Vinland –the bountiful refuge.

Yes -yet another Norse in North America TL.

This is actually a timeline I have been toying with in my head since before the internet:) Let me know what you think.

POD: December 1241

In 1240, Batu Khan, with an army of perhaps 130 000 men, invaded Europe. In strategic control was Subutai, one of history’s great generals. The invasion swiftly crushed Poland and Hungary, as well as pressuring other countries, when the news arrived of the death of Ogedei Khan. The Mongols withdrew in the spring of 1242. Batu and Subutai were finishing plans to invade Austria, Italy and Germany when the news reached them.

In this POD, Ogedei Khan survived for several years. Batu and Subutai puts into motion their plans for the invasion of Austria, then the German principalities, followed by Italy.

Initially, the plan met with stunning success and Austria fell quickly. However, they started to bog down in the Germanies. The terrain was less ideal for the Mongol horse tactics than the plains they invaded Poland and Hungary from, and the remaining advantage of surprise and unfamiliar tactics were to a degree spent in Austria.

Batu and Subutai respond with the terror tactics from their Russian campaign. While areas and cities that submit unconditionally to them is left unmolested, any area that resists is razed to the ground, the fields burned and all the populations slain.

Not an uncommon behavior for invading armies, but implemented with a ruthless thoroughness rarely seen. Worried about bogging down in the German principalities, Batu and Subutai aborts the German invasion early, and move on with the plan, proceeding to invade Italy with more success, then France and Spain.

While France does not manage a good defense, Spain proves a harder nut to crack. Batu and Subutais campaign does eventually bog down. Mongol maneuverability allows them to raid and burn across large parts of the flatter areas of Europe.

In Scandinavia, the result was something of a millennial panic. Similar instances have occurred previously, and the Mongols are seen as Gods punishment on the world. While King Håkon IV himself takes a more balanced view of the issue, a mild mass hysteria grips the population.

The King himself, having just put an end to the Norwegian civil wars, believes that a combination of naval power, and Norway’s extremely mountainous terrain should discourage any Mongol invasion. Asides from some preparations for moving the capital to a more protected location, he is more interested in opportunities that may open if the Mongols make an incursion into Denmark.

The millennial hysteria and belief that the Mongols will invade and kill everyone grips the population deeply, though. During this time European population were approaching a peak level, due to what has become known as the little climatic optimum. Norway also has a long history of population surpluses exporting themselves elsewhere. At this time, this was not old history, many families would have had branches which had moved out for land.

A part of the population of Norway decided to escape. It is worth noting that the medival population was climbing towards its maximum at this time. There was a number of landless sons floating around, and the serfdom was not an institution in Norway. Iceland was not really set up to receive a massive influx of colonists, and was perceived as too close to the Mongols anyway. Greenland was far enough away, but not really desirable real estate. Vinland however, provided both distance and real estate.

Emigration demographics.

Few dependable data on the population of Norway at this time exists. From the available sources, an estimate of 1 million seems reasonable1.

An initial wave of settlers sent back positive reports, before the first winter. The positive tales provided impetus for a much larger wave next spring.

All in all, over the 10 years when the main emigration happened, as much as 10-12 % of the population of Norway may have emigrated. Overwhelmingly, the young, landless and prospect less.

The emigration route followed the old Norse path to Vinland. Iceland and Greenland experienced a brief boomtown status as providers of supplies on the journey.

The size of the emigration caused a shortage of ships even to the naval orientated Norwegians. Many families made a good profit shipping emigrants to Vinland for a fee. Some toss them overboard or sell them as slaves once they are out of sight of land. Then return with tales of the pleasant land in the west to entice more passengers.

Although Norway is by far the greatest supplier of people, numbers of Swedes and Danes join the exodus. Towards the end, a number of people from the British Isles join in.

The number of people emigrating were in the realm of 110 000 people from Norway, 20 000 Danes, about 5000 Swedes, and late in the exodus, another 5000 or so from the British Isles. A smaller number of landless people from Iceland also went along during the peak.

The total number of emigrants were thus in the realm of 140 000 people.

Losses on the trip were not insignificant. Initially, as much as 20% of the colonists failed to reach their destination. The losses quickly declined, though, as more knowledge on the waters and routes were accumulated by the captains. In total, it is likely that over 20 000 people were lost during the crossing.

The royal response:

King Håkon IV of Norway initially tries to reduce the exodus, as the loss of his population base reduces his power. The exodus proves to disorganized to stop, however. Instead he scents a new addition to his kingdom in the making. He dispatched a fleet containing the illegitimate prince Sigurd, as well as a number of professional soldiers and craftsmen. This expedition also contains a number of writings, not all religious treatises.

Colonization pattern

Asides from the small fleet sent out by King Håkon IV, there was no overarching plan to the colonization. The ships would arrive on the Vinland coast, make contact with the nearest Norse farm for information, and proceed south, until a likely-looking area unclaimed by other Norse were reached. This led to a thin stripe of colonization following the coastline, and reaching far south. In 1256, the coastline from OTL Newfoundland down to OTL South Carolina has been settled.

The early history of the colonies.

This colonization differs significantly from the one in OTL in several respects.
First off, the Norwegian settlers arrived with far better coping skills for the climate than the settlers in OTL. Memories of the settlements in Iceland and Greenland were also relatively fresh, and the colonists brought livestock and appropriate tools.

The colonists were also somewhat more pragmatic in their religious attitudes.

The colonization pattern differed. A massive initial wave of colonists which petered out, as opposed OTLs accelerating colonization

Colonization happened towards the tail end of the Medieval Warm Period, and not in the depths of the Little Ice Age. This gave the colonists another advantage in the early years.

Disease advantage over the natives was reduced, although not eliminated.

The technology advantage over the natives was far less overwhelming than in OTL.

Relations with the natives varied immensely along the costal strip. In almost all cases, contact with the natives was followed by epidemics among the natives as they were exposed to flu, and other old world diseases. This gave the colonists a generations “grace period”, allowing them to gain a very firm foothold. Still, a number of settlements were wiped out where conflicts were fierce.

Beyond this, some areas traded with the natives. Some feuded with them, and some allied with them, getting involved in the natives’ wars. Most colonists, with some exceptions, took a pragmatic approach to missionary work among the natives. In fact, some pagan practices still flourished among the Vinlanders.

