Western Orthodox?

[Spitfire_16]

I am extreamly interested in the Byzantine empire and despite me being not religious at-all, this made me interested in the eastern Orthodox faith.

So could any western European nation ever convert to Orthodoxy? Has there ever been a point in history were this almost happend?

 

[Marc Anthony]

norway under harald III

 

[Spitfire_16]

norway under harald III

Now thats interesting. I never knew the Harald that died at stamford bridge had spent time in Constantinople.

I think the nordic nations and maybe even the scottish or Irish would suit Orthodox. I dont know why. Maybe its the cold assosiation with Russia

 

[ByzantineLover]

Now thats interesting. I never knew the Harald that died at stamford bridge had spent time in Constantinople.

I think the nordic nations and maybe even the scottish or Irish would suit Orthodox. I dont know why. Maybe its the cold assosiation with Russia

Norway and Sweden maybe. Denmark's right on the border of the Holy Roman Empire. Apparently, Cyril and Methodius managed to convert Great Moravia (Bohemia) to Orthodoxy before they ultimately became Catholic, and they had unsuccessful missions towards the Khazars.

 

[LSCatilina]

So could any western European nation ever convert to Orthodoxy? Has there ever been a point in history were this almost happend?

Thing is, you didn't have something like a Catholic/Orthodox clear division originally : think of it as a long separation process from the VIIth to the XIIIth century.
Before and meanwhile, we're basically talking of two variants of a same religion, getting more and more estrangered but not formalized.

And by the time it was clear, there was no incitative to do so for western Europe.

That said, you could have western european countries adopting more of Greek Christianity features, especially with a non-Islam TL which would make Eastern Roman Empire culturally dominant.
But the center of gravity of Latin Christianity was too well established, and the differences too important from the start (basically, the doctrinal and political differences) to have a full conversion would even Byzantines have attempted this (which they didn't in the briefly reconquered provinces)

Scandinavia is often proposed as a possibility on this board, due to the relations with Constantinople : but these relations were far-to-far ones, essentially political rather than cultural AND in a period where the distinction between Latin Christianity (whom center of gravity was definitely more close to the peninsula) and Greek Christianity wasn't that obvious.

Better you could reach, IMO, would be to have an Orthodox-leanign Latin Christianity in Italy, for exemple; not unlike you have Oriental (Orthodox or Others) churches under Roman obedience IOTL.

 

[Byzantion]

I am extreamly interested in the Byzantine empire and despite me being not religious at-all, this made me interested in the eastern Orthodox faith.

So could any western European nation ever convert to Orthodoxy? Has there ever been a point in history were this almost happend?

Southern Italy stays Orthodox, maybe a stronger Byzantine Empire leads to a Orthodox conversion of Lombards instead a Catholic one ? They become vassals of Byzantium and fight against the Catholic Franks, their archenemies ? I may be totally wrong. What would happen to Pope´s Rome in such a case ?

 

[htgriffin]

Hmm... if the Komnenid era did not go pear-shaped and the Empire kept advancing through Anatolia I can see Venice remaining more of a vassal than predator and switching allegiance to the see of Constantinople if Rome gets too controlling. Similarly, Hungary may elect to pay homage to the more distant Patriarchate.

 

[Troyer IV]

Now thats interesting. I never knew the Harald that died at stamford bridge had spent time in Constantinople.

I think the nordic nations and maybe even the scottish or Irish would suit Orthodox. I dont know why. Maybe its the cold assosiation with Russia

He fought in the Varangian Guard if memory serves. Plenty of experience and travel as a mercenary in the East.

 

[Tocomocho]

I got this image of Henry VIII shopping for a Russian bride and converting. Don't know why.

 

[Jurgen Wullenwever]

Southern Sweden did have some traces of Greek Christianity before the Roman one became too strong.

Anyway, could not the Emperor in Constantinople push for reducing the Pope to Patriarch of Rome, and installing a couple more Patriarchs in the West, say in Avignon and Regensburg, to limit the Pope.

 

[LSCatilina]

Southern Italy stays Orthodox, maybe a stronger Byzantine Empire leads to a Orthodox conversion of Lombards instead a Catholic one ?

Again, thinking in terms of Catholic vs. Orthodox makes little sense before the classical Middle Ages.
Byzantines never really bothered at the cultural and doctrinal differences with Latin churches, as long the ones that were under their domination acknowledged imperial dominance.

They become vassals of Byzantium

Vassality as we generally understand it, was appearing by the mid VIIth century in Francia : Lombards structures were significantly different, even if related (would it be, as in most of Merovingian Francia, the distinction between benefici and title).

and fight against the Catholic Franks, their archenemies ?

Which they were not. After the Lombard takeover of Italy, the Regnum Francorum was essentially driven first on an unification trend, and then mostly against peripheries (especially Frisians and Saxons).

What would happen to Pope´s Rome in such a case ?

At this point, the predominant pontifical position among Latin church simply didn't exist yet : that's more a byproduct of the Carolingian era.
I'd expect a longer lasting Exerchate of Ravenna, forcing Lombards back north of Po (roughly), to be significantly autonomous from Constantinople, making the Pope a political factor within Byzantine Italy.

Some sort of intermediary between western kingdoms churches (which would probably keep a "national" character, as in having the high clergy and the king as its head, as a continuity of Late Imperial relation with Christian churches) and Byzantium, maybe, with a strong symbolical significance as to both mark Byzantine influence in Europe but as well distinctiveness of the latter.

