Was it possible that Prussia could continue to exist?

[Kurd Gossemer]

I've always wondered for the possibility that Prussia somehow keeps existing for one reason or another and despite the Allied rhetoric of "Prussian Militarism caused WW1 and WW2", I don't think it's fully impossible for Prussia to keep on going, mainly if Stalin can somehow be convinced as it would weaken Poland(Stalin famously did not like Poles) while also strengthening a East Germany(but they still lose Konigsberg to the USSR), especially if it was further settled by the expelled Germans from the East, while Churchill could be convinced if "abolishing Prussia wouldn't create resentment amongst the German population", the Americans would go with it if both Stalin and Churchill were against it and De Gaulle is easy enough to sidestep given his country was occupied.

Of course I'm probably missing info here and would like further opinions about the possibility of Prussia still being a thing.

 

[LeX]

Not sure whether this is feasible, but I for one think it would be kind of cool if Germany became a constitutional federal monarchy where all the local royalties keep their positions with varying (though minor) degrees of actual power. Naturally this would include Prussia.

Alternatively, have the Soviets only capture East Prussia and it becomes a "Taiwan" to the capitalist "mainland" Germany. While officially titled the German Democratic Republic it is informally called just "Prussia" or "East Prussia." Due to/despite Soviet attempts to suppress "Prussian militarism," there is a rebirth of Prussian identity after the TTL fall of the USSR and the region does not become a part of the FRG.

 

[The Link]

I've always wondered for the possibility that Prussia somehow keeps existing for one reason or another and despite the Allied rhetoric of "Prussian Militarism caused WW1 and WW2", I don't think it's fully impossible for Prussia to keep on going, mainly if Stalin can somehow be convinced as it would weaken Poland(Stalin famously did not like Poles) while also strengthening a East Germany(but they still lose Konigsberg to the USSR), especially if it was further settled by the expelled Germans from the East, while Churchill could be convinced if "abolishing Prussia wouldn't create resentment amongst the German population", the Americans would go with it if both Stalin and Churchill were against it and De Gaulle is easy enough to sidestep given his country was occupied.

Of course I'm probably missing info here and would like further opinions about the possibility of Prussia still being a thing.

Stalin loathed the Poles, but nevertheless he did have some of them under his control. There were the free polish forces assisting the western allies, as well as a massive non-communist resistance in german-occupied Poland, but simultaneously with all of it there was the so called "Union of Polish Patriots", the communist government founded by Stalin and totally obedient to his will. And these polish communists had the forces who assisted the Soviets on the eastern front. When the Soviets rampaged through Poland and eradicated the "reactionary Poles", they gave the power to those Poles about whom Stalin had already known that they are his loyal puppets. Meanwhile... there was noone in Germany yet, the government of East Germany had yet to be formed.

Besides, an additional motivation behind the changes of the borders was the fact that Germany was seen by Stalin as more capable of harming the Soviets, so he wanted Germany as faraway to the west (in a geographic sense) as possible.

 

[CaptainCalvert]

Not sure whether this is feasible, but I for one think it would be kind of cool if Germany became a constitutional federal monarchy where all the local royalties keep their positions with varying (though minor) degrees of actual power. Naturally this would include Prussia.

Alternatively, have the Soviets only capture East Prussia and it becomes a "Taiwan" to the capitalist "mainland" Germany. While officially titled the German Democratic Republic it is informally called just "Prussia" or "East Prussia." Due to/despite Soviet attempts to suppress "Prussian militarism," there is a rebirth of Prussian identity after the TTL fall of the USSR and the region does not become a part of the FRG.

Malaysia is a federation of sultanates, with some process for each state heading the federation by turns, so your suggestion should work for Germany.
There's no particular reason why a federation shouldn't include a mix monarchies, elected presidents or appointed heads of government that share leadership by turns, so there's another interesting option. Indeed, to some extent the EU has elements of this with Heads of State or Government as appropriate to member countries.

 

[KaiserKatze]

I think that there are a lot of ways whereby Prussia could continue to exist.

Pre-WWII Prussia was a Social-Democratic bastion, with successful leadership and the right Nazi blunders, I could see a Prussian-backed revolt against the Nazis similar to what Italy saw against Mussolini. Such a Prussia would lose East Prussia, but could very feasibly keep the rest and also become the backbone of a new Germany.

Another option is if there were more German collaborations for Stalin and simultaneously a more violent Polish resistance. If the Germans are happy to be freed by the Soviets and if that coincides with Poland rising up and attacking the Soviet troops, it might convince Stalin to form East Germany as a Prussian state.

Just a few ideas.

