With a POD of 1939, get these countries to get the same reputation and treatment as Germany, Italy, and Japan. Make them as villianized as possible in popular media such as movies and video games and people like Petain and Plaek Phibunsongkhram equally hated as Adolf Hitler.
Vichy France, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, and Thailand gets the same reputation as Nazi Germany, Italy, and Japan
- Thread starter Admiral Bloonbeard
- Start date
I agree with Post, regarding Italy.
And there must be a series of POD's before 1939,since you will have to give them a leading role,not just the support roles that they have it otl.
For example a Italy that does not need German support in north Africa,and meaby have Vicky them join.
As for Bulgaria Romania and Hungary it is a bit more complicated since you will have to make them work together and take on the soviets with realive success,and meaby send some troops West and a better/successful Soviet and Russian entertainment industry, that produce a series of games and movies about the war with the three.
And there must be a series of POD's before 1939,since you will have to give them a leading role,not just the support roles that they have it otl.
For example a Italy that does not need German support in north Africa,and meaby have Vicky them join.
As for Bulgaria Romania and Hungary it is a bit more complicated since you will have to make them work together and take on the soviets with realive success,and meaby send some troops West and a better/successful Soviet and Russian entertainment industry, that produce a series of games and movies about the war with the three.
Have Codreanu and the Arrow Cross in power in 1939 and allied with Germany from the outset. And having their troops used as occupation forces in Europe to free German troops for the front.
Have them be as willing accomplices in war crimes as the Germans and Japanese are. I mean, there's a reason the Ustase are reviled in the Balkans.
France under us occupation instead of de gaulle im charge and white washing history
France under someone else than Pétain and being active Axis nation and participate to Holocaust even more actively than in OTL. Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria should be more active too and commtiing more infamous war crimes. Thailand is pretty difficult when it was pretty much puppet of Japan. Perhaps Thailand should fight more furiously and surrend only with Japan.
I'd argue that the axis minors lean more toward victim myself.
Vichy France was the humiliated shell of France (that was also broadly popular with the French people until 1942 or so).
Hungary and Bulgaria were nations with grievances with their neighbors stemming from WWI. Bulgaria didn't even send troops to the eastern front.
Rumania was faced with either facing down Nazi Europe by themselves or cooperating.
Thailand I admittedly don't know enough about to comment.
Also, this isn't to say that these nations were completely innocent either. Bulgaria committed horrific reprisal killings in Greece, and Hungary and Rumania were complicit in anti partisan actions in the occupied Soviet Union.
(though, a few of my Ukrainian historian friends say the Hungarian occupation zones in the Ukraine were fairly light handed. I even have a friendship tapestry made by a local Ukrainian township that was given to the Hungarian unit that was stationed there)
Thailand had been kicked around by Britain and France for a few decades and now had Japan at its doorstep threatening to do the same, and since Japan was doing well and was allied with the Germans who were doing an incredible job against Britain and France, the choice seemed fairly obvious especially given the alternative meant a swift and total occupation.
Vichy France was heavily interested in collaboration with Germany (wanting a true genuine collaboration : France supporting Germany, and in return Germany alleviating the armistice, and later France being the right hand of Germany in the New Europe). Darlan (as a Prime Minister) was even pushing for military collaboration.
It was the Germans who were reluctant. They used this collaboration policy to extract more concessions from France. But they never gave much in return, and never saw Vichy France as a partner (even junior partner), and always wanted to humiliate and downgrade France.
If Germans had been more open to collaboration, Vichy France could easily have been a full member of the Axis.
It was the Germans who were reluctant. They used this collaboration policy to extract more concessions from France. But they never gave much in return, and never saw Vichy France as a partner (even junior partner), and always wanted to humiliate and downgrade France.
If Germans had been more open to collaboration, Vichy France could easily have been a full member of the Axis.
mial42
Gone Fishin'
I'm not sure "broadly popular" is the right phrase. I think "not actively opposed" is more accurate: most people accepted Vichy, but weren't enthusiastic about it.
