What if a different Louis XIV, Louis the Builder, not Louis the Fighter?

[raharris1973]

What if Louis XIV had a very different career, avoiding wars, especially non-colonial wars, wars of expansion or choice, wars with European opponents, whenever possible, and focused on building the wealth of the French court, bureaucracy, nation, and overseas empire where it existed and expanded into what Europeans regarded as terra nullius?

For this let's just say Louis is a different individual boy entirely, sired by the same parents, but conceived from different gametes at a different moment, lacking the same warlike character. But he has so many traits in common with the Louis we know. He thinks he's the state. He's domineering over the nobility and the Estates. He is politically determined and ruthless. Fashionable, athletic, and vigorous and fearless. He is not a slouch in military affairs, in terms of national defense or internal security, and is willing to Vauban the crap out of the borders, and willing to fund a seriously competitive Navy for trade protection, expansion, and battle, if it comes down to it. He is also not averse to diplomatic and legal and marital bets on territorial expansion in his lifetime or the future, but he's not ready to throw good money after bad for prolonged periods, or toss away compromises that give him multiple slices of a full loaf.

What is the impact of this cooler, calmer, more cautious, Louis XIV on France, Europe, and the world of 1651-1715?

 

[Atrahasis]

He is also not averse to diplomatic and legal and marital bets on territorial expansion in his lifetime or the future, but he's not ready to throw good money after bad for prolonged periods, or toss away compromises that give him multiple slices of a full loaf.

Given this condition, then I think he would do pretty much the same (conflict with the Habsburgs is unavoidable), until the Franco-Dutch war, where he would accept the 1672 peace proposal, France gets the Generality Lands and 10 million guelders (in this scenario Louis would certainly allow Vauban to fortify the hell out of this lands). This money and what was not invested in the rest of the war could be invested in the navy and colonial projects. A later war with Spain will happen, but thanks to the Generality Lands the Spanish Netherlands would easily be overrun; it's impossible for Spain to keep the Franche-Comte, so it would be overrun.

France would probably give more focus in settling New France, which is great; this might be an stretch, but there's the possibility of Louis promoting the settling of protestants in America, instead of Fontainebleau.

 

[raharris1973]

Given this condition, then I think he would do pretty much the same (conflict with the Habsburgs is unavoidable), until the Franco-Dutch war, where he would accept the 1672 peace proposal, France gets the Generality Lands and 10 million guelders (in this scenario Louis would certainly allow Vauban to fortify the hell out of this lands). This money and what was not invested in the rest of the war could be invested in the navy and colonial projects. A later war with Spain will happen, but thanks to the Generality Lands the Spanish Netherlands would easily be overrun; it's impossible for Spain to keep the Franche-Comte, so it would be overrun.

France would probably give more focus in settling New France, which is great; this might be an stretch, but there's the possibility of Louis promoting the settling of protestants in America, instead of Fontainebleau.

I think Catholics are perfectly fine as settlers. Especially if he's not getting them killed off as fast on campaign, deploying them away from their wives, or throwing them into war-related production. The trope of Huguenots being the missing secret sauce of French colonization is one of my AH pet peeves. France was the most populous country in Europe, with only a small fraction of its millions actually being Protestant.

 

[Atrahasis]

I think Catholics are perfectly fine as settlers. Especially if he's not getting them killed off as fast on campaign, deploying them away from their wives, or throwing them into war-related production. The trope of Huguenots being the missing secret sauce of French colonization is one of my AH pet peeves. France was the most populous country in Europe, with only a small fraction of its millions actually being Protestant.

I have to admit it's overused, I guess it's because it worked for Britain, since they expelled their problematic population to Australia and the Thirteen Colonies. It probably is because it's much harder to convince non-persecuted people to migrate from their homeland, than it's with persecuted populations. But it would certainly be interesting for France to have it's own method of colonization, also different from the extremely conservative Spanish and Portuguese model that made their colonies sparsely populated.

 

[Avrorrange]

I have to admit it's overused, I guess it's because it worked for Britain, since they expelled their problematic population to Australia and the Thirteen Colonies. It probably is because it's much harder to convince non-persecuted people to migrate from their homeland, than it's with persecuted populations. But it would certainly be interesting for France to have it's own method of colonization, also different from the extremely conservative Spanish and Portuguese model that made their colonies sparsely populated.