 

[Kurd Gossemer]

Stalin loathed the Poles, but nevertheless he did have some of them under his control. There were the free polish forces assisting the western allies, as well as a massive non-communist resistance in german-occupied Poland, but simultaneously with all of it there was the so called "Union of Polish Patriots", the communist government founded by Stalin and totally obedient to his will. And these polish communists had the forces who assisted the Soviets on the eastern front. When the Soviets rampaged through Poland and eradicated the "reactionary Poles", they gave the power to those Poles about whom Stalin had already known that they are his loyal puppets. Meanwhile... there was noone in Germany yet, the government of East Germany had yet to be formed.

Besides, an additional motivation behind the changes of the borders was the fact that Germany was seen by Stalin as more capable of harming the Soviets, so he wanted Germany as faraway to the west (in a geographic sense) as possible.

I think that's the main problem, East and West Germany weren't a solidified thing yet as Stalin had hopes of a united Neutral Germany IIRC so he wouldn't immediately push for it unless it benefits him somehow, unless of course he somehow finds out early the Allies aren't willing to entertain a united neutral Germany so he pushes for Prussia still being around alongside the part of East Germany he would've already gotten OTL to further match West Germany in strength and population.

I think that there are a lot of ways whereby Prussia could continue to exist.

Pre-WWII Prussia was a Social-Democratic bastion, with successful leadership and the right Nazi blunders, I could see a Prussian-backed revolt against the Nazis similar to what Italy saw against Mussolini. Such a Prussia would lose East Prussia, but could very feasibly keep the rest and also become the backbone of a new Germany.

Another option is if there were more German collaborations for Stalin and simultaneously a more violent Polish resistance. If the Germans are happy to be freed by the Soviets and if that coincides with Poland rising up and attacking the Soviet troops, it might convince Stalin to form East Germany as a Prussian state.

Just a few ideas.

Honestly I could see the second option being the more likely one as already the Polish didn't like the Soviets and combined with some of the unsavory actions of some members of the Red Army, I could definitely see some sort of major uprising occurring that makes Stalin even more weary of Poles, so pushing for Prussia being around+ it being absorbed into the OTL Soviet ocupation zone for a larger East Germany that can match the West one.

 

[KaiserKatze]

Honestly I could see the second option being the more likely one as already the Polish didn't like the Soviets and combined with some of the unsavory actions of some members of the Red Army, I could definitely see some sort of major uprising occurring that makes Stalin even more weary of Poles, so pushing for Prussia being around+ it being absorbed into the OTL Soviet ocupation zone for a larger East Germany that can match the West one.

One added benefit to it would be East Germany being more economically viable and powerful, enough to be a real competitor to the Western half (on paper anyway).

I have a few "short TLs" I have hanging around and may post, and one of them sees the Soviets get stuck in Poland when the Poles violently rise up and attack the invading Soviets, preventing them from taking Berlin before the Allies. The occupation zones were already drawn up, but in this, anger at the Poles + bigger collaboration from the Germans sees Stalin form a Prussian state which keeps the modern East Germany borders plus Pomerania and Silesia. The Soviets take all of East Prussia, not just the North, as well as Danzig, and it becomes a new SSR where he tries to tempt the Jews with a new Jewish SSR.

 

[1962strat]

I have a few "short TLs" I have hanging around and may post, and one of them sees the Soviets get stuck in Poland when the Poles violently rise up and attack the invading Soviets, preventing them from taking Berlin before the Allies. The occupation zones were already drawn up, but in this, anger at the Poles + bigger collaboration from the Germans sees Stalin form a Prussian state which keeps the modern East Germany borders plus Pomerania and Silesia. The Soviets take all of East Prussia, not just the North, as well as Danzig, and it becomes a new SSR where he tries to tempt the Jews with a new Jewish SSR.

The premise is certainly interesting, and Stalin being as mercurial as he was kinda lends itself to drastic changes with little other justification than "he felt like it". The Jewish SSR is interesting, cause unlike the Jewish Oblast I could see it having some measure of success. There were a ton of displaced Jews in the immediate post-war years that had nowhere to go and immigration to Israel was closed, so someone offering them lands could play into that desperation. Most of them would probably rather go to Israel, but at that point that wasn't a certainty and getting out of the camps would be the priority.

I'm not sure about the details, tho. How could you get the Germans to collaborate more and the Poles to try and resist more? I'm also skeptical of how much that could hold the Soviets back in practice, as well.

 

[KaiserKatze]

The premise is certainly interesting, and Stalin being as mercurial as he was kinda lends itself to drastic changes with little other justification than "he felt like it". The Jewish SSR is interesting, cause unlike the Jewish Oblast I could see it having some measure of success. There were a ton of displaced Jews in the immediate post-war years that had nowhere to go and immigration to Israel was closed, so someone offering them lands could play into that desperation. Most of them would probably rather go to Israel, but at that point that wasn't a certainty and getting out of the camps would be the priority.

