Viva Balbo! – An Alternate Duce, an Alternate Italy
- Thread starter Geekhis Khan
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Dr. Strangelove
Banned
Lol. Maybe my TL? I did screw over Balbo in mine.
I am afraid I didn't read your TL.
People keep mentioning a Francoist Italy, but it sounds more like Peronist Argentina, ie the Fascist Party is still a mainstream if controversial force in a modern democracy, depsite its past authoritarianism.
I am curious how the ex-liberal Balbo will do in place of the ex-socialist Mussolini
I am curious how the ex-liberal Balbo will do in place of the ex-socialist Mussolini
Germaniac
Donor
I want to know the repercussions of a European Majority nation on the African continent. The likelihood of the fourth shore program to succeed is very good, considering the Balbo was leading the charge AND the fact that Italy is not going to fight on the side of the Axis. Depending on when the Italians enter the war the soldiers coming home will come home and begin making babies. Not to mention Italy lost a million and a half people. This will lead to more overpopulation, leading to more immigration to Libya.
Once The Italians gain over 50%, again shouldn't be hard with the low Libyan native population, it will become as Italian as Italy and will be difficult to be broken off. A situation like French Algeria, or South Africa wont happen because the Italians outnumber the Natives... im excited to see what happens
Once The Italians gain over 50%, again shouldn't be hard with the low Libyan native population, it will become as Italian as Italy and will be difficult to be broken off. A situation like French Algeria, or South Africa wont happen because the Italians outnumber the Natives... im excited to see what happens
Didn't know that one. Thanks again, lounge, you're a fountain of knowledge. Where did you find that? I'm curious to read more.
I keep reading about both his "residual Republican leanings", but also of his love of being in charge once he was, so finding where to steer this politically has been a lot of guesswork thanks to the serious lack of data on him in English. If you could steer me to any good Italian sites I could at least give babelfish a try at them...
Thanks! And welcome to the boards.
That's a really good point. My current knowledge of Peronist Argentina is polluted by US popular entertainment (and elevator music show tunes), so I'll have to make it a point to research Peron's regime before I start the post-war stuff. And no, there will not be any "Donna Manu" musicals.
What you describe is very much in the plan. "Fourth Shore Italy" will remain to present day, with...interesting repercussions. Some of these have been hinted at in the last update. What it hasn't been hinted at but will appear eventually is the flip-side: the impact of a large Arab-Berber minority on Italian culture!
I just got back from vacation and need time to get back into the swing of things, so it'll be a few, I'm afraid.
I'd prefer, frankly, to give a good update next week rather than a crappy one today.
I'd prefer, frankly, to give a good update next week rather than a crappy one today.
I just got back from vacation and need time to get back into the swing of things, so it'll be a few, I'm afraid.
I'd prefer, frankly, to give a good update next week rather than a crappy one today.
Indeed.
How was your holiday?
The reference is on "Italo Balbo"-Giordano Bruno Guerri,on an article of History magazine "Historia" ,and in an interview to Dino Grandi.
The original source is in private conversations of Balbo with friends and others fascist personalities.
Grandi said that him thinks the same.
The idea was intended not like "anti-fascist",but like an evolution, a manner to consolidate the
achievements
of fascism and move from a system still to another more dynamic without return to the old many parties system,and involving other fresh forces not strongly anti-fascist (some cattolic-democratics,Liberals and socialist moderates) in the political life.In late 30s the fascist party was a swamp,slow,heavy,bureaucratic.
Balbo was a dynamic,modern type and hated this.
One time one young air force officer asked to him to enter in the fascist party.
Balbo tell to him "You are crazy? you are one Royal air force officer ,forget that crap!
For these ideas Mussolini called him "that democratic pig".
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Attention, the "two parties system" in the beginning should have been internal to fascist party.
You imagine an election in USA in which are only the Democratic or the Repubblican party.
For example:candidates are conservative-moderate Repubblicans and moderate-liberal Repubblicans.
at the Conservative joint the right wing of the Democratics,and others conservative movements ,
and centrist dems,and others progressive movements joint to the left wing Rep.
The citzen vote for one or for the other faction of the (apparently) same party.
The system that Balbo had in mind,in the beginning was this.
Is clear that in the years had evolved in a true two parties system.
You imagine an election in USA in which are only the Democratic or the Repubblican party.
For example:candidates are conservative-moderate Repubblicans and moderate-liberal Repubblicans.
at the Conservative joint the right wing of the Democratics,and others conservative movements ,
and centrist dems,and others progressive movements joint to the left wing Rep.
The citzen vote for one or for the other faction of the (apparently) same party.
The system that Balbo had in mind,in the beginning was this.
Is clear that in the years had evolved in a true two parties system.
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Sounds like the system that started in post-Nasser Egypt under Sadr(?). The Arab Socialist Party, the only legal party, was divided internally into three factions, the Worker's (left) Moderates (centre) and Liberal Socialist (right) and elections were held as ever (people tend to forget most dictatorships including the USSR and Fascist Italy, did hold elections, just with a 'limited' choice). Over time the factions became more distinct with Sadr in the centre faction still dominating as Egypt moved towards a semblence of democracy.
