USA joins the Central Powers.

[Elfwine]

Why would the US have to land in europe anyway? IOTL the CP did rather well alone. ITTL there is no American credit for the entente, but American credit for the CP. That alone could win them the war. Now the Us will also build up their forces and therefore will bind more and more ressources from Britain. And I doubt that Canada would send any troops either.

The Entente needs American credit less than than CP do, and if the US actually wants to force "terms that are highly favorable to its new allies", it needs to actually help Austria-Hungary and Germany achieve a position that IS capable of dictating terms.

 

[Iserlohn]

Why would the US have to land in europe anyway? IOTL the CP did rather well alone. ITTL there is no American credit for the entente, but American credit for the CP. That alone could win them the war. Now the Us will also build up their forces and therefore will bind more and more ressources from Britain. And I doubt that Canada would send any troops either.

Yeah, with the US keeping Great Britain busy in North America British war effort in Europe will be minimal. So in the end Germany has enough power to eventually either steamroll France or "starve" it into submission. Once that is done the UK needs to surrender because of being left with no major allies. So... CP victory by 1917 at the latest (if the US REALLY joins when the war starts, if it were to join at roughly the same point as OTL it'd be over in 1918).

 

[Elfwine]

Yeah, with the US keeping Great Britain busy in North America British war effort in Europe will be minimal. So in the end Germany has enough power to eventually either steamroll France or "starve" it into submission. Once that is done the UK needs to surrender because of being left with no major allies. So... CP victory by 1917 at the latest (if the US REALLY joins when the war starts, if it were to join at roughly the same point as OTL it'd be over in 1918).

I see we've forgotten about Russia (in regards to Britain being left with no major allies). And how is Britain being kept busy in North America to the point it can't maintain more than "minimal" forces in France?

It ought to be noted, incidentally, that France mobilized not far from as many men total as the British Empire (8.2 million vs. 9.5) - and bore the brunt of the war in the West anyway.

 

[Magnum]

If the US suddenly joins the war in August, without any prior preparation, against the Entente AND with only 164k men spread across God knows how many thousands of kilometers, then it would be well withtin the power of the Entente to capture New England and/or the Chicago area before the Americans truly have a chance to mobilize if the US commits to a decisive naval battle and looses.

 

[Hörnla]

If the US suddenly joins the war in August, without any prior preparation, against the Entente AND with only 164k men spread across God knows how many thousands of kilometers, then it would be well withtin the power of the Entente to capture New England and/or the Chicago area before the Americans truly have a chance to mobilize if the US commits to a decisive naval battle and looses.

That is a good point, but Canada wouldn't be armed much better and Paris/London would also need a good deal of preparation in order to pull off such a operations. Until then, the US should at least have been able to organize militias on a scale which allows delaying actions.

Add to that the US Navy, which is far from 2nd rate in 1914 IIRC. The entente navies would have to commit a good deal of their fleets to keep it in check...this in turn might bring the German HSF into play, so we might see a far more intensive naval war.

(The whole thread is fun, but I see little realism in it, however.)

 

[Elfwine]

That is a good point, but Canada wouldn't be armed much better and Paris/London would also need a good deal of preparation in order to pull off such a operations. Until then, the US should at least have been able to organize militias on a scale which allows delaying actions.

Add to that the US Navy, which is far from 2nd rate in 1914 IIRC. The entente navies would have to commit a good deal of their fleets to keep it in check...this in turn might bring the German HSF into play, so we might see a far more intensive naval war.

(The whole thread is fun, but I see little realism in it, however.)

Canada doesn't need to be armed much better, its armed forces aren't scattered across various foreign bases.

The US navy isn't large enough to force its way against the Entente fleets, even if quality wise it's good enough to compare.

 

[Strategos]

First thing to do is to bash Canada over the head, right? Whether or not American troops will be landing in Germany can be decided after that, I'd think.

Everything west of the Great Lakes is automatically forfeitted to America. The problem is is that means that most Canadian grain is cut off too. And then theres the Argentinian food stuffs which America can fuck with.