The royal colony under Sigurd, (who seems to have found the climate healthy for him, and survived almost 25 years longer than in OTL) traded with the natives, while establishing defensive positions on a large island. Sigurd proclaimed himself the ruler of the entirety of Vinland. A notion that would lead to some conflict with the Skraelings later. The notion of Sigurs rulership was mostly give lip service among the independent-minded settlers, except in areas where conflict with the natives was fierce. The royal settlement would send ships and soldiers to such areas, but leave a garrison for tax collection after the hostilities was concluded. If victorious.
This practice may have encourages some of the colonists to keep relations with the natives above freezing.

Given the naval origin of the colonies, and the fact that some colonists came from Greenland and Iceland where trees for shipbuilding were valuable, combined with the fact that the initial thrust of the colonies were located just off some of the worlds riches fishing grounds, it is not surprising that a culture with a high naval reliance arose. Sporadic conflicts with the natives also contributed. The natives was utterly unable to challenge the Vinlanders sea power. Much like sporadic Vinlander attempts to wage war in the deep forest met with disaster.
The ships provided fast communications, trade, and ability to shift forces around rapidly. This may have contributed to the success of the colonies.

The pattern that developed was buildings in wood, or sometimes stone, with a stone wall, surrounded by fields, witch advanced another half mile a year on the average, large harbors with much fishing and trading being done.

After the initial wave of settlements, many of the northernmost settlements did not last. Once the size of Vinland, and the better climate further south was known, many of the northern settlements were abandoned, or failed to develop as the second generation migrated south. The whole of the Greenland settlement would in effect eventually join these.

Contact with the southern civilizations.

It was inevitable that the far-ranging ships would eventually meet the Aztecs and other central American cultures. Although horrified at the Aztec religious practices, the amount of gold possessed by the Aztecs and other mesoamerican civilizations did lead the Vinlanders to trade. Eventually, trading practice led to contact with a more palatable empire: The Incas. The effect on the Vinlanders from contact with these empires was not large. Settlement in these areas was not an issue. Their climate coping skills were badly unsuited to the area, and there was no impetus to move there in the window when first contact diseases weakened the organized civilizations already present. The Norse gained gold and some luxury goods from trade, as well as some slaves, which added to their population base. However, they also learned about the crops of the Skraelings, maize, and more importantly, potato.

The effect on the Skraelings, while subtle, was far more important. They gained important knowledge. Although it was not implemented by the Aztecs or Mexican civilizations at this time, the Incas were more adaptable.

This knowledge included iron working and weaponry, knowledge of horses and seafaring. As well as inoculation against some European diseases and the knowledge that there exists an entire people of seafaring blondes in the east.

The Greenlanders

The presence of a large European colony in Vinland added considerably to the survival of the Greenlanders. Trading opportunities and ship visits were more frequent. The Greenlanders supplied furs and trapping as well as a base for ships wishing to do their own hunting in the summer.

As the climate worsened, however, the Greenlanders relocated south. While the locations were still used as a base during summer expeditions, the colony itself relocated.

Initially, contact across the Atlantic was frequent. Worsening climatic conditions made contact more sporadic until it cut off entirely about a century after the colonization started.

Preliminary timeline:

1240 : Mongol invasion of Europe starts

1241: Poland and Hungary is crushed

1242-1243: Austria falls, terror in Germany. European panic starts.

1244-1245: The Mongol invade Italy, doing vast damage. Rome is burned to the ground. The pope dies in the Vatican flames. France falls. European panic rises sharply.

1244: Mild emigration to Iceland

1245: First wave of emigrants to Vinland. Less than a thousand emigrants

1246: Battles in Spain. Second year of Vinland emigration. Over ten thousand people emigrate.

1246-1256: Fighting with Mongols devastate large areas of Europe. Emigration to Vinland remains massive with an average of over ten thousand people per year leaving. The peak is over twenty thousand after a Mongol raid into Denmark.

1256-1260: The Mongol invasions panic has burned itself out. Emigration slows to a trickle, mainly of landless and prospect less young.

1250-1275 approx. Flu and other European diseases devastate native Americans.
The Vinland colony finds the climate pleasant, the land fertile, and the fishing good. The new generation is large, and well fed.

Although a pleasant place during this time, Vinland is only sporadically visited from Europe. The place is more than self-sufficient for food and necessities, but do not produce any trade goods of note. Most contact is with vessels trading fur with the Greenlanders, and resupplying. The Vinlanders retain the ships that brought them to Vinland, and build new ones, taking a larger and larger percentage of the trade with Greenland. Vinland produces a lot of things the Greenlanders want.

During this period, the Vinlanders, in adapting to their new location, also adopt a tradition of slightly greater adaptiveness than previously.

1275-1315: Much of the trade with Greenland is now taken over by the Vinlanders. European ships visit Greenland less often. The occasional Vinlander ship visits Iceland. During this time, conflict and cooperation with the natives increase. Vinlanders become involved in several feuds and downright wars. Often allied to one tribe while fighting another.

Around 1300 the Medival Warm Period is generally seen as ending. The climate begins to worsen. Increasing sea ice makes shipping more hazardous from Greenland.
The colonists have still increased their numbers rapidly during the initial honeymoon period. Numbers may now be only slightly below half a million.

1315-1350s With Greenland trade less profitable, the last voyage from Europe to Greenland occurs in 1345.
The climate continues to worsen, and fish stocks become a more important food source for the Vinlanders. Many small scale conflicts with the natives occur. The Vinlanders learn how to use their ships to move fighters rapidly. The initial push of fields and farms inlands slows and often stops during this time. The population still climbs, but under the pressures of less food, hostile actions and colder winters, it climbs far more slowly.

1347 the Black Death hits Norway.

1350-1400 The climate continues to worsen2. Reliance on fish grows. Some small allied native tribes adopt Christianity, and the Vinlander way of living. Vinlander attitudes to the natives is now a very local thing, varying sharply between areas of conflict and areas of cooperation. At least one Vinlander village falls back into paganism. The villagers move into the area of the great lakes with a co-religionist tribe.

Towards the end of the fourteenth century, the first encounters are made between Vinladers and the Mesoamericans around the gulf of Mexico.

The last permanent residents of Greenland relocate south.

1400-1500 The crops remain poor. Dairy and fishing remain the food staples. Native conflicts have settled down. The Vinlanders split into several different political areas, a Kingdom under the line of Sigurd Magnusson, a republic based on the Icelandic and pre-royal Norwegian model, and a number of independent farms and areas centered around a religious revival. The Kingdom takes a hostile attitude to the natives, much of the royal power is built on protecting the people from the supposedly hostile natives. The republic counts at least two larger tribes as full members of the republic.
The Bishop of the religious group has poor relations with the natives, but would honestly like to better them, due to the potential for missionary work.

