Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War

[Wolttaire]

I feel like Troy walking in on absolute chaos.

For whatever reason, I didn't get any notifications for this thread in the last few weeks. And here I find out that not only did I miss an update, but also a flame war.

PS. What is threadcapping and why shouldn't we be doing it?

I see your a man of culture as well(honestly one best comedy shows on tv)

What have indians tribes been up too in this war so far same as otl? I imangie their been some changes due to kanas being way different

 

[Tjakari]

H

The problem of course is that is also where a sunk costs fallacy can comes in

Which is why the doubt is only allowed to creep in long after the point where it could have done any good.

Let me clear, I don't think this kind of self-improvement is redemptive.

If anything, it's the exact opposite. What a change of heart later in life is, to me anyway, is proof-of-capacity. That's a capacity to be better, think better, do better, etc.

The person they became, they could have become earlier. That they learned after means they could have learned during or even before.

The amount of pain and misery that a person has to go through just to change their mind is a very frightening thing about our species.

It wouldn't be better if people never changed their minds, ruminated on their regrets and become different people. But it'd be some kind of mental comfort to know those of us who are most savage and inhumane are so as as fact of their disposition, rather than as the result of the convoluted mess of influences and internal reasonings that are actually at fault.

Being able to essentialize the evil that men do would make the world a lot simpler.

I see your a man of culture as well(honestly one best comedy shows on tv)

Since we're talking about evil, I must confess a sin.
I've never seen Community.

 

[dmg86]

California raised several regiments otl that served in New Mexico turning back a confederate attempt to take the gold producing areas in Arizona and New Mexico and parts of west Texas. The state also had a brigade from Pennsylvania credited to them for a time. The brigade was at the center of Picket's charge.

 

[Athelstane]

There's no way that Forrest or anyone like him can maintain the rightness of his cause or his actions if he so much as budges an inch. The only way for him to maintain the validity of his own course in life was to win the war. I read that farewell to his soldiers and I think there's a creative license for anyone writing about the man to cite that -- the Confederate defeat -- as the first chink in his worldview.

If you're writing in reference to me - since I was the one who linked the address, that is - I wasn't meaning to suggest that. Because in truth, I don't have a good handle on just where or when a "chink" happens in his worldview. I know something about Forrest, but I'm not really prepared to represent myself as an expert.

I *am* struck by it when I compare it to Lee's final address, or for that matter any of the final addresses of Confederate commanders I've read, firstly because it goes a lot farther, rhetorically, toward trying to reconcile his men to peaceable acceptance of defeat and reunion, than Lee or any others. In a lot of ways, it's the kind of appeal Grant urged Lee to make, but Lee didn't quite do. Secondly, because, well, it's Nathan Bedford Forrest. Not the guy you expect that from. This is a guy who pulled a gun on Frank Cheatham and threatened to shoot him if he didn't let Forrest's troopers cross a bridge before Cheatham's corps in the retreat from Nashville - just four months before he wrote that address.

Of course, then again, you also get his involvement with the Klan later, which (while its exact nature continues to be debated) seems to be in some tension with the address, so....like I say, picking a moment isn't easy.

As for what's redemptive, I suppose it depends on what we mean by that term. Certainly from a Christian (soteriological) perspective, broadly speaking, anything is possible at any time. If we mean redeeming his character into something good, I'd hate to foreclose the possibility, though it may be that his financial failures and impending mortality had to give him a harder shove. If we mean his redemption as a public figure worthy of honor - well, *no* - and that's not inconsistent with the other understandings of the term as it might apply to him.

 

[Odinson]

In the spirit of this thread, I feel its appropriate to wish everyone a happy Juneteenth!

 

[Tjakari]

Of course, then again, you also get his involvement with the Klan later, which (while its exact nature continues to be debated) seems to be in some tension with the address, so....like I say, picking a moment isn't easy.

The way I was using "moment" or "chink" shouldn't be understood a turning point in behavior. If that's what you're looking for then you're never going to find it because you simply weren't there and we have no sources until well after he seems to make a change.
What I meant was, the last months of the war which culminated in the surrender were probably (emphasis on probably, this is a character read of a stranger) the last time in his life he was sure about what he was doing.
It wasn't the last awful thing for him to do. It wasn't the point where he got fed up with himself. It wasn't a turnaround.

