Wank the Royal Navy WW2

merlin

It's often said that Japan for the first six-months threw a 'six' as a way of explaining her success. So, what happens if the Royal navy had metaphorically thrown a 'six'. How much more successful could it have been? Moreover I think it needs to be longer than six months - after all nullifying the threat of the Graf Spee was at least a 'five'..

I'll leave it to your imagination - but a few things spring to mind - Does Royal Oak get sunk, maybe not. Save Courageous, how much better during Norway campaign - save Glorious - how badly damaged are the twins?. ,
 

thaddeus

Donor
this may be an uninformed question but could the RN have gotten their hands on some number of destroyers, even semi obsolete vessels? and avoided the destroyers for bases deal or otherwise simply had a surplus to hand over to Allies "governments-in-exile"
 

naraic

Answering the op

Save Courageous Glorious and Ark Royal. All unlucky losses.

Have a carrier with Hood and POW get a strike on Bismarck before the big guns go in damaging Bismarck and saving Hood.

Have a second carrier for Judgement. Sink more of the Italian fleet. Maybe a third.

Have a large fleet ready for the far east.

Fyi saving Courageous and Glorious are better luck. Saving Ark is a reasonable follow on. IMO Ark was abandoned early. She could have limped into dry dock for repair.

The rest are imo reasonable follow on of extra carriers being around.
 

King Augeas

Save Glorious and Courageous, sink the Twins, then run Big Taranto and follow up by whacking the Italian fleet at sea immediately afterwards. Then have a carrier strike on Bismarck before Denmark Strait that butterflies away Hood going boom.

Simple! Well, not really. But the first bit to summer 1940 isn't unreasonable. Hell, just keeping Glorious afloat should write off the Twins, and that's readily doable.

Afterwards, the fleet goes East, whacks the Malaya landings, and then gets murdered by the KB and Singapore falls six months later anyway. Oh well.
 

Bougnas

How about not snatching defeat from the jaws of victory and instead getting the RN lucky enough to stop Weserübung?
Saving Norway sounds like a good achievement.
 

ArtosStark

Bougnas said:
How about not snatching defeat from the jaws of victory and instead getting the RN lucky enough to stop Weserübung?
Saving Norway sounds like a good achievement.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't take a big change to have the RN looking to intercept an invasion rather than watching for a breakout. They could probably pretty much wipe out most of the Atlantic assault forces. That puts the follow up allied forces in a much better position and allows more Norwegian divisions to form up and get into action. Combined with the trashing the KM would have taken , the the fewer airfields in German hands, Norway has a pretty good shot.
 

sonofpegasus

If neither Courageous of Glorious are lost, then there is a good chance there will not be the 'panic' to safe Ark Royal's crew, which IIRC led to an early abandon ship decision.
That alone might help save the Ark. Having more than one carrier available for the Taranto attack could well see a real knock out blow scored against the Italians that could have big butterflies for the NA capaign.
 

Deleted member 94680

Bougnas said:
How about not snatching defeat from the jaws of victory and instead getting the RN lucky enough to stop Weserübung?
Saving Norway sounds like a good achievement.
Click to expand...
Would it save Chamberlain’s bacon though? What would the knock on be of having Neville instead of Winston in No10 through the middle of 1940?
 

1Big Rich

merlin said:
It's often said that Japan for the first six-months threw a 'six' as a way of explaining her success. So, what happens if the Royal navy had metaphorically thrown a 'six'. How much more successful could it have been? Moreover I think it needs to be longer than six months - after all nullifying the threat of the Graf Spee was at least a 'five'..

I'll leave it to your imagination - but a few things spring to mind - Does Royal Oak get sunk, maybe not. Save Courageous, how much better during Norway campaign - save Glorious - how badly damaged are the twins?. ,
Click to expand...

Six months only takes us to March 1940. Catching Graf Spee will still be the major victory, and Courageous not being lost on 17 September 1939 will help in the long run. If we go to 9 months or a year, we can save Glorious . We can save her by having Renown damage both Scharnhorst and Gneisenau off Vestfjord on 9 April.

