Union of The Three Crowns: The History of The Nordic Empire

[Atterdag]

So, with all things considered, should I just say screw it and have the Oldenburgs take the Polish-Lithuanian throne?

I think it would be an interesting path to take it down. Interestingly it’d both be a way to show how the events of your TL leads to changes in the rest of Europe, while simultaneously taking Poland-Lithuania down a surprisingly similar route as otl, with a foreign Scandinavian dynasty taking power. How you’d choose to resolve it is of course up to you, whether you see the PLC starting to decline in this era or have the Oldenburgs reinvigorate the state. How much of the Nordic-Polish relationship would be friendly and how much would be rivalry wouls also be interesting to explore.


Other commenters have suggested this as a vehicle for a Russia-screw. I don’t think it needs to be that just because we get a dynastic link between Scandinavia and Poland. Keeping Russia from ascending to its level of power it did otl would be a great way to keep Scandinavia as a major player, if that’s what you want, but this doesn’t necessarily mean partitioning Russia or anything - keeping it away from the Baltic shore would be enough, and might mean a Russia more focused on Central Asia and the Middle East instead. Way far down the line this could mean a more intense British-Russian rivalry, though it’s far fo early to speculate on such things. Either way, I don’t think a Nordic/polish conquest of Russia is either likely or desirable, it’s a likely way to overextend Scandinavian resources.

 

[Tertius711]

Other commenters have suggested this as a vehicle for a Russia-screw. I don’t think it needs to be that just because we get a dynastic link between Scandinavia and Poland. Keeping Russia from ascending to its level of power it did otl would be a great way to keep Scandinavia as a major player, if that’s what you want, but this doesn’t necessarily mean partitioning Russia or anything - keeping it away from the Baltic shore would be enough, and might mean a Russia more focused on Central Asia and the Middle East instead. Way far down the line this could mean a more intense British-Russian rivalry, though it’s far fo early to speculate on such things. Either way, I don’t think a Nordic/polish conquest of Russia is either likely or desirable, it’s a likely way to overextend Scandinavian resources.

Whittling down European Russia over generations is very possible to me considering how the Kalmar control so much in the north already and PLC controls Belarus and Ukraine.

Taking Siberia is out I agree, but pushing Russia beyond the Urals? Very possible and it would hard lock Russia into Siberia and Central Asia. Quite interesting to think about tbh. A white Slavic 'European' nation that has land only in Asia and likely is gonna have no choice but to expand solely into Asia, likely bringing it into Central Asia, Mongolia, Xinjiang, and Manchuria as well as the Japanese islands. I will be very interested to see how Asia evolves.

Crack idea, like the Mongols and Qing, Asian! Russia conquers China as a new dynasty lmao (just jk I don't actually want this to happen). What I'd actually like to see is a multipolar Asia with southern China having Song 2.0 perhaps, Korea, Japan, and Vietnam expanding greatly, and Asian! Russia squabbling with any Chinese successor states and Korea, Japan, and Vietnam.

 

[marcinL]

So, with all things considered, should I just say screw it and have the Oldenburgs take the Polish-Lithuanian throne?

Have some Oldenburg marry a polish princess (there should be some reason why Poland didnt react to the takeover of Livonia) and either them or their son made heir of Lithuania and by extension be elected to the crown of Poland). The son could concentrate on his Jagiellon descent and be raised in Poland, thus you could have the cake and eat it, by having him be Oldenburg and a native Polish.

 

[TheBeanieBaron]

Have some Oldenburg marry a polish princess (there should be some reason why Poland didnt react to the takeover of Livonia) and either them or their son made heir of Lithuania and by extension be elected to the crown of Poland). The son could concentrate on his Jagiellon descent and be raised in Poland, thus you could have the cake and eat it, by having him be Oldenburg and a native Polish.

I second this idea.

 

[Gabingston]

Have some Oldenburg marry a polish princess (there should be some reason why Poland didnt react to the takeover of Livonia) and either them or their son made heir of Lithuania and by extension be elected to the crown of Poland). The son could concentrate on his Jagiellon descent and be raised in Poland, thus you could have the cake and eat it, by having him be Oldenburg and a native Polish.

I second this idea.

That sounds very plausible. Do you guys have any candidates for an Oldenburg who could marry into the Polish royal family?

 

[Atterdag]

That sounds very plausible. Do you guys have any candidates for an Oldenburg who could marry into the Polish royal family?

I suggested John II of Schleswig-Holstein-Haderslev (1521-1580) earlier in this thread, younger son of otl Frederick I and thus cousin of Christian II. Big pro is that he was unmarried in otl and so would have minimal dynastic butterflies.

 

[Gabingston]

I suggested John II of Schleswig-Holstein-Haderslev (1521-1580) earlier in this thread, younger son of otl Frederick I and thus cousin of Christian II. Big pro is that he was unmarried in otl and so would have minimal dynastic butterflies.