Only parts of the Australian settlers, mostly the initial ones, were convicts. The bulk of the settlers came due to the gold rush and economic prosperity.

Also not sure you could say that the Spanish and Portuguese colonies were sparsely populated.

 

[Atrahasis]

Also not sure you could say that the Spanish and Portuguese colonies were sparsely populated.

I mean European settlers

 

[Avrorrange]

I mean European settlers

I dunno about Spain in detail,which I do believe had a sizeable migration,but between late 17th century to early 18th century, some 400,000 Portuguese European settlers migrated to Brazil. This is astounding considering the population of Portugal itself was only around 2 million.

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

What if Louis XIV had a very different career, avoiding wars, especially non-colonial wars, wars of expansion or choice, wars with European opponents, whenever possible, and focused on building the wealth of the French court, bureaucracy, nation, and overseas empire where it existed and expanded into what Europeans regarded as terra nullius?

For this let's just say Louis is a different individual boy entirely, sired by the same parents, but conceived from different gametes at a different moment, lacking the same warlike character. But he has so many traits in common with the Louis we know. He thinks he's the state. He's domineering over the nobility and the Estates. He is politically determined and ruthless. Fashionable, athletic, and vigorous and fearless. He is not a slouch in military affairs, in terms of national defense or internal security, and is willing to Vauban the crap out of the borders, and willing to fund a seriously competitive Navy for trade protection, expansion, and battle, if it comes down to it. He is also not averse to diplomatic and legal and marital bets on territorial expansion in his lifetime or the future, but he's not ready to throw good money after bad for prolonged periods, or toss away compromises that give him multiple slices of a full loaf.

What is the impact of this cooler, calmer, more cautious, Louis XIV on France, Europe, and the world of 1651-1715?

France might not be as keen on fighting wars but he would still do it as fighting the Habsburgs was seen as necessary to prevent France from being encircled, had Louis not invested as much in the military as IOTL he would've been seen as not a threat and therefore wars in Europe will continue to be a Habsburgs vs all, although becoming a naval power would antagonize the UK and the Low-lands so once France becomes too powerful on the seas they might support the Habsburgs to defeat their major opponent.
In the long run this "building" strategy would help France as it would be much richer than OTL and its enemies would be poorer.

 

[unprincipled peter]

I think Catholics are perfectly fine as settlers. Especially if he's not getting them killed off as fast on campaign, deploying them away from their wives, or throwing them into war-related production. The trope of Huguenots being the missing secret sauce of French colonization is one of my AH pet peeves. France was the most populous country in Europe, with only a small fraction of its millions actually being Protestant.

Agreed.
What is required is leadership that works to build the colonial sphere, which means policy change and funding to encourage migration.

If we're dreaming of a different XIV, better treatment of the Huguenots would be nice. Sans prosecution, they ceased to be a threat. There's no reason the Huguenots couldn't be part of the empire. Certainly, by 1700, a lot of strife and diaspora could be avoided.

 

[unprincipled peter]

This alt Louis, being so aggressive politically, will still have some military itch. Here, instead of it being the hallmark of an era -being in a constant state of preparing for war,being at war, or recovering from war - XIV uses the military more sparingly. Border expansion isn't automatically a bad thing.

the two BIG wars are the 9 Yr War and the War of Spanish Succession.

The 9YW can easily be avoided, or diminished. Butterflies include a much better response to the great famine of mid 1690s, during which millions died. There's millions available for building.

WoSS: with no 9YW, the run-up to WoSS will go differently. Everything has a good probability/possibility to be very, very different.

these couple of decades have the potential to completely change the course of history.

 

[raharris1973]

France might not be as keen on fighting wars but he would still do it as fighting the Habsburgs was seen as necessary to prevent France from being encircled, had Louis not invested as much in the military as IOTL he would've been seen as not a threat and therefore wars in Europe will continue to be a Habsburgs vs all, although becoming a naval power would antagonize the UK and the Low-lands so once France becomes too powerful on the seas they might support the Habsburgs to defeat their major opponent.
In the long run this "building" strategy would help France as it would be much richer than OTL and its enemies would be poorer.

