What if Germany had more industry during WW2

Dan1988

Dan1988

Even more industry wouldn't have helped. Had Germany have had more industry early on, BEFORE WW2 (such as another area other then the Saar (or is it the Ruhr) where coal could be mined that is much larger), then I could imagine a difference, but with the cartels (like IG Farben) already there during WW2, it wouldn't have made much of a difference, I think.
 

birdy

Interesting to put a face to the name and also an interesting way of getting a scenario across:).

However i dont think a POD in 1939 would give Germany more industry, just prehaps Speer making much better use of what they had, and i have no idea how far that would get them.
 

stevep

hypern said:
Please could someone respond:(
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Hypern

Do you mean respond here or on youtube? Had a quick look and seemed reasonable although I think you had the Germans being a bit too successful under the circumstances. Know they were defeated eventually but you would need to get almost ASB levels of leadership for them to survive after the completion of the Grand Alliance by German DOW on the US in Dec 41. You mention the problem of logistics but this is actually worsened in some ways by the increased production. More production, especially of the important air and mechanised forces, will increase demand for oil and other fuels and products, which the Germans are going to have problems meeting. Don't think the Germans will get deep into the ME because of this, along with the problems of getting past the natural defensive positions such as El Alemein. However in general fairly balanced ideas.

The big doubt I have is the use of nerve gas to take Moscow. Not sure if the Germans had any sizeable stockpiles by 41 or if Hitler would have been prepared to use it under those conditions. Even more to the point it would probably mean a shorter if bloodier war as Britain had made clear that any use of gas, including against Russia would be retaliated against. Given that Bomber Command was coming into its full strength by this time, the US almost certainly entering the war and the lack of protection for the German population I could see German war production plummeting in 42 as major gas attacks devastate their industrial areas.

Steve
 

Ward

hypern
One thing ypu and most members forget is Germany used a lot of horses to carry supplys and move there arty . Horses hate Gas masks and are hard to work when they have them on . That is the main reason the Germans did not use Gas Warfare in WWII . Also the German army did not build enough replacment parts for there trucks . That is the main reason the Germans lost the War in Russia . The did not have the logdics tail they needed to keep there army going .
 

The Dean

This way of presenting a Timeline actually is an interesting idea, leading to the use of video and animation. Although it will be of more use to the more media competent forum users than an old dinosaur like me. :D
 

Temujin

I think more manpower and a better logistics system is going to give them a bigger chance (didn't Hitler think the use of gas was morally wrong?)

Nice to see people utilizing the web, although I prefer it in text form because I could have read it a lot quicker (and re-read it)
 

DominusCounterfacticity

A higher level of industrialization requires a higher level of fossil fuels.

In fact, I do wonder if a more fuel-dependent Germany would have made the disastor of Stalingrad and the failure to gain access to Caucasian/Caspian oil even more disasterous when the shortages hit home.

But perhaps a more rigerous industrial base during the 30s could have pulled more countries dependent on depression-era German commerce and exports into the Nazi camp- key tide-turning allies like Spain, Turkey, and Norway. These especially may have allowed for a successful Operation Barbarossa and perhaps the effective launch of Operation Sea Lion.
 

ironram

Interesting.
Rommel pushes all the way to Baku, eh? This would be difficult to achieve, even if he plows on through Arabia. The prospect of Germany fighting a war in the southern Caucasus against the Soviet Union is not as war-winning as one may assume. It might actually give the Allies who are sitting in Persia a task to do--namely strike the Nazis's flank. Assuming this occurs in 1942, then the German offensive into the northern Caucasus is just getting underway. If a large part of Rommel's army is isolated by the Persian attack, then there is a good chance that it would be surrounded and destroyed. Of course, knowing Rommel, he may attempt some wonderful campaign in the Caucasus mountains, eluding his pursuers in the hopes to link up with his only hope, the German Sixth Army . . .
just in time to be provide much needed reinforcements at Stalingrad. Nazis take the city, gain access to the Volga, and give Rommel another beautiful victory (though at this stage I am positive that Germany has already suffered irreparable losses).
But we can't forget the rest of Rommel's army, which when united was a terribly weak force. Now it is lacking the Desert Fox's leadership, and missing a large portion of its fighting force, conducts a fighting withdrawal back through Arabia. Reinforcements from India soon pour in, hastening the German withdrawal. The hypothetical commander of these troops,we'll say Von Arnim, lays out a defensive line at the Golan Heights. He is defeated like Rommel at El Alamein in OTL, and pushed across the Suez.

