If America took this much of Mexico following the US-Mexican War, perhaps minus Yucatán, what would be the effects?
US annexes more of Mexico-Effects?
- Thread starter Jiraiyathegallant
- Start date
If America took this much of Mexico following the US-Mexican War, perhaps minus Yucatán, what would be the effects?
-Slavery issue gets more heated (no shit, suddenly a lot more potential slave states, meaning more shift in the balance in the Senate)
-pre-war US military gets beefed up (as now there are actual populated parts that doesn't want to be part of the US), which means a bloodier civil war, at least in the earlier stages (larger officer corp, and given the areas being annexed quite a few would still defect to their states if the newly parts decided to succeed). Though if those states do succeed (probably as only because the white minorities are in charge of the government at the state level) they now have to deal with the issue of native/mexican population's unrest.
-pre-war US military gets beefed up (as now there are actual populated parts that doesn't want to be part of the US), which means a bloodier civil war, at least in the earlier stages (larger officer corp, and given the areas being annexed quite a few would still defect to their states if the newly parts decided to succeed). Though if those states do succeed (probably as only because the white minorities are in charge of the government at the state level) they now have to deal with the issue of native/mexican population's unrest.
Adding a third major racial block earlier would do interesting things earlier. If they stay loyal to the union even if their state defects I can see them gaining a lot of rights in reconstruction. Maybe better treatment of the natives? Or easing of anti-Catholic sentiment in the country?
On the other hand these new states/territories will likely have higher federal soldier to population ratios compared to the South. Pro-slavery whites might be in charge of state governments but the Mexican population and the Federal soldiers stationed there aren't going to be too enthused with secession. I think much of this new territory could either sit out the war or devolve into something like Bloody Kansas depending on how much immigration from slave states they get.
Anti-Catholic sentiment in the US really hit its stride as an outgrowth of the KKK and the post-Reconstruction South. I don't think that more Catholics (especially non-white Catholics) will do anything but make that same group double down. On the other hand, the additional voting power of so many new citizens will probably dampen their impact on the national stage but I fully expect them to still be there.
Guaymas and Tampico will be major ports. Tampico might be one of the largest cities in the country, and it will have a cross-border counterpart which will likewise be among the largest cities in Mexico. Culiacan in Sinaloa will also be a much, much more important city TTL. California will be at least two states.
Meanwhile, the Rio Grande is full of small regional cities at best, and backwater rural towns at worst. Arizona (much smaller without the Gadsden Purchase) will have a lot fewer people TTL.
Doubt it, given the region had been subject to massive Indian raids (the Comanche were raiding deep into that territory not long before the Mexican American War), and Mexico was fighting the Yaqui in Sonora until the 1920s. The last battle in the Indian Wars in the US was spillover from the Yaqui War. The Yaqui and anyone else will get the same treatment as their northern neighbours received from the United States, at the request of the community leaders in Sonora.
Meanwhile, the Rio Grande is full of small regional cities at best, and backwater rural towns at worst. Arizona (much smaller without the Gadsden Purchase) will have a lot fewer people TTL.
Doubt it, given the region had been subject to massive Indian raids (the Comanche were raiding deep into that territory not long before the Mexican American War), and Mexico was fighting the Yaqui in Sonora until the 1920s. The last battle in the Indian Wars in the US was spillover from the Yaqui War. The Yaqui and anyone else will get the same treatment as their northern neighbours received from the United States, at the request of the community leaders in Sonora.
The Know-Nothings were a major anti-Catholic political movement before the Civil War if I'm not mistaken.
Don't forget, that part of northern Mexico wasn't heavily populated at the time. Non-Hispanic Whites could end up outnumbering the Hispanic population.
Silly, tiny trivia: ulama, direct descendant of the ancient Mesoamerican ball game, is still played in rural Sinaloa communities. If America annexed Sinaloa, you might see ulama develop into a major sport like basketball without OTL Mexican social pressures against it and with the USAmerican passion for sports.
FillyofDelphi
Banned
Indeed. "No Rum, Romanism, or Rebellion" was a strong plank on the Know-Nothing (which ended up being associated with the Republican) social platform; largely as a response to competition with on the lower rung/distaste for on the higher run with Catholic immigrants in Northern cities. This, alongside Southern Democrats being the likely main American settlers in these regions, is likely to align them to the Democratic party... which gives them a decent buffer against Republican population domination and stronger regional control for the South over the party apperatus.
