Viability of a Spanish march/province on southern France

[Rancaeli]

Greetings, albeit being a longtime lurker on this forum, this is my first post. I hope i can stay as a active member for a long time.

Anyways, lets say that Castile or Aragon manage to conquer Gascony or Languedoc on the XV or XVI century or inherit them, although probably this requires an earlier POD.

• How viable is for them to hold this territories to this day? I mean, i imagine France would try to reconquer this lands, but her main focus will remain on Flandes and Germany.
• How much can Spain push their borders away from the Pyrinees? Although mountains are good natural barriers, the pyrinees on the basque side arent as dense as the aragonian and catalonian side. Is the Garonne too deep to even try to impose a frontier there?

Now, i personally think that anything beyond the Garonne or the Toulose-Narbonne Axis would be impossible for the spanish to hold (They are begging practically for another HYW or 80YW, but closer, if not, on home), but if you think the opposite, i would like to read you.

 

[kasumigenx]

Greetings, albeit being a longtime lurker on this forum, this is my first post. I hope i can stay as an active member a longtime.

Anyways, lets say that Castile or Aragon manage to conquer Gascony or Languedoc on the XV or XVI century or inherit them, although probably this requires an earlier POD.

• How viable is for them to hold this territories to this day? I mean, i imagine France would try to reconquer this lands, but her main focus will remain on Flandes and Germany.
• How much can Spain push their borders away from the Pyrinees? Although mountains are good natural barriers, the pyrinees on the basque side arent as dense as the aragonian and catalonian side. Is the Garonne too deep to even try to impose a frontier there?

Now, i personally think that anything beyond the Garonne or the Toulose-Narbonne Axis would be impossible for the spanish to hold (They are begging practically for another HYW or 80YW, but closer, if not, on home), but if you think the opposite, i would like to read you.

They can inherit a part of Gascony if Madeleine or Catherine Albret married either Charles V or Miguel Da Paz.

 

[naraic]

Occitan is closer to Catalan than it is to French so perhaps it would be relatively easy for Aragon to assimilate the locals.

I think at some stage during the HYW there was a Castillian civil war that had different claimants to the throne. One backed by the English and Portugese and one backed by both France and Aragon. If Aragon rows behind the claimant supported by the English maybe this results in a conflict between Aragon and France. This could result in Aragon seizing some Occitan territory.

This would be in the 14th century rather than the 15th century but its the closest I can imagine.

Once France wins the Hundred Year War and centralises I don't think either Spanish state can seize this territory and definitly can't hold it.

If its settled and France acknowledges the territory as Spanish before the end of the HYW maybe it will stay Spanish. Or maybe France will fail to centralise with other powers tearing bits out of them.

 

[Mildtryth]

Greetings, albeit being a longtime lurker on this forum, this is my first post. I hope i can stay as an active member a longtime.

Anyways, lets say that Castile or Aragon manage to conquer Gascony or Languedoc on the XV or XVI century or inherit them, although probably this requires an earlier POD.

• How viable is for them to hold this territories to this day? I mean, i imagine France would try to reconquer this lands, but her main focus will remain on Flandes and Germany.
• How much can Spain push their borders away from the Pyrinees? Although mountains are good natural barriers, the pyrinees on the basque side arent as dense as the aragonian and catalonian side. Is the Garonne too deep to even try to impose a frontier there?

Now, i personally think that anything beyond the Garonne or the Toulose-Narbonne Axis would be impossible for the spanish to hold (They are begging practically for another HYW or 80YW, but closer, if not, on home), but if you think the opposite, i would like to read you.

That is too late - at least for Aragon, your best bet is a POD before the 13th century, and most likely, French royal power would have to remain weak enough somehow for Aragon to remain dominant in the Languedoc.

And about Gascony, remember that Navarra is on the way between them.

 

[Drex]

I think one of the best ways to have a significant Spanish presence is by averting the Albigensian crusade or avoiding a total defeat of pro-cathar forces. At the time, Languedoc, the Midi, and Provence, were essentially fiefs of Aragon, and Aragon was technically sovereign over much of southern France (see here) until the 1258 Treaty of Corbeil, which saw France renounce any rights to the Hispanic March or lands south of the Pyrenees, in exchange for Aragon abandoning Southern France (except Foix). Aragon could exert power and influence over the area with relative ease due to cultural similarities and a common interest in keeping trade up and the Parisians out.

As for Gascony, I recall the dukes of the area swearing loyalty to Sancho III of Pamplona, the same guy who crowned himself "Emperor of All Spains".

 

[Math]

The house of Barcelona were Dukes of Provence, I think there was also a Barcelona aragonian king who was also Duke of Provence , Some of the first Dukes of Gascony may have been of Basque origin

the same guy who crowned himself "Emperor of All Spains".

It was not only him who used this title, other later powerful Iberian monarchs also used it.

 

[ike225]

Alfonso II of Aragon keeps Provence instead of giving it to his brother. Then either Alfonso or his heir marries the daughter of the count of Toulouse. For example, he marries Azalais of Toulouse, daughter of Raymond V. With Raymond VI then dying early.
Alfonso pushing his wife's claim and wins. Their heir then unites Aragon, Toulouse, and Provence.