Here's a map of North America in 1900. The South America update should be done in the next few days.
Union and Liberty: An American TL
- Thread starter wilcoxchar
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Calling Greenland and Iceland "Danish America" is quite wrong. They were never considered North America, or even a single unit.
It’s nice to see so much new material since the last time I’ve posted! I especially love your latest BNA update (and the NA Map)! Still, I do have a few questions the BNA update.
Also, is Newfoundland majority Gaelic-speaking like Acadia?
I also find it interesting that the name New Caledonia was chosen over Rupertsland. Admittedly, New Caledonia is a much prettier/poetic name than Rupertsland, but Rupertsland seems to be the more naturally choice.
Still, do locals call New Caledonia Rupertsland the way Americans had in OTL called America Columbia? If so, it would certainly be hilarious if New Caledonia’s National personification was some grizzly lumberjack named Rupert.
And btw, I freaking love the name Rodagrad.
Isn’t Canada supposed to have a significant number of Gaelic speakers as well? I don’t remember exactly where it was said, but I do remember something about Gaelic being the largest mother tongue in British North America by 1900. I would assume that would require a large number of speakers in both Canada and Acadia.
Also, is Newfoundland majority Gaelic-speaking like Acadia?
How exactly has the issue of Polygamy been address in both Deseret and Espejo? I would assume that neither California nor Britain’s elite would be tolerant enough of the practice to turn a blind eye to it. Or has reform within both branches of the church made it a non-issue?
Admittedly, I’m a bit confused (and I’m really sorry to be nitpicky), but how “independent” is New Caledonia from Great Britain? The first paragraph’s reference to the area as the Hudson Bay Company seems to imply that New Caledonia is still under the HBC’s complete control, but of course, self-government is also implied in the above. Considering that independence would have had to happen after 1890, it’s also surprising that the textbook didn’t call New Caledonia “Britain’s newest dominion” or at least reference its recent independence. Regardless, what is the dominion’s capital?
I also find it interesting that the name New Caledonia was chosen over Rupertsland. Admittedly, New Caledonia is a much prettier/poetic name than Rupertsland, but Rupertsland seems to be the more naturally choice.
Still, do locals call New Caledonia Rupertsland the way Americans had in OTL called America Columbia? If so, it would certainly be hilarious if New Caledonia’s National personification was some grizzly lumberjack named Rupert.
Interesting! Exactly what is the Russian population in Alyeska/Sitka provinces by 1900? Has New Caledonia received any Russian immigrants?
And btw, I freaking love the name Rodagrad.
To be fair (even though it hasn’t been directly addressed yet), it seems TTL’s butterflies has led to reform in Russia. After all, Russia was able to afford their version of Steward’s folly. If anything, it seems U&L’s Russia is heading down a path similar to OTL America – a sleeping giant embracing a policy of isolationism.
Something I’ve noticed is that (so far) no one born post OTL ACW has appeared yet. While OTL figures are certainly more relatable than OCs, I do think there’s a point where you can’t plausibly use them anymore, and I certainly hope that we won’t see anyone born post-1865 OTL.
Love the map. Wish I could get one for my TL's North America. Keep up the great work. Cheers!
Winston Smith
Banned
I just love the map! Gotta love the weird shape of the United States of America, along with the Mesoamerican Union. One thing I've learned at University is that nationalism is often formed in response to that of other countries: will a ''new'' Pan-Mexican identity be formed in opposition to American imperialist adventures?
One interesting thing to see ITTL might be a socialist revolution in Germany, not Russia? Did Bismarck play the historic role he did in the unification of Germany, including building several flaws into the German system?
One interesting thing to see ITTL might be a socialist revolution in Germany, not Russia? Did Bismarck play the historic role he did in the unification of Germany, including building several flaws into the German system?
Hey Venusian Si, great to see you're back!
The name usage when referring to it is about 50/50 between New Caledonia and Rupertsland now. I do like the idea of a grizzly lumberjack named Rupert being the country's personification. Maybe with some Paul Bunyan-ness to him.