Royal Oak was the best of the R's, having received an extensive modernization in the early '30s. Having her available means she could be doing some of the work Revenge was forced into, or a fifth battleship for Somerville's Force B . The latter was the worst of the Rs and barely able to do 18 knots by the time of the war. She could be taken out of service sooner than September 1943.

Glorious was the Med Fleet carrier pre-war, when CinC Med Dudley Pound, and her then captain, Lumley Lyster came up with the idea to attack the Italian Fleet at Taranto. Lyster had trained Glourious' men into razors for such an attack, Not losing Glorious and Courageous means that when Lyster comes to the Med Fleet (Operation Hats) with his flag on Illustrious, he has three carriers to attack Taranto (Glorious, Eagle, Illustrious). I would assume Courageous would be the Home Fleet carrier, at least until Victorious commissions.

If we can get Courageous a refit in 1941, we have a fully ready carrier to send east with Phillips. That gives him indigenous reconnaissance, and he won't have to rely on the RAF for recon nor fighter cover (he requested both, and got neither prior to Force Z sortieing. That means he will have a better picture of where the enemy is, as well as where they are not, and the ability to strike at range. That means less time in the danger zone, and could very well mean Force Z survives. That puts the RN in a pretty good position for the rest of the war from 1942 on. Adding Courageous to Somerville's historic Eastern Fleet OOB for the Japanese Indian Ocean Raid puts him in a better position, as well as having two additional fast capital ships, including one with a modern AA suite.

My thoughts,
 
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Admiral Jellicoe

Admiral Jellicoe

The Home fleet catching the Tirpitz off Norway in 1942would be another major coup which would free up the home fleet heavy ships for a sooner deployment to the far east. (they did actually come quite close c.f. Roskill war at sea. A significantly strengthened Eastern fleet in 43 and early 44 opens up more options

How about a lucky hit from the Renown on Gneisenau off Norway doesn't just lead to a turret loss but touches off a magazine

On the home front there is recognition that battle of the Atlantic is the no.1 issue and as such coastal command is either a) transferred to the RN or b) given priority over bomber command for long range aircraft. The beaufort/torbeau wing is made part of coastal command earlier

Churchill is bound and gagged every time he tries to suggest bombarding or blocking something in the med thereby avoiding loss of Barham and sundry other ships
Greece is avoided and therefore Crete pans out differently

Floating dock at Malta is towed to Alexandria prior to war breaking out - ? earlier fixing of Valiant and Queen Elizabeth

No one panics when Rommel is at Alamein and the Medway doesnt try to go to Haifa and get sunk as a result

Sommerville gets close enough to launch a night torpedo strike on the Kido Butai

Hood avoids that one hit
 

Peg Leg Pom

The Early RAF bombing raids on Kriegsmarine bases actually succeed in doing serious damage to the facilities and ships there rather than being the disasters they were.
 

Cryhavoc101

Here is a couple of '6s' for the British

The British change the Merchant codes on Day one of the war (OTL the easier to break one was persisted with for some time to save money...which was less the cost of a single freighter!) - this reduces merchant interceptions making the first happy time less happy

Save Courageous (1 torpedo fails - happened a lot, and she is only damaged), HMS Glorious remembers that she is a Man O War in a war zone and is not sunk (maybe Renown slaps the twins about a bit more on the 9th).

Mers-el-Kébir ends differently with the French warships ending up agreeing to sail to the United States (I have always considered this attack to be a tragic if necessary event that could easily have had a 'happier ending').

Several of these ships following the Japanese occupation of FIC would be used as part of Force Z in late 41

Op Judgement is conducted by 3 Carriers not 1 with significantly more torpedo carrying aircraft than the 11 sent (the others carried bombs/flares) resulting in all the Italian Battleships 'sunk' along with 3 heavy cruisers and many ships damaged

The Italian Surface fleet is effectively gutted in a single night and with this success Cunningham's plans for Malta are carried out to the full with 40 freighters arriving before April 1941 (OTL only 16 arrived during the same period) allowing the Island to be far better prepared to defend itself and to conduct interdiction missions against Italian SLOCs to Libya

The Castle Bromwich factory is handed over to Vickers earlier (end of 1939) resulting in the factory increasing production 6 months earlier.

