Vice Presidential Challenge

At any point from 1900 onwards, would it have been possible and indeed realistic for a sitting US Vice President to either challenge their President in the primaries/at the convention or to run as a third party candidate against their President. In addition, would it also have been possible for the VP to refuse to resign from office (legally they are within their rights) and still mount an electoral challenge to their President?
 
At any point from 1900 onwards, would it have been possible and indeed realistic for a sitting US Vice President to either challenge their President in the primaries/at the convention or to run as a third party candidate against their President. In addition, would it also have been possible for the VP to refuse to resign from office (legally they are within their rights) and still mount an electoral challenge to their President?

Uh, you do know of the Garner campaign of 1940? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nance_Garner
 
This is essentially what happened in 1940, except in reverse. FDR delayed his announcement that he was running for a third term until the convention, so Garner announced his candidacy. Roosevelt said he would run if drafted at the convention, and a "spontaneous" call for Roosevelt to run again made him win the nomination. If FDR announced his candidacy earlier, it's plausible that Garner still would have mounted a primary challenge given the falling out between the two after the attempted court packing.
 
OK, let's grant that 1940 was a unique situation--the unprecedented nature of the third term, FDR's bring coy for a long time on whether he would run again, etc. Can we think of some other possibilities?

Maybe if Gore-Lieberman is elected in 2000, and Gore doesn't go to war with Iraq (I happen to think Gore would, but that's a debate for anther day) Lieberman runs against him in 2004 in protest?

Or Hiram Johnson accepts Harding's alleged offer of the vice-presidential nomination in 1920 (doubtful), the convention accepts him (more doubtful), the ticket is elected (a virtual certainty) and Harding manages to live until 1924 (unlikely but possible)? Does Johnson challenge Harding as both too scandal-plagued and too conservative?
 
Dick Cheney has a fatal heart attack in November 2000. Bush still emerges as President following the Florida debacle, but Vice President Elect Cheney's death eventually causes the decision as to who should succeed Al Gore to reach the Senate. The Senate elects Senator Joseph Lieberman as Bush's Vice President.

Vice President Lieberman then runs for the Democratic nomination in 2004 after brief talk of a Bush/Lieberman 2004 unity ticket falters.

Now having the Democratic Party actually nominate Lieberman is difficult-almost impossible.
 
OK, let's grant that 1940 was a unique situation--the unprecedented nature of the third term, FDR's bring coy for a long time on whether he would run again, etc. Can we think of some other possibilities?

Maybe if Gore-Lieberman is elected in 2000, and Gore doesn't go to war with Iraq (I happen to think Gore would, but that's a debate for anther day) Lieberman runs against him in 2004 in protest?

Or Hiram Johnson accepts Harding's alleged offer of the vice-presidential nomination in 1920 (doubtful), the convention accepts him (more doubtful), the ticket is elected (a virtual certainty) and Harding manages to live until 1924 (unlikely but possible)? Does Johnson challenge Harding as both too scandal-plagued and too conservative?

Alternatively, have Gore win but pick someone other than Lieberman who is bitterly opposed to a Gore decision to invade Iraq. Said VP resigns in protest and runs as an anti-war candidate in the primaries.
 
How about Obama chooses Clinton as VP, and a major scandel/event causes Clinton to resign and Primary Obama?
 
How about Obama chooses Clinton as VP, and a major scandel/event causes Clinton to resign and Primary Obama?

If there tensions can be subdued enough close to the convention, the. I think that is a very likely thing. Any little thing to reignite tensions, I suppose.
 

Deleted member 16736

One possibility that springs to my mind is that Reagan and Ford hammer out a deal in 1980 for a "co-presidency" ticket. If they manage to win in the fall (no sure thing, in my opinion) then Ford is stuck as Reagan's VP. The two men were not very fond of one another to say the least, so I could see Reagan backtracking on parts of his deal with Ford or pursuing policies with which Ford did not agree with a "what's he going to do about it" attitude. If tensions are high enough, Ford could resign in protest to some of Reagan's more conservative policies, be made aware of the fact that he would be dropped from the ticket in 1984, or essentially be stonewalled by the administration and sent overseas to visit the countries of the world in alphabetical order from Afghanistan to Zimbabwe. Either way Ford isn't going to be happy with Reagan and might decide along with a few other Republicans to mount a challenge during the primaries.