I looked him up on Wikipedia, and it looks like one of his grandparents was a member of the Jagiellonian dynasty, so now a marriage into that family makes even more sense (and not just because of the potential incest). Now, who could be his spouse?

 

[Atterdag]

I looked him up on Wikipedia, and it looks like one of his grandparents was a member of the Jagiellonian dynasty, so now a marriage into that family makes even more sense (and not just because of the potential incest). Now, who could be his spouse?

He was also raised in Prussia so he was close to Poland.

The obvious candidate would be Catherine Jagellonica, otl wife of John III of Sweden and mother of Sigismuns Vasa.

 

[Jürgen]

I suggested John II of Schleswig-Holstein-Haderslev (1521-1580) earlier in this thread, younger son of otl Frederick I and thus cousin of Christian II. Big pro is that he was unmarried in otl and so would have minimal dynastic butterflies.

Big minus is that there were a pretty good reason he didn’t care to marry (he was gay), he was also pretty unambiguous, as when they split Schleswig-Holstein he took the least valuable part, he was also loyal to his older half-brother. Of course he was also a very competent and beloved ruler, who was known for his dyke building and his work on improving education in his duchy. I would say the younger Duke of Gottorp would be a more likely candidate,

 

[Gabingston]

Big minus is that there were a pretty good reason he didn’t care to marry (he was gay), he was also pretty unambiguous, as when they split Schleswig-Holstein he took the least valuable part, he was also loyal to his older half-brother. Of course he was also a very competent and beloved ruler, who was known for his dyke building and his work on improving education in his duchy. I would say the younger Duke of Gottorp would be a more likely candidate,

You have any sources for him being gay?

 

[Atterdag]

Big minus is that there were a pretty good reason he didn’t care to marry (he was gay),

Never heard about this before, what’s it based on? Either way it shouldn’t be too much of a problem, plenty of gay men have married women and fathered children

he was also pretty unambiguous, as when they split Schleswig-Holstein he took the least valuable part, he was also loyal to his older half-brother.

This could be a plus if the king of Denmark wants to use his marriage to build an alliance but avoid giving a powerful foreign allly to an ambitious relative - as happened with Eric XIV and John III.

I would say the younger Duke of Gottorp would be a more likely candidate,

He was certainly a more feisty character with his 10 children, though that carries huge genealogical butterflies which I believe @Gabingston is trying to avoid.

 

[Gabingston]

Never heard about this before, what’s it based on? Either way it shouldn’t be too much of a problem, plenty of gay men have married women and fathered children


This could be a plus if the king of Denmark wants to use his marriage to build an alliance but avoid giving a powerful foreign allly to an ambitious relative - as happened with Eric XIV and John III.


He was certainly a more feisty character with his 10 children, though that carries huge genealogical butterflies which I believe @Gabingston is trying to avoid.

Dynastic butterflies are inevitably going to happen, especially as we get further from the POD, so I'm open to whatever is good for the TL. Still, having the OTL unmarried John II marry Catherine Jagiellon (whose OTL spouse wouldn't have much notoriety ITTL) works too well for me to want to pass up. Also, Sigismund III of Vasa was one of Catherine's OTL children, so there could be an ATL version of him here taking the PLC's throne.

 

[Jürgen]

You have any sources for him being gay?

Not really the few times I have read it, it has always been indirect evidence. He didn’t attempt to marry, lacked mistresses and bastards, and pretty much behaved his entire life like he expected his brothers or nephews would inherit his properties.

 

[Gabingston]

Not really the few times I have read it, it has always been indirect evidence. He didn’t attempt to marry, lacked mistresses and bastards, and pretty much behaved his entire life like he expected his brothers or nephews would inherit his properties.

He might have just been asexual then if there's no direct evidence that he was gay. Either way, if he has the opportunity to marry a major European noblewoman and potentially get his dynasty on the Polish-Lithuanian throne, it'd be hard to pass that up (and I imagine his family would be pressuring him hard to marry).

 

[marcinL]

He was also raised in Prussia so he was close to Poland.

The obvious candidate would be Catherine Jagellonica, otl wife of John III of Sweden and mother of Sigismuns Vasa.

The marriage should be imo before the Livonian war, and the spouse should be the oldest available sister that is Zofia (it was traditional att)

 

[Gabingston]

