Wagner’s Germany: An Axis Victory TL

[Gudestein]

The funny thing is the Germans had extensive experience with the interleaved wheels. Its used on all their half-tracks.
They selected something else on their first generation tanks and then returned to it for the heavies. Guess they would do so again.
The King Tiger features a compromise with overlapping, but not interleaved wheels. It was supposedly quite reliable and certainly carried a heavy load.

 

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

Pretty sure it was just an evolution of what Porsche innitially worked out for his failed bid (IRL) for the Tiger contract. If the powers that be dictate wheel overlap am sure Prof Porsche would provide.

Can any one remember the schedule for real time development of the Tiger program as a guide line?

Cortz#9 might be able to link through to a pic in thd 'Alternate fighting vehicles' thread?

 

[cortz#9]

Both Porsche and Henschel's versions of the Tiger tank went into development at the same time in late 1941, both companies were working on another tank design at the time. Porsche had just completed the VK3001P medium tank but the tank was turned down for service because Porsche couldn't work out all the bugs out of it's twin-engine twin-system (electro-gas turbine) engines. This twin system consisted of an electric engine mated to a multi fuel engine, two of these twin-system engines were mounted in the tank, one system powering each track.

Henschel meanwhile had been working on the VK3601H heavy tank but after the Germans had encountered the T-34 in combat, the Heermact put in an order for a 45 ton tank capable of mounting the KwK. L/56 8.8 cannon and so all work on the VK3601 was halted because it could not carry the 8.8 gun.

Porsche basically scaled up the VK3001P and increased its armor as well as the overall size of the tank and again used the twin-system engines but again they proved to be difficult to keep in good working order for prolonged periods of time.
The Henschel heavy tank also had problems as well and both designs went over the 45 ton weight requirement specified by the Army, the Henschel design weighed 54 tons and the Porsche design weighed 59 tons.

Because of Porsche's troublesome twin system engines, the Army chose the Henschel design and Porsche's tanks (Porsche was so sure he was going to win the contract that he actually had his factories put his design into production) were converted into tank destroyers and dubbed the Elephant tank.

I could easily draw up a Henschel Tiger with the Porsche suspension but I can't think of a way for the Germans to combine these two designs for the best results without the benefit of hindsight, plus the Germans doing so would entail them taking up more time to get the Tiger into mass production and IOTL the Tiger was rushed into mas production and required tweaking of various components for the entirety of it's production run.

Wagner ITTL has apparently ordered Henschel (and Porsche?) to stick to the 45 ton weight limit which IMO is a good thing and may butterfly away some of the problems of the OTL Tiger.

I can imagine ITTL the Tiger-l being replaced in time with a Tiger-II heavy tank using Porsche's superior suspension, the tank would be similar in appearance to Porsche's OTL design the VK 4502.

The engine deck in the rear would probably be different (because it would not use the twin engines) and I think moving the turret further to the rear would also make for a superior design.

 

[cortz#9]

This is the VK3002M the original design first produced by MANN, it weighed 32 to 35 tons (I cant find corroborating specs on the vk3002). Hitler felt it needed more armor and ordered MANN to increase the armor of the 3002 and this became the OTL Panther which weighed 44 tons.
ITTL I can't imagine Wagner doing the same thing as Hitler did, I think this is the tank Wagner's Germany might develop ITTL and it would be a pretty good tank, not perfect but better than the T-34 and the Sherman and more reliable than the OTL Panther but the interleaved road wheels would still be difficult to repair when damaged (the inner wheels) and heavy mud and snow will be a problem but like I said, no tank is perfect.

I can imagine the VK3002M going into production quicker, earlier and in greater numbers than the OTL Panther and the transmission problems suffered by the Panther might be detected and resolved quicker than OTL or perhaps even butterflied away by the lighter weight?

 

[Tonrich]

If I were a tanker, I would want Speed, Reliability, Gun and Armor in that order.

If I have a tank that is nimble and reliable, then I can move around changing positions quicker and stay ahead of the enemy. The long range gun I could move up my list depending on the accuracy of that gun.

So if I have a tank that is faster then my opponent and has a gun with double the accuracy and range (88 vs. 76) that's the tank I take vs. a slow armored pill box like a Tiger.