Maybe with less “pushiness”, even with a bigger navy, Dutch Republic *never* becomes an enemy. England under Commonwealth, Protectorate, and Charles II, did not war with France. That’s several fewer enemies. Trying to take over Spanish Empire via inheritance would be a thing uniting others against France.

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

Maybe with less “pushiness”, even with a bigger navy, Dutch Republic *never* becomes an enemy. England under Commonwealth, Protectorate, and Charles II, did not war with France. That’s several fewer enemies. Trying to take over Spanish Empire via inheritance would be a thing uniting others against France.

At the time maritime empires inevitably ended up fighting each other for dominance over the seas and for colonies.
The biggest advantage of France is that it has more resources than UK and Netherlands and the fact that while dedicating most of its efforts on naval dominance it can still be a decent continental power, also without Louis' expansionist wars Philip d' Anjou is never made King of Spain.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Would a way to create this Louis XIV be a surviving Balthasar Carlos in Spain? Perhaps he and his dad switch death dates, but even if they don't, BC surviving means Louis XIV 's claims on half the Spanish empire from 1665 due to an unpaid dowry are gone since his wife is no longer the nearest heir.

This isn't to say that Louis XIV won' t go to war for those regions-as pointed out-but a healthy adult king (likely with at least two surviving kids) succeeding in 1665 instead of a sickly child with an unpopular/incapable regent, would be a major change

 

[Grand Duchess]

Would a way to create this Louis XIV be a surviving Balthasar Carlos in Spain? Perhaps he and his dad switch death dates, but even if they don't, BC surviving means Louis XIV 's claims on half the Spanish empire from 1665 due to an unpaid dowry are gone since his wife is no longer the nearest heir.

This isn't to say that Louis XIV won' t go to war for those regions-as pointed out-but a healthy adult king (likely with at least two surviving kids) succeeding in 1665 instead of a sickly child with an unpopular/incapable regent, would be a major change

Butterflying the War of Spanish Succession would certainly be better for everyone I imagine, though it might also just be kicked down the road because the Hapsburgs just could not seem to help themselves when it came to intermarrying.

France won the war but it cost them in the long run, might keep the monarchy around a bit more though I know that financial struggles were only one part of many issues with the monarchy by the time of the revolution - including the system Louis XIV created in Versailles, which would still be in place.

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

Louis XIV was a builder. A very large percentage of France's military budge went towards Vauban's fort building projects across the country. Vauban also was in charge of some major civilian infrastructure projects as well, rebuilding many of France's port facilities, canals, and roads networks.

Perhaps Vauban could persuade King Louis to devote less money to a field army and divert it to engineering projects (Vauban was a big believer in developing civilian infrastructure as the best way to support the military).

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Butterflying the War of Spanish Succession would certainly be better for everyone I imagine, though it might also just be kicked down the road because the Hapsburgs just could not seem to help themselves when it came to intermarrying.

Even if Balthasar Carlos DID marry Mariana of Austria, they'd only be first cousins (where Louis XIV through Louis XV, all French kings married descendants of Henri IV). Chances that BC and Mariana could have a healthy son are actually better than Louis XIV's (who married his double first cousin). Provided that the French don't have a daughter available to marry BC's son, he'd marry someone non-Habsburg since the only archduchesses available would be the daughters of Ferdinand III and his third wife (who would also be the boy's aunts- a no-no under canon law). Unless Ferdinand IV survives and has daughters, in which case Ferdinand's likeliest bride is Henrica Dorothea of Darmstadt (sister to the Neuburg bunch's mom). So foreign blood again. If BC's son marries French, the only girls available are the daughters of Gaston d'Orléans (first cousin once removed). In short, compared with Le Grand Dauphin who married his second cousin, le Petit Dauphin who married a girl who was his cousin through both her parents, the Spanish Habsburgs would be comparably foreign (not counting if they marry a Medici, d'Este, or something)

 

[Nuraghe]

Would a way to create this Louis XIV be a surviving Balthasar Carlos in Spain? Perhaps he and his dad switch death dates, but even if they don't, BC surviving means Louis XIV 's claims on half the Spanish empire from 1665 due to an unpaid dowry are gone since his wife is no longer the nearest heir.