Conflict between these groups is mainly at sea, and over fish stocks at this time.

In 1480 a strange ship is spotted by the fishing ships off Markland (Newfoundland). With three masts and a high prow, it is unlike any ship seen previously. It is still fishing from fish stocks that this group of Vinlanders feel proprietary about, and is quickly dispatched.
For the next few years, this encounter is repeated frequently.

Gulf of Mexico trade has made a group of families very wealthy.

The splinter pagan group has intermarried with the natives, and is hard to distinguish from other tribes -visually. They practice a semiviking Norse paganism with warrior virtues and a Norse fatalism. This religion is beginning to become popular among the other tribes in the area.

Towards the start of the sixteenth century, there has been no contact with Europe for a hundred and fifty years. Seven generations.
The occasional group of young bucks have set sail for the sunrise, but so far, no one has made it there. The sea ice packs the route that the Vinlanders remember, and any that made it to Europe would have to face the plagues resurgences.

By now, Europe is remembered the ruined land “the people” originated from. Common belief has it that the Mongols did destroy all of Europe. The pope is seen as a distant religious figure much like Jesus and Mary. The Mongols were demons, who supposedly killed the last pope anyway. King Magnus is remembered as the Hero-King of a shining kingdom.
Strong cultural storytelling traditions have lead to hundreds of stories of doomed European heroes and ogrelike Mongols. Full of fighting, love and rather earthy. Borrowing from local native tales as well.

Further from this:

I’d really like some suggestions here. There are a number of areas that I do not feel I know that well, and have left deliberately vague. For example, the costal geography of North America. Are there any areas that the Norwegians are likely to skip entirely, or settle more heavily?

What resources are available? Iron would be extremely important.

Where would be a good island for the Royal mission to settle? Defensible, flat and able to support agriculture, large enough to make a good base.

What would the Mongol invasions do to Europe in TTL?

The eventual fate of the Mongol empire will be important later on. Do the Muslims cut of trade with India and China, generating the pressure for a sea route that drove Colombus?

Colombus himself will be butterflied away, with his unique miscalculations of the earths size, and access to the ears of Ferdinand and Isabella, but if the pressure is still there, someone else will try the route. Although it will likely take more time before they do.

I see contact with the mound people happening soon. What do we know about them?

The climate will continue to worsen until about 1720.

I see a half-breed from the pagan tribes sent to the royal isle as a hostage. While there he encounters some of the writings the original mission brought with them from Norway. He finds most boring, but one set is interesting. It is on the Mongols and their tactics.

The amount of inspiration for how horses can be used in warfare he drew from those texts would change the face of Vineland. And the Mesoamerican civilizations.




1)
The Historical Atlas estimates 1 million for Denmark in 1200. Historically, the two countries have had similar carrying capacity. The Medieval Sourcebook estimates a combined population for Germany and Scandinavia of 11.5 million in 1340. (Up from 4 million in 1000, which gives an indication of the speed of the population expansion at this time.)

2)
http://geochemistry.usask.ca/bill/courses/Climate/The%20Little%20Ice%20Age%20prt.pdf
 
Where would be a good island for the Royal mission to settle? Defensible, flat and able to support agriculture, large enough to make a good base.

Nova Scotia? Might be to cold though and is not really an island since a thin isthmus seperate it from the mainland. If you really want an island you could use Prince Edward Island. Good timeline! Keep it up!;)
 
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Nice ideas, although with a population base that large, I have my doubts that they (a) become completely isolated from Europe and lose that much knowledge of their origins (this is a very large population, and they are very navally oriented, after all), or (b) manage to sink every single fishing ship they sight at the Grand Banks. If you want an island, large enough for a good base of operations, strategically located (midway from Newfoundland to South Carolina), and with a decent climate, Long Island would fit the bill perfectly. If you want something smaller, try Manhattan Island or Staten Island. Or maybe all three. Since the lower end of the Hudson River valley is geologically a fjord, the Norwegians should feel right at home.
 
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Umbral

Interesting scenario. Possible and would give a much different world.

One question comes to mine for the Vinelanders. Since the break between Greenland and Europe occurred a couple of years before the plague reached Norway would the settlers have had experience of it? If not they could be very vulnerable once contact with Europe is re-established.

A lot in Europe would depend on what happened to the Mongols. Did any of them stay in Europe, with a situation similarly to Russia. Or given that the terrain and climate is not really suitable and they have plundered a lot of the areas they can reach easily have they withdrew to the east? In the latter case what elements have filled the vacuum? Possibly the Muslims, unless they have also been clobbered. Might be a revival of the Moorish states in Spain? Or the northern states from Britain and Scandinavia, who would have escaped largely unscathed behind water protection. Or possibly a revived Byzantium or other Balkan power?

Also, the Golden Horde quickly converted to Islam in OTL. Given the much larger contact with the Christian world, albeit as conquerors, might some or all of them have converted to Christianity. If nothing else a major Mongol, invasion of central Europe could well totally change the attitude to political and military power. The mounted knights would have failed miserably against them and as well as most of their numbers would have lost considerable prestige and influence. Possibly a group like the Swiss might have had success in their mountain valleys and then as the Mongol tide receded from Europe more small republics might have been established.

With the death of the Pope and destruction of Rome the Catholic church would have suffered a serious blow. Might have led to earlier reformation or a more decentralised system?

A few ideas that might be of interest.

Steve
 

corourke

Donor
This is good, but I think contact with the Aztecs and especially the Incas would be delayed more than you have accounted for. Honestly I could see complete ignorance of the Incas until other Europeans discover them. What's the Great Lakes region look like in this timeline? The plains? I've always imagined that, given horses and enough time, the plains indians could develop nomadic civilizations very similar to those that appeared on the Eurasian steppes, which kind of seems similar to what you're getting at here.

Also, because of the Mongol devestation of Europe, you can probably push back the appearance of other European fishing ships for fifty years or so, if you felt so inclined.
 
Lokit said:
Nova Scotia? Might be to cold though and is not really an island since a thin isthmus seperate it from the mainland. If you really want an island you could use Prince Edward Island. Good timeline! Keep it up!;)

Thanks! Nova Scotia would probably have looked more inviting towards the end of the Warm Period. Prince Edward Island seems better, though, since the article makes mention of its fertile soil for agriculture. That would be a big boost to a fledgeling royal settlement.
The article also makes mention of red rocks with a high iron content. Although not economical for mining today, would there have been minor depostis of iron that could have been mined? That would make it perfect!

It is also close enough to the Grand Banks to attempt to assert control over it later on, perhaps taxing fishermen. This would have been highly resented by everyone else when crops failed as the little Ice Age advanced.