I'm not sure about the details, tho. How could you get the Germans to collaborate more and the Poles to try and resist more? I'm also skeptical of how much that could hold the Soviets back in practice, as well.

The idea is rough and I'd definitely have to flesh it out more, though I was never going to focus as much on the background and instead have it be more on the direct effects.

The Soviets wouldn't be properly held back so much as delayed, especially if they are crossing through Poland and it disrupts their logistics and forces them to double-back. As for German collaboration, I was thinking that it is more that one of the Gauleiters sees the writing on the wall and tries to collaborate with the Soviets to win a bit of favour. Of course a big part relies on the mercurial nature of Stalin.

As for a Jewish SSR, I thought it'd be interesting since them having the region would not have the internal turmoil of Israel/Palestine and would also be seen as a far more justified territorial handover. I envisioned Germany coming to terms with it more quickly than it did IRL with Poland, and the Two having a very good modern relationship. (Poland, meanwhile, gets the very short end of the stick.)

 

[Sasza]

It's better to create a Jewish Enclave. The Home Army will not attack the Red Army, even if everyone in Poland knew about Katyn or the gulag, after the German terror, Poles seriously thought that things would be better.

 

[RedSword12]

I think a key prerequisite would be a more successful Schwartze Kapelle or something of the sort. To convince Stalin that the Prussians aren't a mortal danger, Prussian officers would have to take real steps on a large scale to betray Hitler. Which is tricky, given their aversion to the prospect of being accused of stabbing Hitler in the back. What you need fundamentally is for the Wehrmacht to at a strategically significant scale throw in the towel, e.g., a successful July 20 Coup followed by an unconditional surrender, something to provide a basis for an analogue to the Clean Wehrmacht myth in the West, to make the idea of Prussia palatable to the Soviets.

 

[1962strat]

What you need fundamentally is for the Wehrmacht to at a strategically significant scale throw in the towel, e.g., a successful July 20 Coup followed by an unconditional surrender, something to provide a basis for an analogue to the Clean Wehrmacht myth in the West, to make the idea of Prussia palatable to the Soviets.

Which is practically impossible. The July Plotters were pretty delusional about what they expected to achieve, and I very much doubt they would be surrendering unconditionally to the Soviets anytime soon.

 

[RedSword12]

Which is practically impossible. The July Plotters were pretty delusional about what they expected to achieve, and I very much doubt they would be surrendering unconditionally to the Soviets anytime soon.

Unlikely is not impossible.

 

[Taco Shark]

The Soviets take all of East Prussia, not just the North, as well as Danzig, and it becomes a new SSR where he tries to tempt the Jews with a new Jewish SSR.

Would Bialystok be kept by the Byelorussian SSR in this scenario?

 

[The Link]

Regarding the idea of the Poles giving the troubles to the Soviets... The problem is, that in OTL the Home Army got the orders from its leadership to do not fight the Soviets and to cooperate with the Red Army - all in a desperate hope to be appreciated by the Soviets. And by the time the soviet "lack of appreciation" became clear, the eastern portions of Home Army got already devastated: the commanders got arrested either killed by the NKVD, and the regular units were forcefully disbanded either incorporated to the communist forces. Those who haven't met this fate yet, could decide to oppose the Soviets (instead of making the Warsaw Uprising), but the Home Army had been already severely weakened.

The only realistic scenario of the Poles giving a truly harsh resistance to the Soviets I can think of, would be if the Home Army chose to oppose the Soviets from the very beginning... in an alliance with Germany. All in the following assumption: "The western allies have just landed in Normandy, now the defeat of Germany is absolutely certain. We don't need to worry about the Germans anymore, because they will lose anyway, so let's at least prevent the Soviets from taking over Poland".

 

[KaiserKatze]

Would Bialystok be kept by the Byelorussian SSR in this scenario?

Likely, yes.

 

[The Link]

Would Bialystok be kept by the Byelorussian SSR in this scenario?

Likely, yes.

It depends. In OTL Stalin had to give Białystok back to Poland, because his propaganda announced that the reason why he's taking away Kresy, is to fulfill the Curzon Line. All to create an illusion that it's not any imperialism, but merely fulfilling the british idea from the past. And it just happened that Białystok was west of the Curzon Line.

If the Poles chose to militarily oppose the Soviets (contrary to what some people say, in OTL the polish resistance wasn't by any means aggressive), then he can present the Poles as aggressive "and thus deserving the punishment". But otherwise, he has to keep playing his own game.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

Avoid World War 2.

 

[Lalli]

Avoid World War 2.

This is about only way. Or then nazis win the war.