What did Hitler hope to achieve with the DoW on USA ?

[skarosianlifeform]

I know the various alleged reasons why he declared war on the USA (which revolve around his ego or the undeclared naval conflict that already existed or hatred for "the Jews behind American banks").

But what did he hope to achieve ? He (and everyone else) knew that he could not invade the USA or bomb them. He could not even threaten their merchant or transport marine either, not for long. Moreover, the USA (by themselves and trading with other American countries) could survive without trading much through the Atlantic.

So no matter what happened, the USA could keep mobilizing men, build boats, planes, tanks and weapons (for themselves and others). Keep sending them to Britain and Russia. Keep attacking Europe and French/Italian colonies. Come back if they failed.

How did he plan (or his generals) to deal with that ? And what war goals ? Get the US to stop any lend-lease ?

 

[The Red]

He could not even threaten their merchant or transport marine either, not for long.

Given that the quasi-war in the Atlantic was imminently going to become a de jure affair, it was better to hit the American merchant marine whilst it was still exposed. It was also hoped that making the first move against the United States in support of Japan might motivate the Japanese to tear up their non-aggression pact with the Soviets.

 

[cra0422]

My guess is that he figured America would be so busy fighting Japan they wouldn't focus on Germany, plus he was becoming increasingly divorced from reality and figured that the "mongrel Americans" wouldn't be able to fight against "Aryan superiority".

 

[DaveBC]

Hitler believed the war with the U.S. was inevitable anyways, and that seemed like a good time to declare it, since it was a strong expression of support for the Japanese.

From his perspective, there was already a shooting war involving the U.S. in the Atlantic and, the first go-around in 1914-1918, this did eventually lead to U.S. entry into the war. Of course, absent the Zimmerman telegrapm in the first instance and the Hitler declaration in the second, Germany might at least have bought itself a little extra breathing room, but that is only my opinion as an uninformed amateur dilettante. I am no master diplomatic strategist like Hitler.

Obviously the other benefit is that it can lull scads of American divisions into Britain where they will be surrounded and forced to surrender when Hitler launches Operation Super Sea Lion 2.0.

 

[Craig]

I'll never forget when I had a (West) German roommate while a student at the University of Colorado-Boulder in the early 1980s. One Friday he announced that he would ride his motorcycle to Yellowstone National Park for the weekend. The distance (by car) works out to be about 600 miles (or 964.00 kilometers). When he got back, he wistfully exclaimed that he "never expected it (Wyoming) to be so BIG!"

I suspect that Hitler had no real idea of the sheer size of the United States. Or that it (unlike the USSR) was not the intractable wilderness that was Siberia, but fully populated. That the US was a nation the size of a continent, with the population of a continent was simply not part of his mental map.

 

[wcv215]

I'll never forget when I had a (West) German roommate while a student at the University of Colorado-Boulder in the early 1980s. One Friday he announced that he would ride his motorcycle to Yellowstone National Park for the weekend. The distance (by car) works out to be about 600 miles (or 964.00 kilometers). When he got back, he wistfully exclaimed that he "never expected it (Wyoming) to be so BIG!"

Wyoming is larger than West Germany, so...

 

[Asp]

Hitler believed the war with the U.S. was inevitable anyways, and that seemed like a good time to declare it, since it was a strong expression of support for the Japanese.

From his perspective, there was already a shooting war involving the U.S. in the Atlantic and, the first go-around in 1914-1918, this did eventually lead to U.S. entry into the war. Of course, absent the Zimmerman telegrapm in the first instance and the Hitler declaration in the second, Germany might at least have bought itself a little extra breathing room, but that is only my opinion as an uninformed amateur dilettante. I am no master diplomatic strategist like Hitler.

Obviously the other benefit is that it can lull scads of American divisions into Britain where they will be surrounded and forced to surrender when Hitler launches Operation Super Sea Lion 2.0.

The major reason was that the U.S. was already arming up, mobilizing, shipping material to Britain, and sinking u-boats, so it was better to start hitting the U.S. merchant fleet immediately since Hitler couldn't afford to just leave the shipping alone and sinking it meant war was inevitable at some point.

If he hadn't declared war it wouldn't actually change anything. The U.S. had already reinstituted the draft, passed the Two-Ocean Navy Act, and was bulking up militarily as fast as it could, war having officially begun or not. Even after the declaration it took a very long time (until the end of 1942, roughly a full year), for the U.S. to commit significant forces against the Nazis (the effort began with Operation Torch). Given how badly the U.S. forces performed it could be reasonably said that effective American commitment happened even later than that. If Hitler hadn't gone first we would have been ready to head over by about the same (and war would have happened anyway by the end of 1942; armed U.S. ships enforcing "neutrality" thousands of miles out into the North Atlantic made that inevitable).

On the other hand, waiting until later would have meant the u-boats would have had a much harder time; the Second Happy Time most likely wouldn't have happened. The Kriegsmarine mauled the Allied merchant fleets in the early days; without that things could have ended even faster for Germany.