 

[cortz#9]

If I were a tanker, I would want Speed, Reliability, Gun and Armor in that order.

If I have a tank that is nimble and reliable, then I can move around changing positions quicker and stay ahead of the enemy. The long range gun I could move up my list depending on the accuracy of that gun.

So if I have a tank that is faster then my opponent and has a gun with double the accuracy and range (88 vs. 76) that's the tank I take vs. a slow armored pill box like a Tiger.

I think the VK3002M would satisfy you then.

 

[Tonrich]

I think the VK3002M would satisfy you then.

Yep, that's what I was thinking.

 

[CrimsonKing]

The funny thing is the Germans had extensive experience with the interleaved wheels. Its used on all their half-tracks.
They selected something else on their first generation tanks and then returned to it for the heavies. Guess they would do so again.
The King Tiger features a compromise with overlapping, but not interleaved wheels. It was supposedly quite reliable and certainly carried a heavy load.

Plus, from what I remember, the King Tiger was another vehicle which was overweight as a result of Hitler's armor requirements, so its TTL equivalent would be more reliable.

At work.

Pretty sure it was just an evolution of what Porsche innitially worked out for his failed bid (IRL) for the Tiger contract. If the powers that be dictate wheel overlap am sure Prof Porsche would provide.

Can any one remember the schedule for real time development of the Tiger program as a guide line?

Cortz#9 might be able to link through to a pic in thd 'Alternate fighting vehicles' thread?

Both Porsche and Henschel's versions of the Tiger tank went into development at the same time in late 1941, both companies were working on another tank design at the time. Porsche had just completed the VK3001P medium tank but the tank was turned down for service because Porsche couldn't work out all the bugs out of it's twin-engine twin-system (electro-gas turbine) engines. This twin system consisted of an electric engine mated to a multi fuel engine, two of these twin-system engines were mounted in the tank, one system powering each track.

Henschel meanwhile had been working on the VK3601H heavy tank but after the Germans had encountered the T-34 in combat, the Heermact put in an order for a 45 ton tank capable of mounting the KwK. L/56 8.8 cannon and so all work on the VK3601 was halted because it could not carry the 8.8 gun.

Porsche basically scaled up the VK3001P and increased its armor as well as the overall size of the tank and again used the twin-system engines but again they proved to be difficult to keep in good working order for prolonged periods of time.

The Henschel heavy tank also had problems as well and both designs went over the 45 ton weight requirement specified by the Army, the Henschel design weighed 54 tons and the Porsche design weighed 59 tons.

Because of Porsche's troublesome twin system engines, the Army chose the Henschel design and Porsche's tanks (Porsche was so sure he was going to win the contract that he actually had his factories put his design into production) were converted into tank destroyers and dubbed the Elephant tank.

I could easily draw up a Henschel Tiger with the Porsche suspension but I can't think of a way for the Germans to combine these two designs for the best results without the benefit of hindsight, plus the Germans doing so would entail them taking up more time to get the Tiger into mass production and IOTL the Tiger was rushed into mas production and required tweaking of various components for the entirety of it's production run.

Wagner ITTL has apparently ordered Henschel (and Porsche?) to stick to the 45 ton weight limit which IMO is a good thing and may butterfly away some of the problems of the OTL Tiger.

I can imagine ITTL the Tiger-l being replaced in time with a Tiger-II heavy tank using Porsche's superior suspension, the tank would be similar in appearance to Porsche's OTL design the VK 4502.

The engine deck in the rear would probably be different (because it would not use the twin engines) and I think moving the turret further to the rear would also make for a superior design.

So with the first variant, the combination of the Porsche suspension with the (not overweight in TTL) Henschel probably wouldn't come about, but perhaps the idea would make itself known after experience highlighted the desirability of enhanced reliability.

This is the VK3002M the original design first produced by MANN, it weighed 32 to 35 tons (I cant find corroborating specs on the vk3002). Hitler felt it needed more armor and ordered MANN to increase the armor of the 3002 and this became the OTL Panther which weighed 44 tons.
ITTL I can't imagine Wagner doing the same thing as Hitler did, I think this is the tank Wagner's Germany might develop ITTL and it would be a pretty good tank, not perfect but better than the T-34 and the Sherman and more reliable than the OTL Panther but the interleaved road wheels would still be difficult to repair when damaged (the inner wheels) and heavy mud and snow will be a problem but like I said, no tank is perfect.