Active patroling might be required.

A similar situation might exist in relation to trade with Greenland.

I saw the developing republic as an amalgamation of the more independent-minded settlers, (with Norwegian and Icelandic republics fresh in memory) with allied Iroquois tribes.

They are believed to have established a confederacy around 1400, which seems to have covered a large area around lake Eerie and Ontario. The time is right, and apparently the impetus was there.

Also, the representative democracy and matrilinear clans would have been very close to the old Norse,and Icelandic, way of goverment.

Add the Vinlanders to the mix, with iron, horses, wheat, the wheel, Norse legislation and lawsuits, longboats...who knows where that would go?

Actually, I suspect it would rapidly go around the great lakes.

This moves the republic inland.

Martinus Paduei said:
Nice ideas, although with a population base that large, I have my doubts that they (a) become completely isolated from Europe and lose that much knowledge of their origins (this is a very large population, and they are very navally oriented, after all), or (b) manage to sink every single fishing ship they sight at the Grand Banks. If you want an island, large enough for a good base of operations, strategically located (midway from Newfoundland to South Carolina), and with a decent climate, Long Island would fit the bill perfectly. If you want something smaller, try Manhattan Island or Staten Island. Or maybe all three. Since the lower end of the Hudson River valley is geologically a fjord, the Norwegians should feel right at home.

That is probably how they got inland then. Settle all the way up the fjord, fish and trade up the "Hudson" river, get into contact with the natives. Fight with one side, ally with the Five Nations, become the Sixth Nation.

Loss of contact: Well, I assumed the route back to europe is well known. But the worsening sea-ice conditions made it increasingly hazardous. At the same time, the Vinlanders took a larger part of the trade with Greenland, without having much non-perishable worth the trip to offer themselves.

As the Greenland-Iceland hopping route was cut off by the ice, and the southely route taken by Colombus in OTL would be against the prevailing winds.

A longer, direct trip from Vinland to the British Isles should still be possible in summer, but there would be little incentive. I assumed a few young bucks would try it. Some would not make it there. Some would, and face an europe ravaged by the plague. Many would perish there. Maybe some would even make the choice of not bringing the plague back to Vinland.

In any case, I assumed the europeans had no incentive to go after about 1345. The Vinlanders tried a few times, but no ships returned. Later on the energies of those most likely to try would be absorbed by the Gulf of Mexico.

Accurate, if outdated knowledge of Europe would be preserved by the clergy (what little there was of it) and the royal archives. The mythic status of europe refers to the attitudes of the population at large. I threw it in for flavor:p

I take your point about sinking all the ships that came to the Grand Banks. Perhaps if they luck into the first one or two? I seem to remember that they were originally discovered by mavericks seeking new fishing areas. If no-one returned, they would likly have remained unknown for quite some while.

stevep said:
Umbral

Interesting scenario. Possible and would give a much different world.

One question comes to mine for the Vinelanders. Since the break between Greenland and Europe occurred a couple of years before the plague reached Norway would the settlers have had experience of it? If not they could be very vulnerable once contact with Europe is re-established.

A lot in Europe would depend on what happened to the Mongols. Did any of them stay in Europe, with a situation similarly to Russia. Or given that the terrain and climate is not really suitable and they have plundered a lot of the areas they can reach easily have they withdrew to the east? In the latter case what elements have filled the vacuum? Possibly the Muslims, unless they have also been clobbered. Might be a revival of the Moorish states in Spain? Or the northern states from Britain and Scandinavia, who would have escaped largely unscathed behind water protection. Or possibly a revived Byzantium or other Balkan power?

Also, the Golden Horde quickly converted to Islam in OTL. Given the much larger contact with the Christian world, albeit as conquerors, might some or all of them have converted to Christianity. If nothing else a major Mongol, invasion of central Europe could well totally change the attitude to political and military power. The mounted knights would have failed miserably against them and as well as most of their numbers would have lost considerable prestige and influence. Possibly a group like the Swiss might have had success in their mountain valleys and then as the Mongol tide receded from Europe more small republics might have been established.

With the death of the Pope and destruction of Rome the Catholic church would have suffered a serious blow. Might have led to earlier reformation or a more decentralised system?

A few ideas that might be of interest.

Steve

I also seem to remember that Hansa cutting off acces to european fishing grounds started the pressure that drove the discovery of the Grand Banks? That would likly be butterflied away.

As regards the Black Death, I deliberatly cut contact just before it hit. I did have to movet the last Greenland/Europe contact down a few years due to reduced trade profitability.

The Black Death was the most extreme demographic disaster in the history of Europe. Back when I worked in vaccine production, I seem to remember hearing about a paper showing that the lethality had been seriously underestimated by researchers, and may have approached 80%. Although I can't locate the paper now. I still think the population of Britain did not climb back untill the 1700s.

In any case, I wanted the settlers to have more time to get established before they got into contact with it. Build in population and developed areas.

Also, the natives suffered heavily under european diseases as it is. Smallpox, flu, measles, mumps...add the Black Death in, and it is beginning to look like an extinction scenario for them.

The Vinlanders will have to make contact with the Plague, they cannot dodge it, it just kept resurging too often.

Perhaps one of the ships captured poaching their fish is taken to the Royal city (Haakonsby?) and rats from it escape...

In a way, that would be yet another lucky break for the Vinlanders, -and the natives. No rapacious european powers to take advantage of the shock.

I am not sure about what would happen in Europe with the Mongol invasions. Except that a whole-heraterd attempt at conquest would have been utterly devastating, no matter if they succeded or not. this would get quite complicated I think.

Perhaps there could be a surge in North Atlantic piracy in the 1350s to 1500 to reinforce isolation?

corourke said:
This is good, but I think contact with the Aztecs and especially the Incas would be delayed more than you have accounted for. Honestly I could see complete ignorance of the Incas until other Europeans discover them. What's the Great Lakes region look like in this timeline? The plains? I've always imagined that, given horses and enough time, the plains indians could develop nomadic civilizations very similar to those that appeared on the Eurasian steppes, which kind of seems similar to what you're getting at here.

Also, because of the Mongol devestation of Europe, you can probably push back the appearance of other European fishing ships for fifty years or so, if you felt so inclined.

Looking at it, I think you are very right about the Incas! They did not start expanding untill 1438, so by the time we reach 1500, they should barely have contact with the Aztecs. This will happen later, if at all.