Actually, I could see Ford getting together with some other disgruntled Republicans to run Ford as the "national" candidate where he would do well but letting others run as favorite sons of their states or regions in order to win a significant enough block of delegates at the convention to block Reagan's renomination. It would make for a fun timeline.
 
One possibility that springs to my mind is that Reagan and Ford hammer out a deal in 1980 for a "co-presidency" ticket. If they manage to win in the fall (no sure thing, in my opinion) then Ford is stuck as Reagan's VP. The two men were not very fond of one another to say the least, so I could see Reagan backtracking on parts of his deal with Ford or pursuing policies with which Ford did not agree with a "what's he going to do about it" attitude. If tensions are high enough, Ford could resign in protest to some of Reagan's more conservative policies, be made aware of the fact that he would be dropped from the ticket in 1984, or essentially be stonewalled by the administration and sent overseas to visit the countries of the world in alphabetical order from Afghanistan to Zimbabwe. Either way Ford isn't going to be happy with Reagan and might decide along with a few other Republicans to mount a challenge during the primaries.

Actually, I could see Ford getting together with some other disgruntled Republicans to run Ford as the "national" candidate where he would do well but letting others run as favorite sons of their states or regions in order to win a significant enough block of delegates at the convention to block Reagan's renomination. It would make for a fun timeline.

OMG. Someone make this and PM the link PLEASE. Ford = Grover Cleveland 2.0 with the Reagan Revolution's head being cut off. Anything. That would be such a cool story. (Maybe Rumsfeld becomes Reagan's second VP candidate if he wins or decides to run independent)

Actually, that brings up a point. If the President is defeated by his party, he may just decide to run on something dubbed along the lines of the National Ticket for reelection.
 
One possibility that springs to my mind is that Reagan and Ford hammer out a deal in 1980 for a "co-presidency" ticket. If they manage to win in the fall (no sure thing, in my opinion).

I know this is not the main point of your post, but I'm curious why you think a Reagan-Ford ticket's victory would be "no sure thing." Reagan-Bush won by almost ten points in OTL. I see no reason at all why Reagan-Ford would do substantially worse--let alone ten points worse. Some people on the right wing of the GOP were upset by the thought of Ford on the ticket, but they were also upset by the choice of Bush. As for the general public, they almost elected Ford in 1976 and probably thought more highly of him in 1980 after four years of Carter. In fact, some moderate Republicans who voted for Anderson in OTL might vote for Reagan if he had Ford on the ticket.

It may be an exaggeration to say that "Nobody votes for the veep" http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...minute/2000/06/nobody_votes_for_the_veep.html but most political observes are convinced that the choice of a running mate sways relatively few votes. It can matter in a close race, but 1980 was not close.
 
Alternatively, have Gore win but pick someone other than Lieberman who is bitterly opposed to a Gore decision to invade Iraq. Said VP resigns in protest and runs as an anti-war candidate in the primaries.

If you look at the people who were most talked about as running mates for Gore in 2000--Gephardt, Kerry, Graham, Bayh, etc.--none of them seems dovish enough to challenge Gore over going to war with Iraq (though it is true that Graham did vote against authorizing use of force). http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/e98/e2315.htm
 
Carter picks Kennedy in 1976 instead of Mondale. Not sure if that would ever happen, but let's just say for the sake of this post it does. Carter picks Kennedy, runs to the right in his presidency, isolates Kennedy, who feels useless, especially in the healthcare fight (Kennedy felt he should be included in the debate and push to get something passed with his ties in the Senate). Everything goes to hell like in reality, Kennedy announces he's running to unseat Carter in the 1980 primary.

I doubt this is viable considering Kennedy's baggage is way too much for Carter, who was morally conservative and probably turned off by Kennedy's alcoholism and philandering. But...
 
Carter picks Kennedy in 1976 instead of Mondale. Not sure if that would ever happen, but let's just say for the sake of this post it does. Carter picks Kennedy, runs to the right in his presidency, isolates Kennedy, who feels useless, especially in the healthcare fight (Kennedy felt he should be included in the debate and push to get something passed with his ties in the Senate). Everything goes to hell like in reality, Kennedy announces he's running to unseat Carter in the 1980 primary.

