"We never went to the moon" - North Korea edition?

[New Cleo Genesis]

I was wondering, would it be possible for North Korea to fake a moon mission? Not that they could ever fool the outside world, of course, but as far as their own people would go, it might not even be too much of an effort.

(I would actually be surprised if this has never been brought up before on the board, since the Kims are subject to some quite laughable claims by North Korean propaganda anyhow - not that I mean that any of the Kims should be aboard the alleged lander precisely.)

 

[SpaceOrbisGaming]

I was wondering, would it be possible for North Korea to fake a moon mission? Not that they could ever fool the outside world, of course, but as far as their own people would go, it might not even be too much of an effort.

(I would actually be surprised if this has never been brought up before on the board, since the Kims are subject to some quite laughable claims by North Korean propaganda anyhow - not that I mean that any of the Kims should be aboard the alleged lander precisely.)

Anythings possible but if they fuck up once the damage done might not be repairable. Could it somehow lead to him being overthrown that is debatable but it would weaken how the people view him.

 

[New Cleo Genesis]

Anythings possible but if they fuck up once the damage done might not be repairable. Could it somehow lead to him being overthrown that is debatable but it would weaken how the people view him.

True. I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the state of North Korean astronomy circles (probably close to nonexistent), but if anyone not too well known started questioning why e.g. they couldn't observe the moonshot on their own the government probably would find a way to dispose of them.

 

[L4a1]

I don't think it would be that difficult if the book 'Without You, There Is No Us: Undercover Among the Sons of North Korea's Elite' by Suki Kim is any indication.
Suki taught English in North Korea to teenage children of the North Korean Elite, and their world view is so skewed it is almost unbelievable. They have been feed so much North Korea is best propaganda that not only do they believe it but they will make up lies to cover any gaps in the story. But their understanding of the outside world is so poor that anyone from outside can see straight through the lies.

Most North Koreans don't know about the moon landing even today. At the time nothing was mentioned in the Newspapers. The one encyclopedia article they have on Neil Armstrong doesn't mention the word America, only that he was born in Ohio. There is only one other encyclopedia article that mentions that the moon landing took place, then only in passing, and without saying when or by which country.

 

[New Cleo Genesis]

I don't think it would be that difficult if the book 'Without You, There Is No Us: Undercover Among the Sons of North Korea's Elite' by Suki Kim is any indication.
Suki taught English in North Korea to teenage children of the North Korean Elite, and their world view is so skewed it is almost unbelievable. They have been feed so much North Korea is best propaganda that not only do they believe it but they will make up lies to cover any gaps in the story. But their understanding of the outside world is so poor that anyone from outside can see straight through the lies.

Most North Koreans don't know about the moon landing even today. At the time nothing was mentioned in the Newspapers. The one encyclopedia article they have on Neil Armstrong doesn't mention the word America, only that he was born in Ohio. There is only one other encyclopedia article that mentions that the moon landing took place, then only in passing, and without saying when or by which country.

That's actually hilarious - and sad, at the same time. (Also I think I want to read said book some day.)

 

[L4a1]

http://realnewsrightnow.com/2015/12/north-korea-puts-a-man-on-the-moon/
Disclaimer: AFAIK the above article is humor, and North Korea has not actually claimed to have put a man on the moon.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Reminds me of some fake news a few years ago about North Korea landing a man on the Sun.

Anythings possible but if they fuck up once the damage done might not be repairable. Could it somehow lead to him being overthrown that is debatable but it would weaken how the people view him.

And how is anyone in North Korea ever going to find out that it isn't true?

 

[New Cleo Genesis]

Reminds me of some fake news a few years ago about North Korea landing a man on the Sun.

Shame that was not a claim they actually made themselves, otherwise this thread would have been superseded by actual events five years ago already.

 

[Barry Bull]

Reminds me of some fake news a few years ago about North Korea landing a man on the Sun.



And how is anyone in North Korea ever going to find out that it isn't true?

