Most Nazi Victory scenarios depict the SS as major power players in the politics of the post-war Reich, oftentimes as Himmler's personal goon squad in the inevitable post-Hitler power struggle, but what are the chances that Himmler and the SS just get swept aside beforehand? The rest of Nazi leadership would almost certainly look at the SS with great consternation considering it's effectively a multinational army overseen by Himmler himself, and probably look to nip it in the bud. With that in mind, would a Second Night of the Long Knives be on the docket for a victorious Reich?
What are the Chances the SS Gets Purged in a Nazi Victory Scenario?
- Thread starter SageMirage11
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The conditions are not the same as with the SA. The Brownshirts could be purged in a brief bloodbath because the SA had outlived its usefulness as a 'Party army', was threatening Hitler's deal with the Reichswehr and widely unpopular. Pertinent to note that the SA wasn't disbanded or destroyed. The purge was actually very limited in scale, and the organisation was considered rehabilitated by 1939, though it didn't regain its former importance. Hell, by then they'd reconciled with the Wehrmacht, though they hated the SS and unsuccessfully tried to upstage them in 'settlement policy'.
The SS is a far bigger organisation and, contrary to what popular history often says, was not widely hated by the German public. Its membership was a cross-section of German society, including nobles, farmers, former army generals, academics, and so on. It's going to play a major role in the 'reorganisation' of the East (though it would not be the sole agency, Himmler could not, for example, run roughshood over the Reichskommissars since they also happened to be Gauleiters back in the Reich). SS honorary ranks were popular among civil servants and senior Party functionaries. Himmler was also a good deal smarter than Röhm. Popular history focuses too much on his absurd esoteric obsessions (which he knew were outlandish and thus kept quiet about), and forgets that he was a canny politician with a wide network of connections and assets. Him becoming Führer is a good deal less likely, but he's well-positioned to play kingmaker unless he overreaches, which is obviously also possible. For example, a Führer Speer would likely have very close ties to the SS given how deep his connections with them went. Someone like Bormann would want to get them under control to enforce his partification agenda.
Pertinent to note that while Himmler ran the organisation and moulded it in his image, the SS served the Führer. Promotions to the top ranks needed Hitler's approval. Also Himmler's day-to-day control over the Waffen-SS was pretty limited during wartime. Waffen-SS units in the field came under the operational control of the OKH. Worth noting that theoretically it would be possible to put a leash on Himmler, or Heydrich or whoever is Reichsfüher-SS by just taking away his position as Chief of the German Police...since that's a state office instead of an SS one. Technically, he was dual-hatted as Reichsführer-SS und Chief of the German Police in the Reich Ministry of the Interior. Of course, that would essentially be a declaration of war and not a viable move if he's achieved his long-cherished dream of creating a 'State Protection Corps' (Staatsschutzkorps), that is to say, fully fusing the police with the SS.
And in any event, one needs to define at least the post-war environment a bit more thoroughly. The how and when is important...since it defines who the players and how influential they are.
The SS is a far bigger organisation and, contrary to what popular history often says, was not widely hated by the German public. Its membership was a cross-section of German society, including nobles, farmers, former army generals, academics, and so on. It's going to play a major role in the 'reorganisation' of the East (though it would not be the sole agency, Himmler could not, for example, run roughshood over the Reichskommissars since they also happened to be Gauleiters back in the Reich). SS honorary ranks were popular among civil servants and senior Party functionaries. Himmler was also a good deal smarter than Röhm. Popular history focuses too much on his absurd esoteric obsessions (which he knew were outlandish and thus kept quiet about), and forgets that he was a canny politician with a wide network of connections and assets. Him becoming Führer is a good deal less likely, but he's well-positioned to play kingmaker unless he overreaches, which is obviously also possible. For example, a Führer Speer would likely have very close ties to the SS given how deep his connections with them went. Someone like Bormann would want to get them under control to enforce his partification agenda.
Pertinent to note that while Himmler ran the organisation and moulded it in his image, the SS served the Führer. Promotions to the top ranks needed Hitler's approval. Also Himmler's day-to-day control over the Waffen-SS was pretty limited during wartime. Waffen-SS units in the field came under the operational control of the OKH. Worth noting that theoretically it would be possible to put a leash on Himmler, or Heydrich or whoever is Reichsfüher-SS by just taking away his position as Chief of the German Police...since that's a state office instead of an SS one. Technically, he was dual-hatted as Reichsführer-SS und Chief of the German Police in the Reich Ministry of the Interior. Of course, that would essentially be a declaration of war and not a viable move if he's achieved his long-cherished dream of creating a 'State Protection Corps' (Staatsschutzkorps), that is to say, fully fusing the police with the SS.
And in any event, one needs to define at least the post-war environment a bit more thoroughly. The how and when is important...since it defines who the players and how influential they are.