I can imagine the VK3002M going into production quicker, earlier and in greater numbers than the OTL Panther and the transmission problems suffered by the Panther might be detected and resolved quicker than OTL or perhaps even butterflied away by the lighter weight?

I can also see the tank becoming technically viable more rapidly than in OTL, but I'm not sure whether the need would be felt to the same extent. Here, there is a great deal of emphasis on mass production of large numbers of good enough weapons, which the upgunned Panzer IV is seen as, and in contrast to what was the case historically, the T-34 won't be a shock which it is seen as essential to get the next generation vehicle in service to counter. As a result, I could also see the decision being made to keep producing Pz IVs supplemented by Tigers for the duration of the eastern war, with their successors going into production afterwards.

If I were a tanker, I would want Speed, Reliability, Gun and Armor in that order.

If I have a tank that is nimble and reliable, then I can move around changing positions quicker and stay ahead of the enemy. The long range gun I could move up my list depending on the accuracy of that gun.

So if I have a tank that is faster then my opponent and has a gun with double the accuracy and range (88 vs. 76) that's the tank I take vs. a slow armored pill box like a Tiger.

I think the VK3002M would satisfy you then.

Yep, that's what I was thinking.

Well, the Tiger/Lowe isn't supposed to be the mainstay of the tank force, but rather used in a specialist context of breaking through tough defensive positions quickly so that the advance can be maintained with a minimum of disruption. IIRC it was also useful in defensive counterattacks. They are also somewhat faster than in OTL, being lighter.

 

[cortz#9]

Plus, from what I remember, the King Tiger was another vehicle which was overweight as a result of Hitler's armor requirements, so its TTL equivalent would be more reliable.





So with the first variant, the combination of the Porsche suspension with the (not overweight in TTL) Henschel probably wouldn't come about, but perhaps the idea would make itself known after experience highlighted the desirability of enhanced reliability.



I can also see the tank becoming technically viable more rapidly than in OTL, but I'm not sure whether the need would be felt to the same extent. Here, there is a great deal of emphasis on mass production of large numbers of good enough weapons, which the upgunned Panzer IV is seen as, and in contrast to what was the case historically, the T-34 won't be a shock which it is seen as essential to get the next generation vehicle in service to counter. As a result, I could also see the decision being made to keep producing Pz IVs supplemented by Tigers for the duration of the eastern war, with their successors going into production afterwards.







Well, the Tiger/Lowe isn't supposed to be the mainstay of the tank force, but rather used in a specialist context of breaking through tough defensive positions quickly so that the advance can be maintained with a minimum of disruption. IIRC it was also useful in defensive counterattacks. They are also somewhat faster than in OTL, being lighter.

Yeah I think the Porsche suspension could make its way onto the second generation of German heavy tanks and if the Pz-IV and StuG-lll are up-gunned and built in greater numbers than OTL, then the T-34 shouldn't be that much of a problem, especially if German intelligence has learned about it before encountering it in combat.
Add a good number of anti-tank specialty aircraft (which IOTL didn't appear til 1943) and the problem is even less so.

A lighter and more numerous Löwe (Tiger-I) would be a good thing IMO for both offense and defense. The biggest complaint that German tank crews had about the Tiger in its first year of service was that there weren't enough of them, later they complained about its sluggishness and maintenance but again its lighter weight should alleviate some of this.

 

[CrimsonKing]

Yeah I think the Porsche suspension could make its way onto the second generation of German heavy tanks and if the Pz-IV and StuG-lll are up-gunned and built in greater numbers than OTL, then the T-34 shouldn't be that much of a problem, especially if German intelligence has learned about it before encountering it in combat.
Add a good number of anti-tank specialty aircraft (which IOTL didn't appear til 1943) and the problem is even less so.

A lighter and more numerous Löwe (Tiger-I) would be a good thing IMO for both offense and defense. The biggest complaint that German tank crews had about the Tiger in its first year of service was that there weren't enough of them, later they complained about its sluggishness and maintenance but again its lighter weight should alleviate some of this.