The Aztecs though...the Vinlanders will have heard some tales from natives. With the known searoutes back to europe unsailable, I could see a few adveturous souls sailing the easier trip down the coast around "Florida" and into the Gulf of Mexico. Once there, the amount of gold present will keep interest high. Compared to europe, there will probably be massive inflation in gold value shortly after.

With the new geography, it looks as though the religous group will be the one sitting on those trade routes though.

Also, the diseases introduced by the Vinlanders will have caused Mesoamerican butterflies.

Originally I saw the Great Lakes as the home of a new norse paganism/indian animism hybrid warrior culture. However, now I see the lakes as the heartland of the new Six Nations Confederacy.

I still pland to have a young man find the historical records of the Mongols, and regard them as a horse-warfare-on-plains howto manual. Call him -Draco.

The new plains empire should sweep down south at great speed, and be the force that really introduces the new technologies in mesoamerica. Perhaps they follow on the heels of the plague?
 
Europe in the aftermath of the Mongol invasion ca. 1280:
The German Princes and Dukes would see themselves as the Bulwark of Europe reconquering Austria and Poland and battle the Mongol khanate of Hungary, that holds a check on Europe. The clergy of Germany would work in close cooperation with the Princes blessing German arms and campaigns. Also the Germans will be VERY xenophobic on foreigners, especially anybody looking asian.

Likewise the Spaniards will undertake a reconquista of Southern France and Italy, also relying on church support - not the catholic one but the new Spanish as fragmented from Rome as the German one.
Other players in France will be Bretons from the west and English from across Channel. These are however met by the Germans in the Low Countries with fierce opposition.
Generally the reconquest of France is a late starter due to the campaign in Spain and the Mongol khanate of Orleans, that only recently was disbanded.

With the Mongols on the southern shores of the Baltic and in Russia the Swedes look west to Norway and Denmark - or its remains! The Swedes go for it but they also run into the territorial aggressive Germans in Jutland.

The Catholic church is suffering from the martyrdom of the last pope - nobody's going to repeat that feat. As the holy see is vakant the Princes of Europe sees fit to use their local church for their own purposes. Everybody is still more than preoccupied with reorganizing their own lands and the church is left to itself, except where its resources are used to advance the Princes' objectives. This development will have significant implications on the church later on as Princely control will weaken the organization of the church, as will the fragmentation and subsequent reliance on local holdings by "national" church lords.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Interesting framework. The POD is different.:)

A few points:

The population number of 500,000 seems to be remarkably high for such a short period. Quadurpling of the population in under 60 years would be nearly unheard of, particularly in an era of high infant mortality, & more critically, death in or immediately after childbirth. If you assume a starting population of 120,000, including the normal scattering of children & older persons, you would be fortunate to have a female childbearing age population of 30, 000. Assuming that all of them are fertile with fertile partners (something of a stretch, but okay), and an infant mortality rate of 40% (not unreasonable even into the early 20th Century) & a childbirth death rate of 10% you can assume a maximum birth/survival potential of 52% of your new births & breed population. When you add in the appalling death rate of all persons in the era due to everything from infected wounds to the flux to warfare, I would be stunned to see an overall population increase of 100%.

BTW: You cite the growth in Germany & Scandanavia as a demonstration of growth potential, but the figures you cite indicate less than a trebeling over a 340 year period. Even this figure is remarkable.

You also seem to underestimate the horrifying impact of disease that the Vinlanders (and especially their livestock) would have on the native population. I seriously doubt that you would find much of either the Aztec or Inka empires still intact when the first explorations are made into the Mesoamericas. The diseases of Europe spread far faster than the Europeans themselves, this was true IOTL and would certainly be true ITTL. There is increasing volumes of research that indicate that the die off in the Americas' beginning with 1st prolonged contact, was as high as 90% in high population areas. Even of they did not mean too, the Vinlanders have brought Small Pox, Measles, Influenza, Anthrax, & the remaining Pandora's Box of Old World illnesses & plauges to the New World. Nothing good will follow.

Attacking a three masted vessel, regardless if it is from Christian Europe, the Sultan's fleet, the Mongol Navy, or China's trading fleet in 1480 is not going to go the Vinlander's way. A three master WILL have at least four, more likely eight 6 or 8 pounders, two to four swivel guns, and 50+ match or flintlock Muskets on board to deal with raiders, pirates, and natives (i.e. Vinlanders) stupid enough to attack the Barque or Schooner. Gunpower weapons would be quite the surprise for the Vinlanders.

Best of luck with your timeline!
 
Keep 'em coming, please. Especially on events in Europe.

Just wanted to say I will return to this soon, when I can adress a few of the points in more detail.
 
CalBear said:
Interesting framework. The POD is different.
CalBear said:
A few points:

The population number of 500,000 seems to be remarkably high for such a short period. Quadurpling of the population in under 60 years would be nearly unheard of, particularly in an era of high infant mortality, & more critically, death in or immediately after childbirth. If you assume a starting population of 120,000, including the normal scattering of children & older persons, you would be fortunate to have a female childbearing age population of 30, 000. Assuming that all of them are fertile with fertile partners (something of a stretch, but okay), and an infant mortality rate of 40% (not unreasonable even into the early 20th Century) & a childbirth death rate of 10% you can assume a maximum birth/survival potential of 52% of your new births & breed population. When you add in the appalling death rate of all persons in the era due to everything from infected wounds to the flux to warfare, I would be stunned to see an overall population increase of 100%.

It is indeed exceptional for a population not in the demographic transition phase. I don't believe it is entirely impossible, though. Today, disease-racked african countries have a 36-year doubling period.

The demographic pyramid is very different from a normal one. The old people will be nearly totally absent, and children will be few at arrival. Certainly the majority of settlers will be young adults to adults, breeding age. A small scattering of older people will be fleeing and surviving the voyage.

The point about male settlers outnumbering the females is well made. I did check the history of the Norwegian settlement of Iceland to see if a similar problem occurred there, but the settlers seem to have taken care to bring enough women. (Incidentally, selectivity at that point is anecdotally referred to as the reason for the stunning looks of Icelandic women)

Perhaps the fighting in Europe will generate a surplus of widows and maids that can buffer the population? Unlikely, I suppose.

Causes of death for a while should be mainly infections, accidents and disease. Unless numbers of women settlers were on the low side, in which case violence should increase.
After the initial contacts, diseases would cause a massive die-off of the native population. The first fifty years or so would be almost entirely free of warfare.

Disease lethality will be lower as well for two reasons. First, despite the maritime communications, people are too spread out to provide good reservoirs for contagious diseases. Diseases like the flux, caused by drinking water with the bug in it, will be very rare. (costal settlements). Smallpox, coming from dairy husbandry will be present, but remember how vaccination was discovered? Dairymaids immune to smallpox from exposure to cowpox germs.
Most people in this age share a house with their cattle.