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Captain Homicide
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Assuming Hitler is still in charge this is extremely unlikely given Himmler’s loyalty, their shared fanaticism and the fact that the SS was set up to be the main enforcers of Nazi ideology and would be eye deep in Generalplan Ost and countless other atrocities if the Reich won.
This is yet another post we’re the OP skips the how to get to the result. But without knowing the ”how” it happened we can’t reasonably discuss the results. As the assumptions one person makes on hwo it happened may look nothing like another’s person how it happened and thus they have a radically different end result.
Very well, the how of the scenario is that after the Nazi victory (Dunkirk, victory at El Alamein, the entire British and Soviet leadership dying of dysentery, whatever victory scenario you like. For context the post-war geopolitical situation in Europe is something akin to Fatherland or Thousand Week Reich), The SS has accrued enough power to the point that is a essentially a continent-spanning paramilitary force and something of a parallel army to the Wehrmacht. With this in mind, Goering, Speer, Borman, Goebbels, and possibly even Hitler himself begin to grow wary of Himmler's growing influence, and decide to cut the SS down to size , possibly with the help of Heydrich or Prince Josias. Before you say this is implausible, keep in mind that all these men were narcissistic megalomaniacs in some shape or form, and them making a move against Himmler and the SS or vice-versa out of either greed, ego, paranoia, or all of the above is hardly outlandish.
Unless they made a deal with the devil so to speak, he is not going to allow a coup against the SS and will preemptively strike.
Neither Himmler nor Heydrich are charismatic in the sense that they can excite people at a rally. They're not good at playing the predestined leader of the Volk, and that's part of the package. Actually, Heydrich is worse at speeches because his high-pitched voice was a pervasive source of embarrassment for him since it made him look 'un-manly'. We have lots of Himmler speeches (he was a dull speaker), but super few Heydrich ones.
Moreover, while neither would want to do something as larpy as creating 'SS-Ordensstaat Germania' (the whole SS strategy is to coopt the state, not become it), the SS trying to monopolise power would upset the apple cart a lot by offending many other stakeholders. The Party bureaucracy, for a time, viewed him as a quasi-ally against common foes, as seen by the strange friendship between him and Bormann, but that changed once he became Interior Minister and initiated a few half-hearted measures to restore the centralised Reich authority that had been eroded by the Gauleiters, who are very important, often underestimated figures.
Himmler taking charge also offends the German army. Now contrary to the many mendacious post-war memoirs, the vast majority of German generals were fine with the Nazi system and not just waiting for Hitler to die so that they could larp as the Kaiserreich. However, they valued the army's institutional autonomy and privileged position in the state as one of its two main pillars (the other being the Party, which was supposed to let the army do its thing). Never mind his and Heydrich's role in the Blomberg-Fritsch shenanigans. There's no evidence Himmler intended to replace the Heer with the Waffen-SS, but he'd definitely want his men to get a more powerful position and do away with the army's autonomy. Which would give his rivals in the Party an opening to shop for allies.
Himmler also wasn't that personally close to Hitler. See, while Himmler was obviously loyal to Hitler and made obedience to the Führer the mantra of the SS, him ending up in the Nazi party didn't have much to do with Hitler. This contrasts with say Göring. Hitler appreciated Himmler's loyalty and liked what he'd done with the SS, but he didn't socialise with the Himmler family. This applies even more to Heydrich, who wasn't close to Hitler at all. His mentor was Himmler.
Of course, Himmler has plenty of assets. The SS has infiltrated the civil service and is bound to play a huge role in 'eastern policy' and it has access to all manners of blackmail material, not to mention control over their security firces. And he's certainly ambitious enough. But he also has the aforementioned disadvantages. It's a bit of a common trope in AH scenarios that the moment Hitler dies Himmler stages an ill-conceived coup and dies, but he wasn't stupid when it came to being a political player in Nazi politics. As a politician he was very skilled and every source mentions his talent as an administrator. He 'just' had stupid and utterly vile beliefs. He definitely has a good chance of being a kingmaker in a contested succession (say if Hitler actually creates the Reich Senate he talked about, leading to all manners of intrigue and backbiting and possibly a deadlocked Führer election).
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A lot would depend on how the Axis win WWII, but in general the SS ends up dominating Germany in these scenarios for a reason. They have a separate army that has the favor of Hitler, were historically in many ways a state within a state, and will be enriching itself with plunder from Russia. @Tolkiene makes good points that while Himmler lacks Hitler's charisma and wasn't especially close to him, he still has the resources and political power needed to become the second Fuhrer, although quite a bit of favors and bribes would need to be passed out to ensure other power players wouldn't knife him.
Is it possible the SS will go overboard in their power and violence? Meaning they will turn inwards looking for enemies, meaning they will cause some sort of "reign of terror" and eventually measures have to be taken to stop them? This either originating from Himmler, Heydrich or the Waffen-SS.