The USN dosnt need to do shit in regards to actually fighting the RN. Just run around the Atlantic blowing shit up and generally being a nuisance. And the USN can mess with Chile too and much easier than Britain can respond.


In that, does anybody have the oil numbers?


Or can anybody suggest how the war might end in mid 1916 in order for the Entente to save face?

 

[Elfwine]

Everything west of the Great Lakes is automatically forfeitted to America. The problem is is that means that most Canadian grain is cut off too. And then theres the Argentinian food stuffs which America can fuck with.


The USN dosnt need to do shit in regards to actually fighting the RN. Just run around the Atlantic blowing shit up and generally being a nuisance. And the USN can mess with Chile too and much easier than Britain can respond.

Running around the Atlantic blowing shit up and generally being a nuissance is going to get swatted. And the US doesn't have the military power in 1914 to for a single acre to be automatically forfeited.

 

[AaronH]

The US in 1914 joining the war would not be an auto-lose for the entente ESPECIALLY if the US displays it's usual love for the swing-fast, swing-hard and see what happens approach which has always seemed to be their first go to option at the outbreak of war.

If the US steps in as an open ally of the CP and commits its navy to the fight then unless Japan does the same then Japan will be happy to push its control out in the Pacific as well as deeper into China forcing the US to commit its navy to the Pacific theatre to prop up the Kaiserlich Marine in the region.

This leaves the Atlantic Fleet to sail against the RN in Canada which would have been easy to heavily reinforce without too much detriment to the war effort in Europe. By adopting an agressive stance on the land and on the Oceans the US on the Atlantic has a very real chance of having its relatively small navy crippled before the US can properly gear up.

With the US losing control over the Atlantic for at least a year while new ships are build on the east coast and Britain shipping in colonial troops to Canada it seems likely that the US forces due to their initial tiny size will be bogged down in Canada almost indefintely in theory due to the Russian effect, that being that a hell of a lot of Canada is hell to fight in for almost half of the calender year. Thus the US is forced to use its gearing economy to supply its OWN balooning army and the lack of easy sea lane access to Asia due to war with Japan or to Europe due to fighting the entente leave the US economy in an undesirable situation and does not benefit the CP economies at all.

If I had to guess I would put forward the idea of a bloody stalemate to possibly entente eventual victory, if, as seems likely, a majority of the US public begins to exercise their rights to free speech and demanding why the bloody hell they went to war with several of the biggest trading powers in the world with no apparent fast gains at hand, demanding a US exit from the war with the signing of a seperate peace accepting war blame and some sort of reperations.

Remember this is not your post-depression US or your modern day super power....

 

[Elfwine]

It's still an economic giant.

 

[AaronH]

There is no deinal of that, it is however an economic giant stuck in a long standing land war into Canada which it will win granted.....eventually. It also has major interests in regions which were only peripheral to CP traditional interests leaving it to defend them alone which is why I believe that if they moved into the war incautiously at the outset of 1914 the entente could still have ground out a bloody stalemate due to the vocal and isolationist nature of its population especially if said population is being pulled into a war they had no real wish to be part of and with no immediate games and many immediate losses.

I just feel that the US in 1914 would not gain any swift victories and if it is not very...conservative it could face some swift and painful losses leading to a total loss of will for war...

 

[Elfwine]

There is no deinal of that, it is however an economic giant stuck in a long standing land war into Canada which it will win granted.....eventually. It also has major interests in regions which were only peripheral to CP traditional interests leaving it to defend them alone which is why I believe that if they moved into the war incautiously at the outset of 1914 the entente could still have ground out a bloody stalemate due to the vocal and isolationist nature of its population especially if said population is being pulled into a war they had no real wish to be part of and with no immediate games and many immediate losses.

I just feel that the US in 1914 would not gain any swift victories and if it is not very...conservative it could face some swift and painful losses leading to a total loss of will for war...

That I agree on. A POD of the right sort might change the US willingness to fight, but "for no particular reason, the US is aligned with the Central Powers" makes it hard to see what makes the American people support it and face the costs in blood and treasure.