This results in nearly 700 more Spitfire Airframes by May 1940 over OTL - resulting in far more Hurricanes being sent to Malta and North Africa in late 1940 and in early 1941 a wing of Spitfires to each.

This seriously takes the burden off the RN during this period.

P40s being no longer required in those theatres are instead supplied to other units - such as the RAAF and RNZAF squadrons in the Far East which replace the 170 odd 'porcine' F2s - with over 200 P40s and the F2As are in turn supplied to the Dutch and Chinese in the region.

Battle of Denmark Strait - the Crusiers do not lose contact overnight with Bismarck and PE and so Hollands force intercepts them as intended (crossing their T and not arriving at an oblique angle) - with the main directors not inundated with spray Hoods gunners correctly ID Bismarck and engage her first.

OTL they mis - identified the 2 ships thinking PE was forwards and Bismarck was to the rear (or the other way round?) and so engaged PE first and managing a 4 round straddle from her first salvo

Here they as OTL manage a first salvo straddle against Bismarck but with 8 shells and not 4 with 1 plunging round hitting just between Anton and Bruno knocking out power to both turrets effectively rending them useless for the rest of the fight forcing Bismarck to turn to bring her aft guns to bear.

Badly outgunned from the start - 17 guns to 4, Bismarck starts to accrue further damage and her ability to fight is rapidly degraded by repeated hits over the next 15 minutes.

Although her fire control was badly degraded early in the battle Bismarcks rear Turrets still were able to hit POW with 3 hits 2 under the water line which did not explode and a passthrough hit on her aft funnel - the new British BB has greater problems from her unworked up systems with 1 gun not working at all and a series of failures that reduce her salvo rate throughout the engagement

Bismarck gains some respite when Prinz Eugen attempts a Torpedo attack but this fails with the Heavy cruiser suffering several 15", 14" and 5.25" hits and damaging near misses that leaves her without power, listing and on fire.

Leaving her to be finished off by his destroyers Holland having initially turned away from PEs torpedo attack orders the 2 Crusiers Norfolk and Suffolk to close with Bismarck, who had turned about and was limping off to the North East and after turn back gives chase with both Hood and POW, re-engaging her 45 minutes later.

Savaged by multiple heavy calibre hits and absorbing at least 7 torpedoes (very likely more as the Destroyers who later arrived having finished off PE used all their remaining fish) Bismarck who had refused to strike finally rolls over and sinks at 10.33 local time - with over 600 of her crew saved despite the heavy damage and icy waters.

None of her senior officers survived with Capt Brinkmann of the Prinz Eugen the most senior officer to survive the action with just over 700 of his ships crew surviving.

Not to be outdone Scharnhorst is attacked and badly damaged at la Pallice in July by a heavy RAF raid and is beached to avoid being sunk (OTL the RAF hit her with 5 bombs on the 24th July the 3 heavier bomb hits did not explode - ITTL she is hit by a few more and more of them do their duty).

The RAF return twice over the next week inflicting further torment on her and she remains a half sunk ruin for the rest of the war occasionally visited by RAF raids who use the wreck as a alternative target, whenever they could not attack other targets in the region and becomes one of the most bombed warships in history.

Force Z is formed from Repulse, POW, and are joined by Dunkerque, Strasbourg, and a mixed force of 11 British and Free French Destroyers in addition - 2 Free French Squadrons are deployed to the region and convert to P40 with a 3rd converting to Blenheim's

(The French Gov in Exile is pissed at Japan for occupying all of FIC and agree to allow French forces to reinforce the Allied forces in Malaya)

The 8th Dec 1941 sees this force heading North to intercept suspected landing forces in the Gulf of Thailand

There that should be enough 6s
 

Finbarr the Fair

Admiral Jellicoe said:
The Home fleet catching the Tirpitz off Norway in 1942would be another major coup which would free up the home fleet heavy ships for a sooner deployment to the far east. (they did actually come quite close c.f. Roskill war at sea. A significantly strengthened Eastern fleet in 43 and early 44 opens up more options