Union of The Three Crowns: The History of The Nordic Empire

Chapter 12: Poland Stronk​

Having done 11 updates focusing primarily on the Kalmar Union, I figure that it’s time that I broaden my horizons and start talking about other countries, which is what several of my upcoming updates will be about. First up on the chopping block is the land of kielbasa and dancing cows, that being Poland. Well, not just Poland, but rather the union of the Kingdom of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania that controlled a wide swath of Central and Eastern Europe. While they were technically two independent states, they had effectively been in a personal union since 1386, when the Polish Queen Jadwiga (also know as one of the most attractive leaders in Civilization VI) married the Lithuanian Grand Duke Jogaila, tying the two countries’ crowns together.
The Jagiellonian Dynasty would go on to rule Poland-Lithuania for the better part of two centuries, turning the union into one of Europe’s foremost powers. Poland-Lithuania in the middle of the 16th Century was in the midst of the Polish Renaissance, a flowering of culture ranging from the arts to architecture to the burgeoning scientific field. The reigns of Sigismund I and Sigismund II would be remembered as the Polish Golden Age, an era where Poland-Lithuania was at its peak. During this era, Poland-Lithuania was effectively a constitutional monarchy, with the monarch being elected by the nobility, or Szlachta, along with being accountable to said nobility, who made up a larger share of the population (about 10%) than in most other countries, thus making Poland-Lithuania one of Europe’s most democratic countries at the time. In contrast to most of Europe, Poland also had more religious freedom than most of Europe at the time, particularly under the religiously lax Sigismund II. While Poland-Lithuania was still a predominantly Catholic country (or countries), a sizable Protestant movement had developed within the union, with about ¼ of the Polish nobility having become Protestant. In addition, Poland-Lithuania had by the 16th Century the largest Jewish population in the world, as the union was more tolerant towards the Jews than most of the rest of Europe.
However, the Jagiellonian era was coming to an end in Poland-Lithuania. You see, King Sigismund II, despite having been married three times, had no heir, as he was infertile. Thus, upon his death in 1572, Poland-Lithuania had no obvious successor. This would throw the future of the Polish-Lithuanian throne to the Nobility, who would not only have to pick a new king, but a new royal house as well. One of the candidates for the Polish throne was Henry of Valois, the younger brother of the French King Charles IX. Being from the ruling family of one of Europe’s great powers, it was natural that the Polish-Lithuanian nobles would look at him as a suitable fit for their throne. Others included Ernest of Austria, Alfonso of Ferrara and even Ivan The Terrible. There was another candidate though, one that looked to be more of a natural fit for the Polish-Lithuanian throne.
A couple of decades earlier, Sigismund II’s sister Catherine had married John II, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Haderslev. While John hadn’t been particularly interested in marrying, a combination of familial pressure and realpolitik meant that he bit the bullet and did it anyway. They married in 1547, when Catherine was 20 and John was 26, and had their first child, a daughter named Anna in March of 1549. Their second child was also a girl, being born in November of 1551 and named Isabella. The third time happened to be the charm, as a baby boy named Casimir was born in January of 1554. John and Catherin would have three more children after that, Sigismund in May of 1558 (who would unfortunately die not long after birth), Elizabeth in October of 1559 and Bogislaw in June of 1561.
Casimir was lined up to inherit John’s properties, but it was known that Sigismund II was childless, and that Casimir could be a potential candidate for the PLC’s throne. Thus, he (along with his siblings) was given a world-class education for the era, learning to speak Danish, High German, Latin and French in addition to his father’s Low German and mother’s Polish. One thing he didn’t have going for him was that, in contrast to Henry Valois, who was the younger brother of the king of one of Europe’s titans, he was merely the son of a duke, not nearly as prestigious as being the son of a king (but better than being the son of a b*tch, I must say). With that said, the Oldenburgs were still optimistic about his prospects to ascend to the Polish-Lithuanian throne, as he was a grandson of King Sigismund I (and thus nephew of Sigismund II) and was more accustomed to Poland than Henry Valois was, having spent a good chunk of his adolescence there. Thus, when Sigismund II croaked in 1572, it wasn’t entirely sure who would succeed him.
Poland, being an Elective Monarchy, would throw the question of the successor to Sigismund II to the Szlachta. There were a total of 10 candidates for the throne, meaning that this election would take a while to sort out. After a few months, though, the nobles settled on Casimir of Oldenburg to ascend to the throne, as he was the closest blood relative of the previous king, as well as Sigismund II having had good things to say about him, even if he never officially designated a preferred heir. Thus, the House of Oldenburg-Jagiellon was born, and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Kalmar Union now gained strong dynastic ties. Would this lead to a long-lasting alliance between the two countries? Well, not really, but there would be one common point of collaboration in the future. However, that’s a story for another day.

 

[A Random Man]

Nice chapter

 

[Arothir]

Good Job with this chapter @Gabingston, makes for an excellent read

 

[Gabingston]

Nice chapter

Good Job with this chapter @Gabingston, makes for an excellent read

Thanks for the compliments, guys.

 

[Atterdag]

Thus, he (along with his siblings) was given a world-class education for the era, learning to speak German (of both the low and high varieties), Latin and French in addition to his father’s Danish and mother’s Polish. ​

Slight detail, if John spoke Danish it was most likely as a second language, his father famously was raised entirely in (Low) German and barely spoke Danish when he ascended the throne - which suited his councillors fine.

I enjoyed the chapter, there's something to be said about the more laid-back style of writing in this tl. Surprised to see that Casimir (the fifth?) didn't face more opposition being elected, Sigismund in otl was only the third candidate chosen to succeed and had to fight a war of succession against the austrians to enforce his election.