How's this? Note: I severely doubt the possibility of Rommel weaving his way around Soviet Divisions and mountain passes all the way to Stalingrad with a severely depleted force. I just included it because it seemed like it would be a fascinating idea----Rommel the Sherpa.:D
 

esl

Rommel force was sent to africa to shore up Mussolini failure in 1940. At the height of that campaign they needed logistics comparable to 1/6th the tonnage sent to russia in 41. That means the same effort in Russia could have supported something like two dozen divisions ,of which 6 could be motorised or panzer.

Instead of taking the long way around , they should have cut a deal with Turkey and moved through Romania/Hungry/Turkey exchanging infantry divisions for Italian & German mountain & Airborne divisions destine for the Balkan fiasco [in many ways worse for italy anyways]. Instead they could launched an invasion from Turkey through the valley to Baku....as part of Operation Barbarossa. In the winter 41/42, they could advance north to Stalingrad or south to the Middle East Oil.

As it was train lines in Turkey had been expanded through the 1930s bringing them to within ~100 miles of the soviet boarder/railines. So supply line could be established without too much loss.No way the soviets would have been able to stop them even if they could put up stiff resistance in the mountain ranges between Baku and the Turkish Soviet boarder. They out numbered the Germans less than the divisions facing Barbarossa and most divisions had just been formed weeks or months before.

As a side matter german fuel problems could have been alleviated in many ways. Historically they didn't really factor in until the expanses of Russia so we don't need a hugh change in fuel to relieve that problem. Historical prewar plan was to stockpile millions of tons of fuel in anticipation of total war. This included 1.5 million tons gasoline , but historically only 1/2 of this was stockpiled since that was something Hitler refused to consider.
Rationing the civilian economy for couple years ahead of the war could have allowed these fuel tanks to be topped up giving them sufficent fuel to ride the wave through 1942.

Next obvious choice would been to have diverted the massive funding labor and resources that flooded the Nazi building projects and Fortifications like the Westwall and autobahn prewar. German Generals of the day were already questioning the logic of the Autobahn since it consumed nearly as much as was spent on armaments in the years before the war. Historically the bulk of all logistics and divisional movements were by rail anyway and that suffered to build the autobahn. Instead syphoning off enough to redress the rail shortfalls and diverting the rest into expanded synthetic fuel programme could have netted them an additional 1-2 million tons by war time and 6 million tons by 1941/42. Stockpiling this excess in the late 1930s early 1940s would have allowed them to top up these fuel tanks in the blitzkrieg phase of the war.
 

The Dean

esl said:
Next obvious choice would been to have diverted the massive funding labor and resources that flooded the Nazi building projects and Fortifications like the Westwall and autobahn prewar. German Generals of the day were already questioning the logic of the Autobahn since it consumed nearly as much as was spent on armaments in the years before the war. Historically the bulk of all logistics and divisional movements were by rail anyway and that suffered to build the autobahn. Instead syphoning off enough to redress the rail shortfalls and diverting the rest into expanded synthetic fuel programme could have netted them an additional 1-2 million tons by war time and 6 million tons by 1941/42. Stockpiling this excess in the late 1930s early 1940s would have allowed them to top up these fuel tanks in the blitzkrieg phase of the war.
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That is a point I am trying to make in my transport based TL. The Western Allies and the Red Army managed to out supply the third Reich without the use of an Autobahn, Freeway or Motorway system. These lumps of infrastructure are extravagant wastes of resources that have created more problems than solutions.
 

esl

09camaro said:
Hitlers Generals werent planningfor war in 1939, they were planning for the war to start by the mid 40's
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But Hitler had other ideas and as such deviated from the basic strategic plan from about 1936 on. From that point on the mid 1940s war strategy was kaput!
 

Blink56

Banned
Well since the guy that started this thread has been banned, I think that it time to chane some assumpations.

Well let's say that Germany had cout down on the Autohabns and the other things that we can consider usless to the millitary effort. We have the German War industry focus primarily on buliding tank, planes and trucks. We still have the German government go through all the motion of acquiring land up to the end of 1938.

Then we let the ball roll, we have a better industrial base with better management and better logistics. Also, we have a more healthly Hitler, which means a better government and a better Germany.

What would happen next ?
 
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