How about a lucky hit from the Renown on Gneisenau off Norway doesn't just lead to a turret loss but touches off a magazine

On the home front there is recognition that battle of the Atlantic is the no.1 issue and as such coastal command is either a) transferred to the RN or b) given priority over bomber command for long range aircraft. The beaufort/torbeau wing is made part of coastal command earlier

Churchill is bound and gagged every time he tries to suggest bombarding or blocking something in the med thereby avoiding loss of Barham and sundry other ships
Greece is avoided and therefore Crete pans out differently

Floating dock at Malta is towed to Alexandria prior to war breaking out - ? earlier fixing of Valiant and Queen Elizabeth

No one panics when Rommel is at Alamein and the Medway doesnt try to go to Haifa and get sunk as a result

Sommerville gets close enough to launch a night torpedo strike on the Kido Butai

Hood avoids that one hit
Click to expand...
All good points and reasonable "lucky" rolls.

Coastal Command was actually favoured to a surprising extent over Bomber Command pre-war. I think that in June 1940 it had more operational squadrons than Bomber Command, though many with inadequate, obsolescent aircraft. Like Bomber Command i guess. Maybe simply building it up faster from there and slowing the growth in Bomber Command would work. Allocating Stirling squadrons to it first and other measures strengthen it in 1941-2.
 
Count of Crisco

Count of Crisco

A few which come to mind. Some of which may or may not have been mentioned elsewhere by others.

1) The MN sails from French ports and joins the British following the fall of France, Mels-el-Kibir never happens. And the British gain at least a few servicable French warships. A few modern battlecruisers in Dunkerque and Strasbourg, the battleship Richelieu could likely be completed and put into RN service, a few older battleships like the Bretagne's could be useful for convoy escort and shore bombardment. To say nothing of the French cruiser and destroyer forces. Even if the Brits just kept them in the med it would change things greatly and perhaps keep the Italians bottled up in port for the war.

2) Various early war losses in battleships and carriers do not happen. Say Hood breaks down in 1940 and cannot pursue Bismarck, Glorious is better escorted or out of position, Scapa has better defenses so Royal Oak is not lost, Barham avoids her encounter with a torpedo, as does Ark Royal. Even Valiant not taking mine damage in Alexandria would be of benefit. If there was a pre-war pod then perhaps have Hood refit in the mid to late thirties and so in a better position to engage Bismarck. At the same time I think have more Queen Elizabeth's refit would have been of benefit. There are others but these are just off the top of my head.

3)Immediately upon the outbreak of the war the RN lays down at least a HMS Lion and HMS Temeraire with nine 16' guns on a 45,000 ton hull. Double brownie points if the RN had been working on a post treaty carrier with larger hangars which gets laid down upon the outbreak of the war. Even if the entry of these ships into service is delayed until 1944-45 having larger carriers with less cramped hangars would be of help post war.
 

naraic

thaddeus said:
this may be an uninformed question but could the RN have gotten their hands on some number of destroyers, even semi obsolete vessels? and avoided the destroyers for bases deal or otherwise simply had a surplus to hand over to Allies "governments-in-exile"
Click to expand...
Have the French Navy declare for the Free French en masses. They had a lot of destroyers (over 80) in active service. Some would not have made good convoy escorts and some would but they would almost all be better than the destroyers for bases destroyers.

If you can also add Dunquerke, Strassbourg, Richeliu and some cruisers to the allied navies the Axis navies in Europe could really suffer even without a Royal Navy improvement.

Edit:I feel a need to expand on this point. I am not saying the French Navy was an insanely powerful Navy or anything like that. Just that the numbers will be very valuable in locations where the Royal Navy historically were very stretched.

Dunquerke and Strassbourg for example would struggle if confronted by the twins but would probably mission kil them. Having them as an ally at a time the Royal Navy only had 3 fast capital ships in service would be a massive benefit.
 
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Gokbay

Gokbay

Maybe you could change it so that Hood had her refit. She would have probably survived the hit from Biscmark with that.
 
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