I agree, the combination of all of them is especially significant in reducing the impact of the T-34.

Update incoming. Comments???

A Crown Jewel Fractures

A demonstration held as part of the Quit India Movement.
​

No single precondition for the success of the war in the east was of greater importance than continuing British neutrality. The memory of what fighting on two fronts simultaneously had meant for the Kaiser during the Great War still loomed large in the minds of the planners in Berlin. In light of this, no international development in the immediate lead up to Operation Hermann was greeted with greater enthusiasm in the European Treaty League, and in Tokyo, than the severe unrest which gripped British-ruled South Asia during the winter of 1941-42 and proceeded to escalate dramatically. India had long been the “jewel in the crown” of the British Empire, having proved to London a vital source of raw materials, commodities, revenue, and manpower. This last, in particular, had been especially significant during the last war, as Indian troops had played an important role in shoring up the Anglo-French defenses on the Western Front as losses from years of grinding attritional fighting mounted. The British position in the subcontinent, however, had been gradually deteriorating since the end of World War One as a result of the highly precarious financial position the Empire had been forced to enter into by the end of the conflict.

Gandhi (left) and Bose (right).​

Defeat at the hands of the Axis alliance accelerated this trend dramatically, with increased restiveness being noted in the aftermath of the Fall of France. While hostilities were ongoing, the Germans, Japanese, and Soviets had given all the support and encouragement they could to resistance movements to destabilize London’s hold on India. This had prompted a split between two of the most prominent leaders of the independence movement, Mahatma Gandhi and Subhas Chandra Bose. Gandhi advocated a campaign of nonviolent resistance which would weaken Imperial control and eventually convince the British to evacuate the region, having been brought to the realization that they had little to gain from maintaining their presence. In keeping with this vision, he launched the Quit India Movement in the summer of 1941, soon after the attack on Mers El Kebir and Petain’s entry into the war on Wagner’s side. Bose, on the other hand, saw in the victories of the Axis an ideal opportunity to realize an independent India through war, and announced the formation of the Indian National Army (INA) to realize his goal in the fall, composed mainly of Indian prisoners of war captured by the Volkswehr and later the Red Army and the IJA. Despite the name, logistical constraints meant that it was never able to fight on more than the fringes of British India itself, its main use being propaganda value.

Attlee celebrating.​

Churchill’s response to Gandhi’s initiative had been to order an immediate crackdown which included mass arrests, fines, and in some cases, shootings and bombing by the RAF. These measures proved to have mixed results as, while they did have the effect of lowering immediate disruption, they also resulted in greatly increased resentment and a marked growth in support for Bose and the INA. They were also not popular in the United States, where the Abwehr did all it could to promote the line of the British Empire as a commercial rival. The deteriorating situation in India, in turn, had been one of the reasons for the eventual consensus that the time had come to negotiate peace. Nevertheless, it soon became clear that maintaining control over the region on all but the shortest timescale was no longer viable, and Prime Minister Eden announced that full Indian independence was to become a reality no later than early 1944. Although not greatly unpopular personally, he was too associated with the defeats Britain had suffered under Conservative Party leadership, and the desire for change among most of the electorate too strong, to survive the next general election, held in April 1942, which resulted in a victory for the Labour Party under Clement Attlee.

 

[skarosianlifeform]

Well, at least British African colonies might actually beg the British to keep them. They don't want to be independent and have ETL next door.
(Except for white colonies in SA and Rhodesia, who might go along better with ETL than London).

For the same reason, the British won't want to let go of Africa.
First, they will badly need markets, raw materials and manpower, to offset the loss of Asia and of European markets, and to match the ETL power.
Second, they won't risk their colonies being taken over or falling under ETL influence.

So, we might see lots of goodwill both on British and native sides in Nigeria, Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda.

White dominions might go either way. Rhodesia and SA will likely gravitate around ETL, or play ETL and Britain off each other. Australia and NZ can either tighten the links with UK (to deter Japan), or fall into US sphere. Canada will likely join US sphere.

Regarding African ETL colonies, they will probably not gain independence or autonomy for decades, if ever. The Axis powers won't hesitate to use carpetbombing, bio and chemical weapons, deploy tank divisions...
They have full military and logistical cooperation against any rebellion.