Pétain was popular and seen as a savior. And even after the war, most people (including Resistance veterans) believed, or wanted to believe, that Pétain's collaboration with Germany had merely been a ruse to protect France from the occupier (while preparing for resistance). Ironically, most German officers and party officials believed it too during the war (which gave it more credence later). BTW, this idea that Petain only pretended to collaborate is a lie.
Pétain was popular as a figure. His prime ministers, however, were not (and took the blame for everything). And Vichy as a regime had limited popularity.
The bulk of conservatives, right wingers and fascists were happy with Vichy's internal policies (giving prestige and some privileges to the Church, anti-communism, forbidding strikes, antisemitism...).
French fascists were happy with collaboration and wanted France to fully participate in the New Europe (and fight Judeo-Bolshevism) with fervor, but those people were a small minority.
Most right-wingers didn't like to see France as a German vassal (as they were patriots) but at least, Hitler and the Vichy regime opposed the Commies... and there was "no choice" anyway since Germany had won in '40, so France should curry favor with Berlin. However distateful it could be.
Those right wingers either collaborated with Germans, or supported Vichy's internal policies while being apathetic towards Germans, or supported Vichy's internal policies while resisting German occupation. (It needed some interesting mental gymnastics).
If Germans had accepted to turn France into a true partner, all those people would have supported Vichy and the collaboration even harder (and with less reluctance and ambiguity).
WhiteDragon25
Banned
Codreanu was already dead by 1939, having been killed the previous year in 1938. Unfortunate for this thread's scenario, as Codreanu and the Iron Guard being power in Romania is the easiest candidate to fulfill our purposes, given the Iron Guard was notorious for exceeding the SS in its wanton brutality against Jews. Instead of the Iron Guard meeting its bloody end in their failed 1941 rebellion against Ion Antonescu, imagine them being in charge of Romania with Codreanu as leader, all the way up to 1944 when the Red Army comes knocking and steamrolls them. Instead of holding power for only five months (from September 1940 to January 1941), having six-to-seven years more (depending on 1938 or '39 being when they seize power) results in their atrocities becoming a lot more widespread and well-known internationally.
They can easily make Romania a contender for the dubiously-coveted status of "Most Evil Axis Power" alongside Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan (Fascist Italy gets more of a Participation Award, given how utterly useless they were as an Axis Power).
I think it depends whom you ask, opinions in Ethiopia or former Yugoslavia for example tend not to have fond memories of Italian occupation to put it mildly.
However, I agree there is some difference. Italy left the Axis almost two full years before the end of the war, though even that was handled... messily. Technically Italy (well, her arguably legitimate government and her Resistence) ended the war on the Allied side, though it was treated as a defeated power in full in the peace (and rightly so in my view). Italian atrocities were horrific, but not to German or Japanese levels in scale (for lack of means if nothing else).
Captain Homicide
Kicked
If you ask most people in the West to name just one atrocity that Italy committed during WW2 they wouldn’t be able to name a single one while the exact opposite applies to Germany and Japan.
True. Also, lots of people think of Mussolini as "not that bad" simply because he wasn't Hitler's level of Evil.
A timeline based on this would be great to read, and especially if Axis still lost. What happens to France after a possible loss?
It depends. Mostly, if Vichy French colonial administrators and officers (and their colonies) still rallied the Allies after Operation Torch-equivalent in North Africa. If not, the French Empire would likely be dismantled (though Britain might be reluctant as giving French colonies independence sets a bad example...).
thaddeus
Donor
maybe some "carrot and stick" approach could have the Vichy regime participate in the u-boat warfare? Admiral Darlan was not a sympathetic figure even attempting to join the Allied side, French submarines in the Med and Second Happy Time off US coast, would cast him as a real villain.
Hungary was accused of "murder tourism" in the Balkans by the Germans, maybe saved their reputation that the bulk of their troops were sent to the Eastern Front? (and the fact they did not have a well known leader?)
Hungary was accused of "murder tourism" in the Balkans by the Germans, maybe saved their reputation that the bulk of their troops were sent to the Eastern Front? (and the fact they did not have a well known leader?)