It was just the first time he had to give a little, bend instead of break.

And that concession is what I'm saying is most consequential to the course of the man's moral life. So that he could, in the future, make an actually substantive change.

As for what's redemptive, I suppose it depends on what we mean by that term.

If we mean his redemption as a public figure worthy of honor - well, *no*

It would have to be the latter definition. I don't feel it proper to judge a man who was obviously working on himself, in any other way than this.
I could only speak to what he definitely was and definitely did, make a judgement on that, and hope it doesn't continue to ring true for his character later in his life.

But that isn't the same thing as absolution, I don't think.

 

[VaultJumper]

In the spirit of this thread, I feel its appropriate to wish everyone a happy Juneteenth!

indeed happy Juneteenth.

 

[piratedude]

Incidentally today is also my birthday

 

[Kurt_Steiner]

Happy birthday, @piratedude!

 

[Tjakari]

Incidentally today is also my birthday

Feliz! Cumpleaños!

 

[piratedude]

Happy birthday, @piratedude!

Feliz! Cumpleaños!

Thank you!

 

[SwampTiger]

In respect to rebel leaders, can we please return to the thread itself.

 

[Red_Galiray]

I really enjoy the contemporary language you use in the TL, partially because it's a mark of just how much research you put into it but also because it's just so damned immersive. Is Chestnut just a word for Copperhead Democrats that you transplanted onto the National Union or is it something you came up with on your own?

I came up with Chesnut as a catchy nickname to replace the somewhat clunky "National Unionists". The in-universe reason is that Douglas settled in the Chesnut neighborhood of Philadelphia, a wealthy and moderate area, in order to coordinate the opposition to Lincoln. It's also advantageous because it's similar to "Butternut", used to refer to midwestern yeomen who are very opposed to emancipation and racial equality.

Conscripts and Contrabands
Locked and Stocked in Devils Hands
Johnny Reb, the Ku Klux Klan
With Breckenridge, Holding Hands
To Burn the Land of the Honest Man

Can I use this in the TL?

Incidentally today is also my birthday

Happy birthday!

Sooo.... what if anything has California been doing during this messy war so far?

Not much really. The Confederates did attempt their brief occupation of New Mexico but that failed. California is understandably not very involved in National politics, though there is some struggle between Chesnuts and Republicans for political control.

 

[generalurist]

he Confederates did attempt their brief occupation of New Mexico but that failed.

Back in post #2,237 you mentioned the CSA plans to invade California were shelved since Beckinridge realized that was insane. Have you changed your mind since then, or did the CSA decide to only go for New Mexico for some reason?

 

[Red_Galiray]

Back in post #2,237 you mentioned the CSA plans to invade California were shelved since Beckinridge realized that was insane. Have you changed your mind since then, or did the CSA decide to only go for New Mexico for some reason?

...it's kind of embarrassing that my readers know my own story better than me, isn't it? The truth is that I don't have California in mind, so it must have slipped my mind that I already stated that the California invasion was shelved. Let's just say that Breckenridge was against any official offensive but partisans invaded New Mexico nonetheless and were expulsed with even more ease than IOTL.

 

[Evan]

Let's just say that Breckenridge was against any official offensive but partisans invaded New Mexico nonetheless and were expulsed with even more ease than IOTL.

Sounds good. Maybe the Texan governor backed them himself?

 

[VaultJumper]

Sounds good. Maybe the Texan governor backed them himself?

that would be a Texan thing to do

 

[Athelstane]

...it's kind of embarrassing that my readers know my own story better than me, isn't it?

Don't fret it. You've cranked out a pretty high word count already.

 

[Tjakari]

Can I use this in the TL?

Absolutely!

 

[SwampTiger]

Happy Birthday!

Californian troops could help with a Union capture of El Paso and the Panhandle region of Texas and Oklahoma, putting additional pressure on the Trans-Mississippi Command.