The second reason would be the access to large amounts of protein. A well-fed population would have far better resistance to disease.

Also, the least healthy would be among the ones lost on the voyage.

Given that we are starting with a very abnormal demographic pyramid, the normal formula for population growth cannot be used.
Dr. Susan Scott argues persuasively in “Demography and Nutrition” that malnutrition, from which the bulk of the population suffered, was the major factor that regulated demography in historical times, its controlling effect operated via the mother before, during and after pregnancy.
This is supported by Scott, Duncan, and Duncan in Infant mortality and famine: a study in historical epidemiology in northern England (available on PubMed)
Given that we here have a good climate, a healthy starting population of breeding age, with good climate coping skills, little human competition and massive access to nutrition, a doubling each generation during the halcyon first two generations doesn’t seem unrealistic. Although it certainly does seem exceptional!

Incidentally, I think we must assume a lower survival than 52% for childbirth, or we are pushing a million people in 1300! Most preindustrial societies would have large numbers of children per family, if possible.
On the other hand, Hanawalt, in “Growing Up in Medieval London” cites 14.4 maternal deaths for every 1,000 births in 15th century Florence. This figure rises to approximately 20% when deaths resulting from complications of pregnancy or some condition related to child-bearing, rather than the birth process itself, are added.
But these are numbers for a large number of people in less hygienic conditions, and with less available nutrition.

CalBear said:
BTW: You cite the growth in Germany & Scandanavia as a demonstration of growth potential, but the figures you cite indicate less than a trebeling over a 340 year period. Even this figure is remarkable.

It was a period of good climate. The increased agricultural yield allowed a rapid increase in population in spite of a far worse environment in terms of disease and violence.

CalBear said:
You also seem to underestimate the horrifying impact of disease that the Vinlanders (and especially their livestock) would have on the native population. I seriously doubt that you would find much of either the Aztec or Inka empires still intact when the first explorations are made into Mesoamerica. The diseases of Europe spread far faster than the Europeans themselves, this was true IOTL and would certainly be true ITTL. There is increasing volumes of research that indicate that the die off in the Americas' beginning with 1st prolonged contact, was as high as 90% in high population areas. Even of they did not mean too, the Vinlanders have brought Small Pox, Measles, Influenza, Anthrax, & the remaining Pandora's Box of Old World illnesses & plagues to the New World. Nothing good will follow.

You are probably correct. Although I did mention that adding in the Black Death would push it towards an extinction event for the natives, I neglected to consider butterflies from there.

So let us see: The north Americas: We might lose the six nations to butterflies. I really want them, though, and there are some who argue that the confederacy is older than 1400. So I'll exercise some fiat, and say that this is an example of a process where the political and social pressures cased a similar result, even if the people who were involved in OTL got butterflied.

Doing so more than once would strech credibility, though. So we lose the Aztecs and Incas to butterflies. The Aztecs are no big loss, some other civilization will take their place. Contact will not be large enough for the change to make much impact on the Vinanders.

Pity about the Incas. Pragmatic, adaptable and occupying a highly defensible territory, they would have been good later. Can't have it all.

CalBear said:
Attacking a three masted vessel, regardless if it is from Christian Europe, the Sultan's fleet, the Mongol Navy, or China's trading fleet in 1480 is not going to go the Vinlander's way. A three master WILL have at least four, more likely eight 6 or 8 pounders, two to four swivel guns, and 50+ match or flintlock Muskets on board to deal with raiders, pirates, and natives (i.e. Vinlanders) stupid enough to attack the Barque or Schooner. Gunpower weapons would be quite the surprise for the Vinlanders.

I have been unclear, I see. Sorry. The three-master I was trying to describe is a Dogger, a small standard fishing vessel of the time. Two or three masts, and the high aft is for cleaning fish. Climatic changes and disputes with he Hansa led some of them to the desperate step of going further afield to fish during this time. They were stable, but not fast or manuverable, and if loaded with fish, somewhat low-riding.

Even with the ever present threats of piracy, I don’t think financially stretched cod fishermen around 1500 would have access to cannon. Probably not even a pistol. Some defensibility would be added by the raised area for gutting fish, but I doubt the could handle a naval vessel based on the Viking longboat design.

Even though pirates was a consideration, desperately poor fishermen were, I think, unlikely to have cannon around 1500.

CalBear said:
Best of luck with your timeline!

Thanks!
 
Ok.

1500s: Plague and dragonfire:

Next we have two events following each other quite closely.

First, towards the western end of the six nations, bouncing back from the diseases that hit 200- 250 years earlier, a wealthy Vinlander businessman and horsetrader makes an opportune marriage for his daughter. He marrying her to a chief of one of the plains peoples in peaceful contact with the six nations, hoping for good trade relations. Some 8 years later, in 1485 their firstborn, a child of unusual size, is sent to Håkonsby (prince Edward Island) to be educated.

The longships sailing the Great Lakes impressed the boy, whose original name is lost to history. Not nearly as much as the riding warriors in the east did, though.

His grandfather had paid for a very good education for the boy. Initially it was quite wasted. The childs exceptional size, and fiery temper got the half-skræling child into fights almost daily, to the monks despair. And for a year, he paid almost no attention to his lessons.
They called him Draco -the Dragon. A name he took to with delight.
With some connections to western plains peoples "rulers", the despairing monks tried to have the child educated by some of the palace teachers -a fateful desicion.

The fighting men was interesting, and the boy took to the weapon training of the other wellborn children with delight. This was noted by one of the palace teachers, trying to harness the boys energy and interest in fighting who introduced him to the histories, including the tales of the Mongols.

The boy was quite bright, and saw a manual of plains and horse warfare in the tales of the Khans.
His teachers noticed with pleasure how the boys interest in scholarly work jumped, and the rapid improvement in his reading skills.

From then on he devoured histories on warfare, tactics, and even some adminsitration. he took note of the early clashes between Skrælings and Vinlanders, and how ships had been used.
Although he still showed little interest in the religous side of his education.

Many apochryphal tales exist about Dracos time in Håkonsby. One of the more creditable states that he burned the history books and killed his teacher to keep his knowledge to himself.

When he returned to the west, the young giant brought with him a herd of horses, and an already well formed philosphy of the importance of movement and communication in warfare and empire. He would have agreed absolutely with the notion that speed kills. The enemy.