The decision did make sense.

 

[ar-pharazon]

I've read somewhere Hitler believed the final showdown with the US would occur in the 1980s or something like that. Supposedly by this time Germany would have a navy that could actually take the fight to the shores of the US.

 

[Histor32]

free coke and popcorn refills at the concession stand I think.. on the other hand it was pretty much already a state of war.. that said, keeping the US out full scale only prolongs things. so really it was just coke refills he was after, and he did have a box of war ration coupons he wanted to use up before expiration as well

 

[King Augeas]

To exit the war, Germany must force Britain to terms. This requires closing the Atlantic. This requires cutting US support for Britain. Defeating Britain requires war with the US.

There is a little absurdity in that logic, but it indicates just how terrible Germany's strategic situation was following the battle of Britain.

 

[skarosianlifeform]

So basically, German strategy was

"We close the Atlantic to stop lend-lease to Britain and Soviet Union, we strangle Britain and break Soviet Union, and we hope that strangled Britain comes to the table. Then, we hope that the USA won't continue the war without Britain".

Right ?

 

[History Learner]

Hitler believed the war with the U.S. was inevitable anyways, and that seemed like a good time to declare it, since it was a strong expression of support for the Japanese.

Pretty much this. While the war with the Soviet Union was always the ideological war for National Socialism, the confrontation with the United States was generally recognized as eventual and was expected to be the final battle before the establishment of global hegemony. In essence, the Third Reich basically planned for a Final War with the U.S. but, for the reasons you noted in addition to the morale component of it (The declaration of war was rather well received within the military), decided to kick it off early.

 

[skarosianlifeform]

But still I don't understand : they planned to beat / bloody nose the Americans how ? Japan had the IJN and planned to give enough bloody noses to the USN, so that the US would come to the table. Germany didn't have an equivalent navy.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

But still I don't understand : they planned to beat / bloody nose the Americans how ? ... Germany didn't have an equivalent navy.

It was expected the US would be defeated coming to Germany on the European side of the water. Everyone else in Europe had either been conquered or pushed off to the edges. The US would be the same, with its air forces shot down, its armies driven off or pocketed similar to Dunkirk or Kiev, and any fleets that tried to fight near Europe sunk. Unable to fight where the nazi armies stood the US would be impotent on its continent. This theme appears his speeches and other remarks.

 

[The Red]

But still I don't understand : they planned to beat / bloody nose the Americans how ? Japan had the IJN and planned to give enough bloody noses to the USN, so that the US would come to the table. Germany didn't have an equivalent navy.

The hope was that Japan would divert America's main effort to the Pacific, whilst Germany defeated the Soviet Union, knocked Britain out of the Med and the Middle East, and successfully blockaded the British Isles. The hope wasn't to defeat the United States as much as impress upon them the futility of trying to prevent German hegemony over Europe after all these prior victories had been won.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

... impress upon them the futility of trying to prevent German hegemony over Europe after all these prior victories had been won.

Exactly.

 

[Questerr]

Happy Time part 2 and victory in the Battle of the Atlantic.

 

[Fulton 44]

I have heard that he hoped that declaring war on the USA would induce Japan to attack the USSR in Asia just as the Battle of Moscow was reaching a climax.

 

[Hammerbolt]

I'll never forget when I had a (West) German roommate while a student at the University of Colorado-Boulder in the early 1980s. One Friday he announced that he would ride his motorcycle to Yellowstone National Park for the weekend. The distance (by car) works out to be about 600 miles (or 964.00 kilometers). When he got back, he wistfully exclaimed that he "never expected it (Wyoming) to be so BIG!"

I suspect that Hitler had no real idea of the sheer size of the United States. Or that it (unlike the USSR) was not the intractable wilderness that was Siberia, but fully populated. That the US was a nation the size of a continent, with the population of a continent was simply not part of his mental map.

The japanese made the same mistake. Both axis nations simply could not get to grips with the reality of the US' industrial and manpower capacity, plus the fact that they were completely unable to afect any part of it.

 

[overoceans]

I suspect that Hitler had no real idea of the sheer size of the United States. Or that it (unlike the USSR) was not the intractable wilderness that was Siberia, but fully populated. That the US was a nation the size of a continent, with the population of a continent was simply not part of his mental map.

This discussion of Hitler's illusory view of American geography reminded me of this passage from Lolita(the narrator Humbert has just finished a stint living in the Appalachians)...

I remember as a child in Europe gloating over a map of North America that had “Appalachian Mountains” boldly running from Alabama up to New Brunswick, so that the whole region they spanned--Tennessee, the Virginias, Pennsylvania, New York, Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine, appeared to my imagination as a gigantic Switzerland or even Tibet, all mountain, glorious diamond peak upon peak, giant conifers, le montagnard émigré in his bear skin glory, and Felix tigris goldsmithi, and Red Indians under the catalpas. That it all boiled down to a measly suburban lawn and a smoking garbage incinerator, was appalling. (209-210)

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