Viability of French Hegemony over Europe?

Faeelin

Banned
"That's the question: How much of Europe, and for how long, could France govern, if they avoid obvious mistakes (invading Russia, completely ruining the economy)? In my Chaos TL, they make similar conquests (Iberian peninsula, most of Germany) - for a generation they rule half the continent, but then their empire begins to crumble too."- Max

Any thoughts on this?

Let's make these assumptions:

-Napoleon places Ferdinand on the Spanish throne in 1808, and avoids losing hundreds of thousands of Men in Spain. Life sucks for Spaniards, as their economy contracts thanks to Britannia, but a million of them don't die, so it's a net gain.

-Austria doesn't revolt in 1809 as a result, and by 1813 Bonaparte and Britain hammer an uneasy truce.

So, you have Bonapartes on the throne of Holland, Westphalia, Sicily, and Italy (basically the northern territories). French troops are garrisoned as far east as Danzig, but how stable will this be?
 

Othniel

Oh..why did this have to be on the Bonapartes.:( Clearly they aren't the best example or oppertunity for French hegemony, jst the quickest and most recent.

France had better oppertunity than the quick methods of the Napoleon, under methods like the Reunion policies. Given fourty years France coulddo the same thing as Bonapart with the Bourbons. The aquire territory, and centralise method had worked since the Capetians!

France is prefectly capable of establising dominance over Europe for more than a short period of time. If they aviod major wars and aquire territories through diplomatic marriage, and keep them through poltics then nations fall into their influence, and through that influence they create a greater hegomony.
 

Max Sinister

Banned
IMO it becomes tricky once nationalism enters the stage. The Bourbons might avoid this, republican France and Napoleon couldn't. It's a difference whether you centralize one nation, or assimilate smaller people like Bretons and Basques, or whether you try to reign over parts of a big people (Germans, Italians, Spanish) who'll start to wonder whether they really want that.
 

Calgacus

Sure, nationalism is bad news for a french Empire, but what about a hegemony? Keep Germany and Italy divided (as a more powerful France might) and a French-dominated alliance becomes quite possible. Say the West German states, Bavaria, Austria even...
 

Redbeard

Banned
Let the French trash the Habsburgs and their allies decisively somewhen in Louis XIV's reign - we could call it advancing the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire by a 100 years or so.

That would leave France in clear dominance of Europe at a time when France had a relatively much greater mass in demographics and economy and even a fairly smart monarch. And nationalism is still far from being even conceived.

Russia is still an infant power, Prussia is just a distant province and with the Habsburgs pacified there are no serious opposition on the continent. Meanwhile France can grow the strength to challenge GB overseas by mid 18th century, and this time probably without fighting a major continental enemy too.

The biggest challenge to the French hegemony will probably be having the French monarchy adabt fasts enough to the dynamics of the real world. Without a strong parilamentary tradtion and its usually strong PMs what will happen the first time a twit is on the throne, of the last three have been twits?

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 

Faeelin

Banned
Max Sinister said:
IMO it becomes tricky once nationalism enters the stage. The Bourbons might avoid this, republican France and Napoleon couldn't. It's a difference whether you centralize one nation, or assimilate smaller people like Bretons and Basques, or whether you try to reign over parts of a big people (Germans, Italians, Spanish) who'll start to wonder whether they really want that.
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But did they?

I mean, the Italians in the Kingdom of Italy loved Napoleon, as did Germans in the Rhineland. The Belgians were loyal up until 1814 too.
 

Calgacus

Redbeard said:
Let the French trash the Habsburgs and their allies decisively somewhen in Louis XIV's reign - we could call it advancing the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire by a 100 years or so.

That would leave France in clear dominance of Europe at a time when France had a relatively much greater mass in demographics and economy and even a fairly smart monarch. And nationalism is still far from being even conceived.

Russia is still an infant power, Prussia is just a distant province and with the Habsburgs pacified there are no serious opposition on the continent. Meanwhile France can grow the strength to challenge GB overseas by mid 18th century, and this time probably without fighting a major continental enemy too.

The biggest challenge to the French hegemony will probably be having the French monarchy adabt fasts enough to the dynamics of the real world. Without a strong parilamentary tradtion and its usually strong PMs what will happen the first time a twit is on the throne, of the last three have been twits?

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
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My ongoing and stalled timeline Division of Crowns is based on that very possibility...
 

Max Sinister

Banned
Belgium and Italy were ruled by foreign dynasties before the French came. So the only difference was that Napoleon governed better, why shouldn't they prefer him?
 

Othniel

The only time it seems to come in play is with the Spainsh. If France can gain direct inhiertance to the Spainsh corwns rather than having to deal with the Habsburgs, French hegomony seems very possible over Western Europe. Russia isn't really a threat until they can sucessfully industrialise, and if you can get Austria to devolve then you have no serious competion on the continet. This leaves Sweden and England who can both be manipulated into the postion Spain held post-Phillip II.
 

EvolvedSaurian

Othniel said:
The only time it seems to come in play is with the Spainsh. If France can gain direct inhiertance to the Spainsh corwns rather than having to deal with the Habsburgs, French hegomony seems very possible over Western Europe. Russia isn't really a threat until they can sucessfully industrialise, and if you can get Austria to devolve then you have no serious competion on the continet. This leaves Sweden and England who can both be manipulated into the postion Spain held post-Phillip II.
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And Sweden would eventually be lesft behind as a great power. England could be hemmed in by continuing support to Scotland.
 

srv fan

What good can come from a hegemonous french???
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It was in a slightly different time period, but just from a very few years of French hegemony under Napoleon in our TL...

- spread of nationalism and Enlightenment ideals
- largely eliminated the outdated feudal system of governance found in Germany and Italy and planted the seeds for future unity.
- created a common European legal code

But hey, what have the French ever done?! Freedom fries!
 

Faeelin

Banned
Max Sinister said:
@Faeelin: OK - most of Italy.
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Or what about Holland, where a substantial number of people preferred Louis Bonaparte to the House of Orange?

I don't see why there's any reason that people will want to overthrow the French if they are prosperous.
 

Max Sinister

Banned
It doesn't have to stay forever like that. The French can't do miracles. A later generation will take the achievements made thanks to them for granted, but will notice everytime the French do something they don't like, and some of them will get the idea "If we only were independent, things like this couldn't happen!"
 

Faeelin

Banned
Max Sinister said:
It doesn't have to stay forever like that. The French can't do miracles. A later generation will take the achievements made thanks to them for granted, but will notice everytime the French do something they don't like, and some of them will get the idea "If we only were independent, things like this couldn't happen!"
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But why would they think that?

I mean, this depends on how French Europe is run. If it's a one-way common market, things are a bit different.

Besides, how likely are they to press for independence? They clearly can't win without outside help,and who will give it?
 

Max Sinister

Banned
OK - so it depends on many things. Whether they have a common enemy (Britain, Russia?). Whether the French will allow justified criticism, or suppress anything which sounds anti-French. Whether they force Germany to implement things like the continental system which hurt German economy. How many freedoms they give the Germans. And many more.
 

Fabilius

In a sense they almost had hegemony during Louis XIV reign. I mean culturally speaking they were quiet influential.

Remember hegemony can be acheived not just through battle. If England could get into a much nastier civil war and lose Scotland, and if Prussia had a stupid monarch, France could continue for a longer time their golden age. If France could become more liberal they might avoid a nasty revolution and voilá.

US military hegemony is not as much as their cultural hegemony. They had a cultural hegemony before WW2
 
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