The second even was the capture of a dogger, a decade and a half later, on the rich fishing banks off Markland (New Foundland)

A few rats escaped from the ship as it was pulled into the harbor...and the Black Death had arrived in Vinland.

The plague devastated Vinlanders and Skrælings alike. It moved through the Vinlander nations like wildfire. And on the heels of the plague came the Dragon Khan.

Over the next quarter century, fire and war followed the plague down North America. At the end of his campaign, by 1530, Draco Khan controlled a territory streching from the Yucatan to Greenland.

The Dragon declared that a capital would be built, at the present-day intersection of the Ohio and Missisippi rivers, and settled down on the Dragon Throne to an ambitious program of roadbuilding and riverclearing. (Speed, speed, speed) Outbreaks of plague was dealth with in a straightforwards and draconian manner.

Now, here is a bit of an quandry. Draco will either assure his succession firmly, or, like many conquerors, fail to plan for his own death. I suspect he will drop dead before 60, going from perfect healt to dead in the time it took him to hit the ground. Heart attack. Such size and power does not come without a cost.

If Draco has a succession firmly in place, the first european contact will find a massive, christian empire. I suspect his successor will be more religous, using conversion and a centralized religon (we have not touched on the history of the thocracy developing in the south) to cement his power.

John is a good christian name, and the people would call him John the Priest.
In Norwegian, that is actually Prest John.

It may even be a bored Dragonspawn that sends a fleet to europe. They know its there, and a thousand ships full of hard-eyed professional warriors could arrive off Ireland.
And with no knowledge of gunpowder. Good effort boys, thank you for playing.

If he does not have a succession in place, the Dragonspawn will eat themselves. The War of a Hundred Princes follow the fall of Draco Khan.
Tactics and new notions are spread quite rapidly, as the continent is engulfed in warfare with the plague surging back and forth.

Several of the Dragon Princes would go afield, and cross the Rockies with warbands rather than engage in that war.

The first europeans would find a war-torn but more advanced america, balkanized but militarized.

What do you think?

Next: what happened in europe.
 
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Might be a revival of the Moorish states in Spain?
Only if a strong North African group like the Marinids allied with the mongols and started a war against Spaniards in two fronts, but I doubt it. The Marinids were not strong as the Almohads or even the Almoravids, and probably would feared the Mongols.

Taking apart a North African involvement, I think in a new Iberian coalition to fight Mongols, similar to the other that destroyed the Almohads in Las Navas de Tolosa (1212), but also including the Muslims of Grenada. Yes, they were not very good "friends" of the Christians, but they know how the Mongols where and what they did with the Muslim cities in the Middle East.
 
I think you should have Draco Khan continue the line of descent through the oldest female sibling. It fits in more with many of the Eastern Native American traditions, while also allowing for the need (or want of female children).

Think about it. There could be a Vinlander version of Henry the VIII, breaking from the Vinlander version of the Catholic Church, in order to remarry to beget a daughter in order to gaurantee the seccession.

As to the Mound Builders. If the Vinlanders are travelling the coast of North America (Håkona?), some would have attempted to sail up the Mississippi and met the Mound Builders, or their remnants, at about the same time as they would meet the Maya and Aztec. If not sooner.
 
No succession - leaves room for infighting, waxing and waning empires, exodus of the defeated to new lands, watchtowers in the Rockies and a possibility of shifting alliances when the europeans reappear. Also a fast spread of gunpowder due to shifting alliances. And then the impossibility of the appearance of a distant relative that climbs the power ladder due to looks and lineage of Draco Khan.
 
Sovereign12 said:
I think you should have Draco Khan continue the line of descent through the oldest female sibling. It fits in more with many of the Eastern Native American traditions, while also allowing for the need (or want of female children).

Think about it. There could be a Vinlander version of Henry the VIII, breaking from the Vinlander version of the Catholic Church, in order to remarry to beget a daughter in order to gaurantee the seccession.

As to the Mound Builders. If the Vinlanders are travelling the coast of North America (Håkona?), some would have attempted to sail up the Mississippi and met the Mound Builders, or their remnants, at about the same time as they would meet the Maya and Aztec. If not sooner.

If you've sailed the Great Lakes fairly well, wouldn't it be simpler to float down the Mississippi? If the Great Lakes is your primary focus of colonization, and it make sense when you consider that many Scandinavians later settled in Minnesota and the rest of the area, why wouldn't they check ot the "Father of Waters"?

Much safer than hurricane waters....JMO
 
Sovereign12 said:
I think you should have Draco Khan continue the line of descent through the oldest female sibling. It fits in more with many of the Eastern Native American traditions, while also allowing for the need (or want of female children).

Think about it. There could be a Vinlander version of Henry the VIII, breaking from the Vinlander version of the Catholic Church, in order to remarry to beget a daughter in order to gaurantee the seccession.

As to the Mound Builders. If the Vinlanders are travelling the coast of North America (Håkona?), some would have attempted to sail up the Mississippi and met the Mound Builders, or their remnants, at about the same time as they would meet the Maya and Aztec. If not sooner.

It is an interesting idea, and I rather like the addition of more elements of Native American culture in. The Six Nations in TTL would be a mix of Vinlander european and native traditions.

On the other hand, with his formative years spent in Håkonsby, Draco will be heavily exposed to their model of administration. And the base of the Håkonsby rulers claim to power is his patrilineal descent from the Kings of Norway.

If there is a succession war, I could see the eastern tribes attempting to raise princesses to the Dragon Throne, either under their own power or as fronts for husbands and clans. Adding futher factions to the chaos.

On the mound builders, it seems that the culture extended up into OTL Wisconsin, so some contact will certainly have occured. The culture also seems to have had a period of decline after about 1250, and is often thought to have succumbed to european diseases.

I would surmise that the effects of european diseases would cause the culture to go into a more rapid decline than in OTL. By the time there is regular contact with the Vinlanders, they are suffering from a triple whammy.
Whatever factor caused them to have a poor period at the time has been joined by european diseases at just the wrong time, and the worsening climate is bad for an agricultural people pressed by nomads.

I can see them fall quite rapidly, unless they aqquire good developments from the Vinlanders. The purchase of iron weapons, and more diverse crops perhaps.
But increased contact means worse disease impacts...

I think they would in the main fall fast and hard. However, unlike OTL, there is not a replacement by nomadic lifstyles. Diseases also hits their competing cultures, and population density drops so much that competiton for land is not fierce.

A few smaller chiefdoms contract and survive, having adaped some Vinlander notions, and trading with them. There are signs of some expansion and a minor rennessance by the time the Black Death followed by Draco sweeps down.