Such a system would make sense in Balboite Italy, particularly if Balbo/Party leaders are keen to retain control through slow democratisation, rather than sudden reform. Still even if that was the path to democracy, one look at post-Communist Eastern Europe to see plenty of 'revised' Soviet era parties will thriving. I can't imagine Fascist Italy having many more skeleton's in its closet than Communist Poland or East Germany.
EDIT: Interesting possibility, does a functioning Fascist Italy keep fascism alive as an ideology. Without its alliance, Nazi Germany will viewed as a seperate entity, far more extremist and far from the technocratic ideas of Mussolini. Will things like the BUF, Parti Social etc. still remain in politics?
Such a system would make sense in Balboite Italy, particularly if Balbo/Party leaders are keen to retain control through slow democratisation, rather than sudden reform. Still even if that was the path to democracy, one look at post-Communist Eastern Europe to see plenty of 'revised' Soviet era parties will thriving. I can't imagine Fascist Italy having many more skeleton's in its closet than Communist Poland or East Germany.
EDIT: Interesting possibility, does a functioning Fascist Italy keep fascism alive as an ideology. Without its alliance, Nazi Germany will viewed as a seperate entity, far more extremist and far from the technocratic ideas of Mussolini. Will things like the BUF, Parti Social etc. still remain in politics?
Yes,more or less is the same.
But Italy is not Egypt,and neither Spain.
I think that in 50s the Balbo system would necessarily evolved in bipartisan democracy.
In the post war world a country like Italy could not remain out of the games like Spain.
I think that men like Balbo or Grandi would understand this and would have driven the process.
maverick
Banned
That's a really good point. My current knowledge of Peronist Argentina is polluted by US popular entertainment (and elevator music show tunes), so I'll have to make it a point to research Peron's regime before I start the post-war stuff. And no, there will not be any "Donna Manu" musicals.
If you're serious, check the TL at my sig, about a peronist argentina
BTW, I still find this a very excellent project
Hmmmm. All this could make the Decolonization era rather interesting, in the Chinese sense of the word. Great work thus far.
It would be quite easy to split the Fascist party into two (or more?) wings: there was always a clear divide between the "progressive" and the "reactionary" sides of the movement, and the fascist ideology was - to say the least - very muddled. The difficulty would be in keeping under control the beginning of this liberalisation, in order to avoid an excessive factionalism.
I do agree with this: the economic boom of the 50s and the increased consumerism will force a deeper and more real democratisation of the political landscape in Italy. I am also in agreement that it cannot take too long: no way a prosperous Italy could be kept still the same way Francoist Spain was.
This said, democratisation is a funny process, and there has not been many cases where the timetable and the specifics of it where kept. Balbo might be surprised by the acceleration that moderate reforms can take
That sounds about right. I can really see Balbo and Grandi setting up such a system. Thanks for the insight.
Great points; Egypt, Spain, Argentina, former Soviet Bloc...Balboan Italy could have similarities and differences to all. I'll have to research these more, but the post-war politics is shaping up already. Thanks, lounge & Jape.
And Jape: Fascism and Nazism will indeed be seen as separate ideologies. I can promise the continued life of some pre-war Fascist-like groups like the BUF, and can promise the post-war birth of others. The specifics may change from nation to nation, though. Developing nations in particular will find inspiration in Fascist Italy's fast industrialization.
As for the eventual slow democratization, it will be the longest time before truly "Socialist" parties and Anarchist/Libertarian parties, particularly Marxian anti-statist "internationalist" ones, find a place, since Fascism in general and Balbo in particular found them immediate enemies. That said, the Socialist and Syndicalist parts of Fascism may certainly become (a) sub-party(ies) when we see the post-war split.
Interesting premise, I'm looking forward to seeing how this one turns out.
Thanks! Hope to live up to the promise.
If you're serious, check the TL at my sig, about a peronist argentina
BTW, I still find this a very excellent project
I'll check that one out, and thanks.
Yes, the effects of Libya on Decolonization certainly shall indeed prove...interesting.
Thanks!It would be quite easy to split the Fascist party into two (or more?) wings: there was always a clear divide between the "progressive" and the "reactionary" sides of the movement, and the fascist ideology was - to say the least - very muddled. The difficulty would be in keeping under control the beginning of this liberalisation, in order to avoid an excessive factionalism.
I do agree with this: the economic boom of the 50s and the increased consumerism will force a deeper and more real democratisation of the political landscape in Italy. I am also in agreement that it cannot take too long: no way a prosperous Italy could be kept still the same way Francoist Spain was.
This said, democratisation is a funny process, and there has not been many cases where the timetable and the specifics of it where kept. Balbo might be surprised by the acceleration that moderate reforms can take
There are a variety of factions within Fascism to "balkanize" into sub-parties. Most notably, the party originally formed from a union between, of all crazy things, Nationalism and Radical Revolutionary Syndicalism.
There will most certainly be divisions between these two factions, not to mention divisions from Futurists/Traditionalists, Industrialists/Labor, Catholic/Anti-Catholic, Republican/Monarchist, Agrari landholders/Peasantry, Nobility/Bourgeois/Proletariat, and Nationalist/Regionalist (not to mention North/South/Colonial).- Status