War without the Nazi's

Fenwick

Fenwick

Assume for a second that all the trouble the Weimer Republic had, just sorted itself out. Now with the threat of the Nazi's gone, how does the world work?

1.) Italy and Ethiopia? Do they still go for it, or does England and France quickly say no?

2.) Soviets and the Baltic states? Without Germany in place, would Russia ever attempt to regain its former lands?

3.) Japan and China? Without the threat of Germany, would the western world leave China alone like it did?

4.) Spanish Civil War? Who would win this?
 

Cherico

Banned
Ethiopia isnt that big a concern to france and Britian so Im sure
they would let Italy get thrashed there.

Russia would try to get back its former lands regardless of the fact
that germany wasnt facist. They wanted there old territory back.

Japan would have to behave itself or get curbstomped by Britian
France the Dutch and america at the same time.
They would keep mancuria but have to get out of china.

I dont know the civil war was a close ran thing the republicans might
win with out the nazis tilting the balance but you have to keep in mind
Italy is a firm franco supporter. It all depends on luck I guess.
 

alt_historian

Whn exactly?

@ Fenwick: when do the Weimar Republic's troubles get sorted out?

Is the POD here in the immediate post-WWI period/early 1920s, in the late '20s, or after the Great Depression?

For what appears to be a good example of the second situation, take a look at SteveW's TL, Jarres Goes For It.
 
Fenwick

Fenwick

alt_historian said:
@ Fenwick: when do the Weimar Republic's troubles get sorted out?

Is the POD here in the immediate post-WWI period/early 1920s, in the late '20s, or after the Great Depression?

For what appears to be a good example of the second situation, take a look at SteveW's TL, Jarres Goes For It.
Click to expand...

Uhhh... between 1929 and 1935 someone comes to power and stabilize's the economy. No single party, democracy is still strived for within Germany.
 

Tom_NUFC

Cherico said:
Ethiopia isnt that big a concern to france and Britian so Im sure
they would let Italy get thrashed there.
Click to expand...

The Italian invasion of Abyssinia was something that both Britain and France were opposed to. It was seen as seriously contributing to the collapse of the 'Stresa Front' (the Anglo-Franco-Italian alliance) and Mussolini's seeking of an alliance with Hitler.

This is something that I've been thinking of for many years, and gradually I'm writing a story in which Private Henry Tandey shoots Hitler at Marcoing in September 1918.

The idea is that without Hitler, the Deutscher Arbeiter Partei remain one of many small parties of the extreme right. The right remains fractured, and so the German people turn to the Communists as their saviours from Germany's socio-economic ills.

Basically, the idea is that during the inter-war period, Communism was regarded as a bigger danger than fascism. A large part of the reason for the policy of appeasement towards the Nazis was that Hitler was admired by many as a strong man getting his country back on it's feet and standing up to Communism.

If the Nazis or another far-right alternative aren't there. Germany goes Communist, quite possibly forms an alliance with the USSR.

The USSR and Germany aid the Republicans in the Spanish civil war, meaning a Republican victory with the dominant Communists taking power in Spain. That's going to make France uneasy with Communists to the east and west, and suffering as it did from unstable, shortlived government administrations and waves of strikes. Also, the countries of Central and Eastern Europe, such as Poland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary are going to feel uneasy with the Soviets to the east and a Communist Germany to the west.

I think somewhere there could easily have been a confrontation or war.
It would have been very different - perhaps not as brutal as our WW2 (an absence of the Jewish holocaust for example), but I think even without the Nazis its very possible war would have occured anyway, because the terms of Treaty of Versailles were harsh and as a result was going to foster hostility and hatred on both sides (particularly amongst the French and Germans).
 

alt_historian

Fenwick said:
Uhhh... between 1929 and 1935 someone comes to power and stabilize's the economy. No single party, democracy is still strived for within Germany.
Click to expand...

Oh, right. It's tricky to do that late. Maybe if Hitler gets impatient, the Nazi Brownshirts go for another coup attempt, which gets utterly crushed (I know, unlikely, but I'm on a roll here), and Hindenburg finally understands the sort of danger these paramilitary groups (such as his old friends the Stahlhelm) pose to Germany... AND THEN he agrees to crack down on such groups, extreme left and extreme right...
Maybe then.
The earlier the POD, the easier it is to make a minor change with the effects you're looking for.
If we look at 1929-30, I think the best option is to have Gustav Stresemann persuaded to become Chancellor, as the country needs his experience in finance and international economics in order to pull itself out of the Great Depression. In OTL, he died in 1929 of a heart attack, at the age of 51.
 
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Max Sinister

Banned
Stalin certainly would like to conquer the one or other country - but if he starts the war first, he'll have all other western nations against him. So, rather not.

Britain and France could've done something IOTL too - an oil embargo would've helped.

The SCW was close, yes, but how much help did Hitler send?
 
Fenwick

Fenwick

Well in my head I have this idea about France and UK dealing with Japan in China, and Japan gets in one really good hit at the start of a war (sinks a carrier, takes over colonies like OTL, whatever) so the allies are invloved too much to really pull out, and everybody really knows that once the bombers get in Japan is toast (picture Dresden in a city where 80-90% of the buildings are wood). I guess 1938-1942 is a good enough time to start.

So say 1938-1942 Italy notices that much (or the more mobile) of France, and British forces are sent East. So Mussolini thinks now is the perfect time to expand his Empire. So we get Ethopia, or maybe he goes nuts and tries for Yugoslovia like he always wanted. Stalin a few months later, or a year later sees the alck of a reaction and decides Russia should also get involved. So the Baltics have a war as well (maybe one, maybe all).
 
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