On the direction of contact, I expect the Vinlanders will make contact at both ends of the Missisippi, but the northern end will be the first, and the regular trading route.
 
Umbral said:
Ok.

1500s: Plague and dragonfire:

Next we have two events following each other quite closely.

First, towards the western end of the six nations, bouncing back from the diseases that hit 200- 250 years earlier, a wealthy Vinlander businessman and horsetrader makes an opportune marriage for his daughter. He marrying her to a chief of one of the plains peoples in peaceful contact with the six nations, hoping for good trade relations. Some 8 years later, in 1485 their firstborn, a child of unusual size, is sent to Håkonsby (prince Edward Island) to be educated.

The longships sailing the Great Lakes impressed the boy, whose original name is lost to history. Not nearly as much as the riding warriors in the east did, though.

His grandfather had paid for a very good education for the boy. Initially it was quite wasted. The childs exceptional size, and fiery temper got the half-skræling child into fights almost daily, to the monks despair. And for a year, he paid almost no attention to his lessons.
They called him Draco -the Dragon. A name he took to with delight.
With some connections to western plains peoples "rulers", the despairing monks tried to have the child educated by some of the palace teachers -a fateful desicion.

The fighting men was interesting, and the boy took to the weapon training of the other wellborn children with delight. This was noted by one of the palace teachers, trying to harness the boys energy and interest in fighting who introduced him to the histories, including the tales of the Mongols.

The boy was quite bright, and saw a manual of plains and horse warfare in the tales of the Khans.
His teachers noticed with pleasure how the boys interest in scholarly work jumped, and the rapid improvement in his reading skills.

From then on he devoured histories on warfare, tactics, and even some adminsitration. he took note of the early clashes between Skrælings and Vinlanders, and how ships had been used.
Although he still showed little interest in the religous side of his education.

Many apochryphal tales exist about Dracos time in Håkonsby. One of the more creditable states that he burned the history books and killed his teacher to keep his knowledge to himself.

When he returned to the west, the young giant brought with him a herd of horses, and an already well formed philosphy of the importance of movement and communication in warfare and empire. He would have agreed absolutely with the notion that speed kills. The enemy.

The second even was the capture of a dogger, a decade and a half later, on the rich fishing banks off Markland (New Foundland)

A few rats escaped from the ship as it was pulled into the harbor...and the Black Death had arrived in Vinland.

The plague devastated Vinlanders and Skrælings alike. It moved through the Vinlander nations like wildfire. And on the heels of the plague came the Dragon Khan.

Over the next quarter century, fire and war followed the plague down North America. At the end of his campaign, by 1530, Draco Khan controlled a territory streching from the Yucatan to Greenland.

The Dragon declared that a capital would be built, at the present-day intersection of the Ohio and Missisippi rivers, and settled down on the Dragon Throne to an ambitious program of roadbuilding and riverclearing. (Speed, speed, speed) Outbreaks of plague was dealth with in a straightforwards and draconian manner.

Now, here is a bit of an quandry. Draco will either assure his succession firmly, or, like many conquerors, fail to plan for his own death. I suspect he will drop dead before 60, going from perfect healt to dead in the time it took him to hit the ground. Heart attack. Such size and power does not come without a cost.

If Draco has a succession firmly in place, the first european contact will find a massive, christian empire. I suspect his successor will be more religous, using conversion and a centralized religon (we have not touched on the history of the thocracy developing in the south) to cement his power.

John is a good christian name, and the people would call him John the Priest.
In Norwegian, that is actually Prest John.

It may even be a bored Dragonspawn that sends a fleet to europe. They know its there, and a thousand ships full of hard-eyed professional warriors could arrive off Ireland.
And with no knowledge of gunpowder. Good effort boys, thank you for playing.

If he does not have a succession in place, the Dragonspawn will eat themselves. The War of a Hundred Princes follow the fall of Draco Khan.
Tactics and new notions are spread quite rapidly, as the continent is engulfed in warfare with the plague surging back and forth.

Several of the Dragon Princes would go afield, and cross the Rockies with warbands rather than engage in that war.

The first europeans would find a war-torn but more advanced america, balkanized but militarized.

What do you think?

Next: what happened in europe.
Both versions are good. So I suggest compromise. In my opinion Draco's empire is too big to be controlled anyway. Even with succession planned and in place Draco's death would easily cause attempts secede from empire and end result could be one big state and several smaller in peripheries. Most natural areas to mutiny and succeed would be oldest viking settlements in Atlantic coast. They would have population base to succesful military challenge and control of the sea would balance against empire's cavalry power. End result could be smaller but still enormous empire based inland and smaller kingdoms in eastern seaboard border roughly in Appalachians. With cold war between them european contact would produce interesting situation.
 
Ah, good idea. How about a double secession? The Yucatan cultures are far away from the centre of power, and culturally very different. A sucession fight allows the two ends of the empire to break off.

Perhaps with the Six Nations having a client status.
 
Umbral said:
Ah, good idea. How about a double secession? The Yucatan cultures are far away from the centre of power, and culturally very different. A sucession fight allows the two ends of the empire to break off.

Perhaps with the Six Nations having a client status.




Not to beat a dead horse, but how about Draco Khan having two identical twin sisters, both claiming to have the true heir of the empire. The one could have a strong base of appeal in the Yucatan/Mexico. The other in the Mississippi Valley. Leaving the original areas of Vinland to go back to there traditional form(s) of governing.

All three could be strong naval powers, especially with the Yucatan nation looking toward the southern continent for expansion. The Mississippi towards the west, and Vinland north and back towards Europe.

As whats happening in Europe. I definitely see the Papal See moving to Switzerland.

I also think that the British Isles would have been inundated with French and Low Land refugees escaping the Horde as best as they can. Plus Germans, Poles, and Low Landers may flee to Scandinavia, thus making up for the Scandinavians that had fled to the new world.
 
I think both twin sisters would have their powerbase in the same area -the Skræling/Vinlander area Draco was born. Their claim rests on the matrilineal tranfer of power, which I dont think applied in the Yucatan...of course, one of them could marry herself to power after losing a struggle with her sister...

A war at the edge of the Six Nations area could provide an excuse for them to slip the leash, too.

I think at least one of the original Vinlander groupings have been slipping in power for a while, but it hasn't been important before, so I havent touched on it.

The more religous grouping holding the southern costlien of the Vinlander dominion. A policy of forced conversion and hostility to the Skrælings had inhibited their growth for a long time. Unable to progress much against the Skrælings on their own territory, they are still restricted in numbers and territory.
 
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