 

[Strategos]

Running around the Atlantic blowing shit up and generally being a nuissance is going to get swatted. And the US doesn't have the military power in 1914 to for a single acre to be automatically forfeited.

Swatted? You mean the RN would be stupid enough to send the minimum 6 Dreadies and BC escorts and etc?

Because all America has to do is run away back to the Carribean and the Gulf, sail through Panama, and do the same shit on the other side.

And its only gonna get worse because by late 1916, the USN will have expanded quite massively, enough for double digit Dreadnoughts. Which means that the British would have to strip away even more from the Home Fleet.

America doesnt have to engage while the British absolutely have to.

 

[krull1m]

America doesnt have to engage while the British absolutely have to.

However America does have to try to defend its coastline from attacks. Running away from the RN and leaving their naval bases, shipyards and important ports open to attack will not be a popular or sustainable strategy.

 

[AaronH]

Indeed where are those double digit dreadnoughts going to come from if the eastern seaboard shipyards have been flattened by the RN and the US is having to engage with the expansionist Japs in the pacific??

 

[Ace Venom]

This is pure ASB without an earlier POD. I can't see the USA declaring in favor of the Central Powers unless they've been dragged into that alliance system for some reason. And if they were dragged into that alliance system, they would likely be more prepared for war in 1914 because the USA would perceive some sort of legitimate threat from the Entente. This would mean they would likely have a stronger navy than in OTL-1914 and probably a better standing army. But without a reasonable POD to put the USA in the Central Powers before 1914, it's just ASB to entertain the notion that the events of OTL would have led the USA to join the Central Powers in 1914.

 

[zoomar]

This is almost (but not quite) ASB. But its fun to speculate. If for some reason the US was predisposed to the Central Powers and immediately entered the Great War on their side in 1914, the entire thing would be come an unpredictable clusterf**k. First, there would be the real possibililty of war (a la Turtledove) along the US/Canadian Border. Britain would have developed a more militarized Canada or there woud be British troops stationed there. Likewise the US would have to concentrate forces in America. This might limit US military nvolvement in Europe to assist the Central Powers.

The strategic situation regarding naval war might the most interesting difference, however. With a powerful US Navy in the Atlantic, coupled with the High Seas Fleet threatening Britain in the North Sea, the Central Powers could maintain a much more thorough and agressive war on British commerce without resorting to unrestricted submarine warfare. On the other hand British naval forces based in Canada could stage raids on US ports coastal shipping and the Carribean. With two major bluewater fleets in action against each other in the wide Atlantic and scouting of great importance, it is possible earlier and more extensive introduction of naval aviation (either carrier based or perhaps via airship) might occur.

Presumably, the US would also have a much more sizeable presence in the Pacific than Germany did OTL, and one might see interesting actions between the Japanese (who would be about seizing US colonies and holdings in the western Pacific as well as German ones). They might even go after Hawaii, which was not yet a major US naval base. Most likely, with a (presuambly even larger than OTL) Royal Navy threatening the US in the Atlantic, the US might let the Japanese have their way at first.

 

[Elfwine]

Swatted? You mean the RN would be stupid enough to send the minimum 6 Dreadies and BC escorts and etc?

Because all America has to do is run away back to the Carribean and the Gulf, sail through Panama, and do the same shit on the other side.

That's an operation far easier said than done, Not to mention not easy on morale or ships.

Britain can easily spare "6 dreadies and BC escorts and etc.". Also, BC escorts? Assuming BC stands for battlecruiser (and I'm at a loss for what else), what?

And its only gonna get worse because by late 1916, the USN will have expanded quite massively, enough for double digit Dreadnoughts. Which means that the British would have to strip away even more from the Home Fleet.

America doesnt have to engage while the British absolutely have to.

America doing this is going to burn huge amounts of coal (or oil) for nothing. This isn't even a coherent commerce raiding strategy, this is just steaming around looking and feeling stupid.

 

[MattII]

If the US joins the CP doesn't this totally screw over the British economy.

 

[Elfwine]

If the US joins the CP doesn't this totally screw over the British economy.

No. It huts, but Britain has trade links all over.