I doubt this is viable considering Kennedy's baggage is way too much for Carter, who was morally conservative and probably turned off by Kennedy's alcoholism and philandering. But...

Apart from the unlikelihood of Carter offering the vice-presidential nomination to EMK, there is the even greater unlikelihood of EMK accepting. He had seen how Humphrey's standing with liberals had plummeted as a result of being LBJ's vice president...
 

Deleted member 16736

I know this is not the main point of your post, but I'm curious why you think a Reagan-Ford ticket's victory would be "no sure thing." Reagan-Bush won by almost ten points in OTL. I see no reason at all why Reagan-Ford would do substantially worse--let alone ten points worse. Some people on the right wing of the GOP were upset by the thought of Ford on the ticket, but they were also upset by the choice of Bush. As for the general public, they almost elected Ford in 1976 and probably thought more highly of him in 1980 after four years of Carter. In fact, some moderate Republicans who voted for Anderson in OTL might vote for Reagan if he had Ford on the ticket.

It may be an exaggeration to say that "Nobody votes for the veep" http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...minute/2000/06/nobody_votes_for_the_veep.html but most political observes are convinced that the choice of a running mate sways relatively few votes. It can matter in a close race, but 1980 was not close.

I agree that people don't normally vote for the Veep, but I think Ford would be a special case because the whole point of the ticket would be to run as a "co-presidency." So there will be a lot of attention given to Ford, a known quantity who will clearly have an outsized influence on the Reagan administration compared to any previous Veep.

Further, it seems like there would be a lot of cognitive dissonance between the top and bottom of the ticket. Reagan was running as an outsider and as a conservative and Ford's main appeal was that he had a reputation as a moderate when he was already president. Where Bush was a moderate, he wasn't going to upstage Reagan and the ticket and campaign were both still about Ronald Reagan. If Ford is on the ticket then the story is going to be about Reagan challenging Ford in 1976 and what Gerald Ford thinks about Ronald Reagan's policies and why he agreed to run on a ticket with a man who personally and professionally he dislikes. Meanwhile, the guy who pardoned Nixon and who voters rejected only 4 years ago is now only a heartbeat from the oval office while the oldest president to ever take the office is inaugurated.

I think Ford is a net drag on the ticket for those reasons, probably turning off more independents than he brings in, and no Anderson campaign, or at least a less popular one, would probably help Carter more than Reagan. I'm not saying that Carter would win, but it's going to be closer than it should (say within 3-4%) and a better Carter campaign could make up that difference.
 
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Deleted member 16736

OMG. Someone make this and PM the link PLEASE. Ford = Grover Cleveland 2.0 with the Reagan Revolution's head being cut off. Anything. That would be such a cool story. (Maybe Rumsfeld becomes Reagan's second VP candidate if he wins or decides to run independent)

Actually, that brings up a point. If the President is defeated by his party, he may just decide to run on something dubbed along the lines of the National Ticket for reelection.

I would, but I've never done a TL and really lack the time to do the research to make a good one even if I did. Anyone else who wants to steal that idea and run with it is more than welcome to do so.

The problem with running a third party ticket is ballot access. A president who loses at the convention in, say, August would have a very hard time meeting the ballot access deadlines in a lot of states for a potential third party run. And his success would be further limited to his lack of access to the machinery of one of the major parties. Someone unpopular enough to get the boot from his party would probably not even have the 15% required to make it into a presidential debate!
 
If you look at the people who were most talked about as running mates for Gore in 2000--Gephardt, Kerry, Graham, Bayh, etc.--none of them seems dovish enough to challenge Gore over going to war with Iraq (though it is true that Graham did vote against authorizing use of force). http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/e98/e2315.htm

It's a different perspective being VP and on the NSC having access to the data versus being in Congress facing reelection. It's not that much of a stretch to see Gephardt or Kerry having access to all the facts and drawing a conclusion different from their OTL vote.

Alternatively, take the POD back a few years and throw in a popular Democratic governor from a swing state with a good political operation that can deliver his/her state who has political ambitions of their own who Gore doesn't particularly like, but for whom the political case is compelling. It didn't take a genius to see Iraq going bad and the opportunity to capitalize politically on that for such a VP pick.
 
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