They also have the aura of winning the war, there were no Allied landings in Axis/Vichy Africa. The USSR will soon be no more. China will be too weak and focused on Japan. The USA won't have the will (for a long time) to oppose ETL colonialism, beyond (at most) words.

In fact the only country that is really in position to escape colonialism (from Britain, Japan and ETL) is India. And even there, outside powers might fight by proxy, sparking a messy civil war.

 

[Prince Daemon Targaryen]

I hope the British develop a stronger relationship with India than in OTL. Perhaps if they play off on the threat of Japan.
Still, Bose being in a position of power would be interesting.

 

[Linense]

It's a very great update.

The great question will be whether India can become independent by maintaining the territorial integrity of the British Raj -probably under a monarchy reigned by Edward VIII; it would be the ideal way to remove from Britain a former monarch with Nazi sympathies by placing him as the emperor of an independent India, because he would act as a bulwark of British interests in the area and the multicultural peace; in addition, he having no descendants, the country could peacefully move to a federal republic similar to the present India)-, or will be forced to the partition of India for religious reasons. In addition, there is also the question of whether independent India would maintain Ceylon, the Maldives and the British Indian Ocean Territory.

 

[Cregan]

Good update, at this stage (early 1940s) Indian independence is still Congress and Bose-focused, but I assume Jinnah and the Pakistan movement will come into play soon.

I could see a threeway partition of the subcontinent this time - India, (West) Pakistan, and a Bose and INA-ruled Japanese-backed republic centred on Bengal and the Northeastern states (the Republic of Bengal).

 

[traveller76]

Bose was a democratic socialist who aligned with whomever could help them gain independence. When India becomes independent it will face a wealth of problems with the Princely States, Muslim separatism, ETL colonies like Goa and Pondicherry (unless they are surrendered). India may try the central planning/fabian socialism like Nehru but may gain some investment from various powers and try to play a middleman.

 

[Random Walk]

Another great update. Sorry for not replying as much as I should, but I do read every update as soon as I can. This really is one of the only TLs on this site I've followed from start to current. Greatly looking forward to the next update!

 

[Tonrich]

Britain was too slow to create the path for India to become independent similar to Australia, South Africa, New Zealand and Canada. Had they done this before the war they would have mitigated many of the issues they now faced (in regards to the relationship between GB and India).

Now they will need to do more;

The great question will be whether India can become independent by maintaining the territorial integrity of the British Raj -probably under a monarchy reigned by Edward VIII; it would be the ideal way to remove from Britain a former monarch with Nazi sympathies by placing him as the emperor of an independent India, because he would act as a bulwark of British interests in the area and the multicultural peace; in addition, he having no descendants, the country could peacefully move to a federal republic similar to the present India)-, or will be forced to the partition of India for religious reasons. In addition, there is also the question of whether independent India would maintain Ceylon, the Maldives and the British Indian Ocean Territory.

This is a good start, but GB will need to go above this to get the "partnership" feeling generated. I would think they could promise a transfer of navel and air assets that would allow India a good start for a national Navy and Air Force. By transferring two heavy cruisers of the County class (Berwick and Suffolk), 2 Danae class (Delhi and Dauntless), 2 Leander class (Achilles and Ajax) and 2 Fiji class (Nigeria and Mauritius) plus about a dozen destroyers, some minesweepers and other support ships this gives India a nice size start and directly transfers the cost to them.

This would be much more then what the Indian leaders would expect and should start the process of goodwill that GB will need to create a "partner".

 

[CrimsonKing]

Well, at least British African colonies might actually beg the British to keep them. They don't want to be independent and have ETL next door.
(Except for white colonies in SA and Rhodesia, who might go along better with ETL than London).

For the same reason, the British won't want to let go of Africa.
First, they will badly need markets, raw materials and manpower, to offset the loss of Asia and of European markets, and to match the ETL power.
Second, they won't risk their colonies being taken over or falling under ETL influence.

So, we might see lots of goodwill both on British and native sides in Nigeria, Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda.

White dominions might go either way. Rhodesia and SA will likely gravitate around ETL, or play ETL and Britain off each other. Australia and NZ can either tighten the links with UK (to deter Japan), or fall into US sphere. Canada will likely join US sphere.