There is actually plenty of DPRK people that travel outside the country for official business, commercial business and studies. Still a minority in terms of the total population, but DPRK is less hermit than outsider expected. The cross border trade with PRC involves many DPRK people.

https://www.northkoreaintheworld.org/economic/north-korean-overseas-workers

Estimates of the number of North Koreans overseas vary considerably. Some researchers, as well as a 2015 report by the UN Special Rapporteur on North Korean Human Rights, cite roughly 50,000 overseas workers. Other analysts have given larger estimates, ranging as high as 120,000 overseas workers. A fact sheet published by the U.S. Mission to the UN in 2017 cites 100,000 overseas workers, bringing in revenue of over $500 million annually.

The reason for this variation hinges mostly on the difficulty of estimating the number of North Korean workers in China. The number of North Koreans legally entering China has increased significantly in recent years, with over 188,000 reported entrants in 2015, including 94,000 entrants identifed as "workers and crew". This may be connected to a reported 2012 informal agreement between Beijing and Pyongyang allowing for an increased number of North Koreans to work in China. However, data on the number of reported entrants does not necessarily reflect the total number of North Korean workers in China. On the one hand, some North Korean workers may have been placed in entry categories other than "workers and crew," and workers might stay longer than one-year periods. One the other hand, it is not clear whether the "worker and crew" category includes transportation workers who may enter China on a routine basis for very short terms, or how often North Korean workers (particularly those stationed in the border area) travel back and forth across the border -- in either case, any given worker would be counted as an "entrant" multiple times in a single year.

Whether these people who ventured outside can spread idea inside DPRK is another matter.

 

[Loki-L]

I depends on the timing I think.

As technology advances faking things becomes easier and cheaper, but at the same time grip the leadership has on the population and the flow of information decreases slightly.

There is of course the problem that nobody could have faked it convincingly with 1960s technology:

Spoiler: video

On the other hand if you are a peasant in North Korea your threshold of convincingly probably was a lot lower a few decades ago than it is now that people actively try to send and broadcast news from the real world into NK.

CGI is easy enough in 2019 and while North Korea may lack the infrastructure of say a native Pixar, they could always print some USD cash and have it done abroad.

The problem will be that there needs to be enough of a kernel of truth to build everything up upon. They do have their Kwangmyŏngsŏng satellites that they have build up to be far more than they really are. They don't really have much that they can show their people and the world to exaggerate into an actual moon landing.

It is a big step from saying that the evil imperialist try to downplay out glorious success to saying that the evil imperialist are laughing about out ridiculous claims.

They can show videos of their space cadets training for future space flight missions while pointing at how the failing south Koreans had to stop their astronaut program after their only astronaut resigned.

With a whole lot of money and little bit of luck and not too much worry about the lives that may be lost in the process they might even get an astronaut of their own, their claimed satellites look big enough that you could in theory put very small human (young adults suffering from childhood malnourishment should not be hard to come by) with not much in the way of life support into a rocket to very briefly put them into space and maybe get one back alive after a few tries. (All the failed attempts never existed or where killed when their spacecraft was seized by evil imperialist after landing.)

Having genuine (for a certain value of genuine) astronauts and having the foreign press confirm that would lay the foundation for future claims of having gone further.

Exaggerating an unmanned probe landing into a full manned landing would be easy for home consumption but an unmanned probe would be beyond them for quite a while still.

Then again there were also reports of North Korean scientist rediscovering a Kiringul the legendary unicorn lair of a mythic Korean king from ancient times. So anything might seem possible. I think though that these and other reports of state media making fantastic claims that locals naively swallow may be exaggerated and not reflect the true state of NK propaganda.

 

[New Cleo Genesis]

I think though that these and other reports of state media making fantastic claims that locals naively swallow may be exaggerated and not reflect the true state of NK propaganda.

Oh yes, I was actually going to say something along the lines of, "the Party would make a 'claim' that the country went to the moon and the people would 'believe' it", if you catch my meaning.