Southern Sweden did have some traces of Greek Christianity before the Roman one became too strong.

As far as I know, tough, the first missionaries attempt recorded are Frankish-supported, around the late VIIIth/early IXth century. Onwards from this, Latin pressure was already quite strong.
That said, traces of Greek Christianity there would be far from unthinkable, but I just don't remember about them : do you have some links?

Unless that you were mentioning Greek Christian art and artefacts found there? In this case (but that's so different that I don't think it was what you meant), it's more clues for trade than actual religious presence.

Anyway, could not the Emperor in Constantinople push for reducing the Pope to Patriarch of Rome, and installing a couple more Patriarchs in the West, say in Avignon and Regensburg, to limit the Pope.

By the time the pontifical dominance on Latin churches is a thing, a Byzantine reconquest of Italy in such hostile matter would be doomed to fail at short term.

 

[Fabius Maximus]

Not sure if this would fulfil the OP, but if during the Reformation OTL's Protestant states largely kept to Catholic doctrine excepting Papal supremacy, I think that "Western Orthodoxy" would be a reasonable term for the resulting denominations.

 

[MarkA]

Nearly every pope before the ninth century was Greek. The distinction was not great.

Ireland and by extension Britain followed the so-called Celtic Church and was reconverted to the Roman faith. The Celtic church had much in common with Orthodoxy like the calculation of when Easter should be celebrated and politically how the secular rulers had greater influence over church appointments.

 

[LSCatilina]

Ireland and by extension Britain followed the so-called Celtic Church and was reconverted to the Roman faith.

This so-called Celtic Church was even less different than most other Latin Churches, than these were from Greek Christianities.

On the calculation of Eastern for exemple, it was subject of debate among Irish monasteries, with some favouring Rome's calculation, some not, and many monasteries being themselves divided.

Main differences were liturgic, as they existed among every Latin Church at this point (quite particular differences, I give you that), and ritualistic. But to make them separate from western churches is not grasping the degree of differenciations and mutual porousity that existed in pre-Carolingian Latin Christianity.

 

[Jurgen Wullenwever]

That said, traces of Greek Christianity there would be far from unthinkable, but I just don't remember about them : do you have some links?

Unless that you were mentioning Greek Christian art and artefacts found there? In this case (but that's so different that I don't think it was what you meant), it's more clues for trade than actual religious presence.

The early middle ages are a prehistoric era in these lands, so there is no mention in any sources, but more the case of ornamentation in early Westrogothian churches that are based on eastern church patterns. I think there were other stuff as well, but I do not recall what.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

See also
WI Western Orthodox Church
Morty Vicar


Western Orthodoxy during the Reformation?
Delta Force

AHC. Henry VIII joins the Eastern Orthodox Church.
tallthinkev

Plausibility of an Orthodox Scandinavia
Soverihn

AHC/WI: Orthodox France
Fuego

AHC: More Orthodox Countries
ByzantineMan

Western Uniates
Johannes Parisiensis

Eastern Orthodoxy in medieval Western Europe (Multi-page thread 1 2)
Strategos' Risk


Western Orthodoxy instead of Protestantism
chrispi


Possibly
Poll: What peoples could have plausibly have chosen Greek Orthodox over Latin Christianity? (Multi-page thread 1 2)
raharris1973

 

[Abhakhazia]

I got this image of Henry VIII shopping for a Russian bride and converting. Don't know why.

I had a similar thought, with "Protestants" recognizing the authority of the Patriarchs of Moscow, Constantinople, Jerusalem, etc. while keeping a modified Roman rite. A bit of a reverse Greek Catholicism.

However, you'll probably need stronger Muscovite or Byzantine influence on Central Europe, and I'm not sure it's possible to accomplish this without butterflying the process of the Reformation in general.

 

[frustrated progressive]

Why exactly did the Magyars convert to Catholicism?

 

[Tocomocho]

I had a similar thought, with "Protestants" recognizing the authority of the Patriarchs of Moscow, Constantinople, Jerusalem, etc. while keeping a modified Roman rite. A bit of a reverse Greek Catholicism.

However, you'll probably need stronger Muscovite or Byzantine influence on Central Europe, and I'm not sure it's possible to accomplish this without butterflying the process of the Reformation in general.

Exactly. IIRC Russia/Muscovy and England didn't even have relations (although remarkably good) until a few decades later, under Ivan IV and Elizabeth I.

So the Russian option would require an early ascendance of Muscovy, as well as an earlier, successful Livonian War that gives it access to the Baltic, at least.

Why exactly did the Magyars convert to Catholicism?

Didn't they get trashed by the HRE? Same as the Poles.

 

[Abhakhazia]

Exactly. IIRC Russia/Muscovy and England didn't even have relations (although remarkably good) until a few decades later, under Ivan IV and Elizabeth I.

So the Russian option would require an early ascendance of Muscovy, as well as an earlier, successful Livonian War that gives it access to the Baltic, at least.

Perhaps a more successful Livonian War could lead to a permanent Russian presence in Poland, which could be sort of a testing ground of Latin Orthodoxy?

Another, more unlikely thing, I thought of, is apparent interest by the Archbishop of Canterbury when Peter the Great visited England of a possible reconciliation/union between the Orthodox Church and the Anglican Church. Peter was never really the church type, so this never really got anywhere. I suppose this event could have led to something more for East/West relations in the church, especially if the Anglicans had pursued it more vigorously.