This isn't to say that Louis XIV won' t go to war for those regions-as pointed out-but a healthy adult king (likely with at least two surviving kids) succeeding in 1665 instead of a sickly child with an unpopular/incapable regent, would be a major change

also allow the reforms begun under the last years of Philip IV and then largely continued under Carlos II, to really continue ( in Otl at a certain point the fights between the Austrian and French factions paralyzed the court of Madrid, especially when they saw that the sovereign could not have heirs and his government was weak, practically starting from around 1680s except for rare cases or military campaigns, everything else was in a kind of stasis waiting to see what would be decided in Paris and Vienna ) therefore a healthy BC with children allows Habsburg Spain to face the 18th century with more confidence and possibly with less internal pressure ( given that there would have been nothing comparable to the WoSS, but obviously we will have to deal with the Aragonese question, given the notable imbalance between Castile and the rest of the composite monarchy, which was a cause of the " Spanish decline " )

 

[Grand Duchess]

Even if Balthasar Carlos DID marry Mariana of Austria, they'd only be first cousins (where Louis XIV through Louis XV, all French kings married descendants of Henri IV). Chances that BC and Mariana could have a healthy son are actually better than Louis XIV's (who married his double first cousin). Provided that the French don't have a daughter available to marry BC's son, he'd marry someone non-Habsburg since the only archduchesses available would be the daughters of Ferdinand III and his third wife (who would also be the boy's aunts- a no-no under canon law). Unless Ferdinand IV survives and has daughters, in which case Ferdinand's likeliest bride is Henrica Dorothea of Darmstadt (sister to the Neuburg bunch's mom). So foreign blood again. If BC's son marries French, the only girls available are the daughters of Gaston d'Orléans (first cousin once removed). In short, compared with Le Grand Dauphin who married his second cousin, le Petit Dauphin who married a girl who was his cousin through both her parents, the Spanish Habsburgs would be comparably foreign (not counting if they marry a Medici, d'Este, or something)

So we basically could see the flipping of the inbreeding issue between France and Spain?

Of course I know it is not that simple and Charles II was extremely unlucky since his sister did not have the same problems born from the same parents - but it is interesting to think of.

Though with a different Louis XIV, focused on different things, marriages could end up differently for Le Grand and petit. Not saying it is likely, just possibly could happen. I know there had been talking of Mary II of England being married to him.

 

[Valena]

Even if Balthasar Carlos DID marry Mariana of Austria, they'd only be first cousins (where Louis XIV through Louis XV, all French kings married descendants of Henri IV). Chances that BC and Mariana could have a healthy son are actually better than Louis XIV's (who married his double first cousin). Provided that the French don't have a daughter available to marry BC's son, he'd marry someone non-Habsburg since the only archduchesses available would be the daughters of Ferdinand III and his third wife (who would also be the boy's aunts- a no-no under canon law). Unless Ferdinand IV survives and has daughters, in which case Ferdinand's likeliest bride is Henrica Dorothea of Darmstadt (sister to the Neuburg bunch's mom). So foreign blood again. If BC's son marries French, the only girls available are the daughters of Gaston d'Orléans (first cousin once removed). In short, compared with Le Grand Dauphin who married his second cousin, le Petit Dauphin who married a girl who was his cousin through both her parents, the Spanish Habsburgs would be comparably foreign (not counting if they marry a Medici, d'Este, or something)

In the scenario when the Prince of Asturias to ATL Carlos II is born in 1657, a designated wife for him for Austrian alliance would come from Tyrolean Habsburgs. Claudia Felicitas of Tyrol is the only Habsburg in the market.
Ferdinand III was fine with a single alliance, so Leopold or Ferdinand are unlikely to marry Maria Theresa.

 

[Valena]

Though with a different Louis XIV, focused on different things, marriages could end up differently for Le Grand and petit. Not saying it is likely, just possibly could happen. I know there had been talking of Mary II of England being married to him.

Mary II is of the same degree of relation as what he did marry (just a switch of second cousins around). Though Mary has some commoner blood and no inbred grandparents.