Mexico City was, I believe, taken by the Americans. I'm not sure they're at an assertive position to disagree.
Well now I’m actually interested in seeing this happen.
In Mexico the cultural stigma against ulama was apparently based on the fact that it was viewed as “uncivilized” compared to modern Mexican society. I’m sure the US would be patronizing towards these regions too, but you might see a Mexican native romanticism spring up that would lead to the popularization of the sport ITTL.
Philip
Donor
Maybe Some bored officers of a US garrison decide to gamble on the games as the Mexicans play. Perhaps some bored soldiers from the garrison unit pick up the game and it spreads throughout the army.
If America took this much of Mexico following the US-Mexican War, perhaps minus Yucatán, what would be the effects?
The map shows Cuba being annexed. Did the US go to war against Spain too in this TL?
The Yucatan too, maybe? It's not impossible, but I think the most likely outcomes for the Yucatan in larger-annexation timelines would be a neo-colonial relationship like the Antilles or Central America had, or return to Mexican rule.
Great point. Especially as the southern slave owners mentality, and face it they run the state governement's, they would no doubt treat the new Americans, (former Mexican citizens) with disdain and cause a natural opponents within who might prefer the Union instead of second class citizenship status that they may have to endure from the slave owning classes.
I wonder if this is good for the Apache and Navajo. Some of their land is more in the middle of nowhere from the US government's perspective, and this is firmly in the loooong period when inattention was one of the better things native communities could hope for.
The intercontinental railroads, for starters. There'd still be the first route through Utah to San Francisco, and a northern route closer to the Canadian border, definitely. But if Tampico becomes a major port - and I think I agree it is likely to - it makes a lot of sense to run the southern route further south than its our TL equivalent. The route could be significantly shorter (and thus cheaper), and anyway there has to be a southern route, strategically speaking.
Of course TTL's US could just go and build four main routes across the continent early on, instead of OTL's three, so it might not be so different.
Assuming civil war still breaks out in 1860, I think some of the Extra America would reflect Native American experiences during and after the war. US heavy-handedness and military strength spike at about the same time, so conflicts will arise between "normal" Americans and those outside the system (if perhaps "less" outside the system than the Sioux et al). Overreactions will follow, and some of the excluded will get excluded-er. Not to mention shot.
Mostly I would not expect a Mexican uprising, though. Instead I'd expect "white" towns to tend to defect to any Confederacy-like body, as with OTL's "Arizona Territory". Tampico in particular will declare itself against the Union, barring extraordinary action on behalf of Federal military leaders.
The elephant in the room is that between 1848 and 1861, there is a lot of room for knock-on's and butterflies in Mexico and Europe. European military intervention is not inevitable. If it does come, a much smaller Mexico poses an altogether different challenge for any imposed regime. If a major invasion doesn't take place, though, we're faced with the question of how Mexico would respond politically to a prolonged US civil conflict.
The intercontinental railroads, for starters. There'd still be the first route through Utah to San Francisco, and a northern route closer to the Canadian border, definitely. But if Tampico becomes a major port - and I think I agree it is likely to - it makes a lot of sense to run the southern route further south than its our TL equivalent. The route could be significantly shorter (and thus cheaper), and anyway there has to be a southern route, strategically speaking.
Of course TTL's US could just go and build four main routes across the continent early on, instead of OTL's three, so it might not be so different.
Assuming civil war still breaks out in 1860, I think some of the Extra America would reflect Native American experiences during and after the war. US heavy-handedness and military strength spike at about the same time, so conflicts will arise between "normal" Americans and those outside the system (if perhaps "less" outside the system than the Sioux et al). Overreactions will follow, and some of the excluded will get excluded-er. Not to mention shot.
Mostly I would not expect a Mexican uprising, though. Instead I'd expect "white" towns to tend to defect to any Confederacy-like body, as with OTL's "Arizona Territory". Tampico in particular will declare itself against the Union, barring extraordinary action on behalf of Federal military leaders.
The elephant in the room is that between 1848 and 1861, there is a lot of room for knock-on's and butterflies in Mexico and Europe. European military intervention is not inevitable. If it does come, a much smaller Mexico poses an altogether different challenge for any imposed regime. If a major invasion doesn't take place, though, we're faced with the question of how Mexico would respond politically to a prolonged US civil conflict.