Regarding African ETL colonies, they will probably not gain independence or autonomy for decades, if ever. The Axis powers won't hesitate to use carpetbombing, bio and chemical weapons, deploy tank divisions...
They have full military and logistical cooperation against any rebellion.

They also have the aura of winning the war, there were no Allied landings in Axis/Vichy Africa. The USSR will soon be no more. China will be too weak and focused on Japan. The USA won't have the will (for a long time) to oppose ETL colonialism, beyond (at most) words.

In fact the only country that is really in position to escape colonialism (from Britain, Japan and ETL) is India. And even there, outside powers might fight by proxy, sparking a messy civil war.

The British will definitely be shoring up their position in Africa, as it is correct that they need to try to make up for losses elsewhere.

My sense with regard to the African settler colonies is that to the extent that they have maneuver room, they would tend to play both sides.

The Axis would certainly be willing to go to any measures necessary to retain control over economically important colonies, although in the immediate future the demands of the Eastern Front will tend to constrain them somewhat in terms of the availability of heavy units.

I hope the British develop a stronger relationship with India than in OTL. Perhaps if they play off on the threat of Japan.
Still, Bose being in a position of power would be interesting.

As others have mentioned, much depends on how the sectarian divisions end up working out. Good India-Britain relations are not out of the question.

It's a very great update.

The great question will be whether India can become independent by maintaining the territorial integrity of the British Raj -probably under a monarchy reigned by Edward VIII; it would be the ideal way to remove from Britain a former monarch with Nazi sympathies by placing him as the emperor of an independent India, because he would act as a bulwark of British interests in the area and the multicultural peace; in addition, he having no descendants, the country could peacefully move to a federal republic similar to the present India)-, or will be forced to the partition of India for religious reasons. In addition, there is also the question of whether independent India would maintain Ceylon, the Maldives and the British Indian Ocean Territory.

Good update, at this stage (early 1940s) Indian independence is still Congress and Bose-focused, but I assume Jinnah and the Pakistan movement will come into play soon.

I could see a threeway partition of the subcontinent this time - India, (West) Pakistan, and a Bose and INA-ruled Japanese-backed republic centred on Bengal and the Northeastern states (the Republic of Bengal).

Bose was a democratic socialist who aligned with whomever could help them gain independence. When India becomes independent it will face a wealth of problems with the Princely States, Muslim separatism, ETL colonies like Goa and Pondicherry (unless they are surrendered). India may try the central planning/fabian socialism like Nehru but may gain some investment from various powers and try to play a middleman.

There are many ways the Indian internal scene could develop at this point, and my view is that none of them has yet been firmly determined or rejected.

The colonies, as of now, are still under the control of the foreign powers.

Another great update. Sorry for not replying as much as I should, but I do read every update as soon as I can. This really is one of the only TLs on this site I've followed from start to current. Greatly looking forward to the next update!

The next update will cover some very important developments, so stay tuned!

Britain was too slow to create the path for India to become independent similar to Australia, South Africa, New Zealand and Canada. Had they done this before the war they would have mitigated many of the issues they now faced (in regards to the relationship between GB and India).

Now they will need to do more;

This is a good start, but GB will need to go above this to get the "partnership" feeling generated. I would think they could promise a transfer of navel and air assets that would allow India a good start for a national Navy and Air Force. By transferring two heavy cruisers of the County class (Berwick and Suffolk), 2 Danae class (Delhi and Dauntless), 2 Leander class (Achilles and Ajax) and 2 Fiji class (Nigeria and Mauritius) plus about a dozen destroyers, some minesweepers and other support ships this gives India a nice size start and directly transfers the cost to them.

This would be much more then what the Indian leaders would expect and should start the process of goodwill that GB will need to create a "partner".

Such a transfer might be in the cards depending on the situation at the time full independence is realized.

 

[Ultima Ratio]

Wouldn't the Soviets step up their support for various communists in India? Especially since they are not present in Iran, they are in a very good position to expand their influence, at least until Barbarossa comes.

 

[skarosianlifeform]

Well, Barbarossa IS coming right now so that will have to wait.