And your description of Russia is right on the money. Slowly (very slowly) reforming, but economically successful and isolationist (for now).
I did indeed say that Gaelic is the most widely spoken language in BNA. However, it's mostly in Acadia, New Caledonia, and the western parts of Canada. The Saint Lawrence valley has a minority of Gaelic speakers, but it's still mostly English and French. Speaking Gaelic has become an issue of contention in Canadian politics recently though. Newfoundland also has a majority Gaelic speaking population at this point as well.
I need to do a bit more research on this before I can make a definitive decision, but California is definitely being a lot less tolerant of Mormon polygamy that the British (and now Deseretians are). Polygamy may have a slight chance of staying legal in Deseret now that they are self-governing. I don't think it will in Espejo.
The freedom the New Caledonia government has is a bit confusing. It is true that it is now a dominion, but the HBC effectively controls the government (now as much or more than the BEIC ever did in India). I guess I probably should have said that New Caledonia became a dominion. Also, the capital is currently in York Factory.Admittedly, I’m a bit confused (and I’m really sorry to be nitpicky), but how “independent” is New Caledonia from Great Britain? The first paragraph’s reference to the area as the Hudson Bay Company seems to imply that New Caledonia is still under the HBC’s complete control, but of course, self-government is also implied in the above. Considering that independence would have had to happen after 1890, it’s also surprising that the textbook didn’t call New Caledonia “Britain’s newest dominion” or at least reference its recent independence. Regardless, what is the dominion’s capital?
I also find it interesting that the name New Caledonia was chosen over Rupertsland. Admittedly, New Caledonia is a much prettier/poetic name than Rupertsland, but Rupertsland seems to be the more naturally choice.
Still, do locals call New Caledonia Rupertsland the way Americans had in OTL called America Columbia? If so, it would certainly be hilarious if New Caledonia’s National personification was some grizzly lumberjack named Rupert.
The name usage when referring to it is about 50/50 between New Caledonia and Rupertsland now. I do like the idea of a grizzly lumberjack named Rupert being the country's personification.
Maybe with some Paul Bunyan-ness to him. I would say that the non-native population of Alyeska is approaching about half the total now, and most of them are Russian. Cities are springing up on the southern coast of Alyeska and along the Yukon River. But the Russians probably aren't moving into New Caledonia, since there's plenty of gold for now in Alyeska.Interesting! Exactly what is the Russian population in Alyeska/Sitka provinces by 1900? Has New Caledonia received any Russian immigrants?
And btw, I freaking love the name Rodagrad.
To be fair (even though it hasn’t been directly addressed yet), it seems TTL’s butterflies has led to reform in Russia. After all, Russia was able to afford their version of Steward’s folly. If anything, it seems U&L’s Russia is heading down a path similar to OTL America – a sleeping giant embracing a policy of isolationism.
And your description of Russia is right on the money. Slowly (very slowly) reforming, but economically successful and isolationist (for now).
Well, presidents and VPs will definitely continue to be real people since that was one of the things I wanted to do since the beginning of the timeline. There will probably be less real people from now on in other respects, but I will usually include a RL person if they fit the role I need enough.
Constantinople
Banned
So California is in no way federal? That would be pretty interesting. Seeing more demographic data would be cool too. I mean I cannot imagine that if they allow so many Asians, that there wouldn't be a huge number of American anglo there too. Plus other Europeans. It would just generally be cool to see an independent California become a total shitfuck of ethnicities. Just pile as many in there as you can! (And not get annexed, and be a funky weird highly successful place)
Also, I have to ask, how developed is Monterey becoming? It's a mid sized town of not much importance these days (relative to LA or SF).
Also: Deseret is a British dominion with Victoria as queen? Awesome.
Also, I have to ask, how developed is Monterey becoming? It's a mid sized town of not much importance these days (relative to LA or SF).
Also: Deseret is a British dominion with Victoria as queen? Awesome.
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They're mostly Irish and English now coming from Canada. I'm going to have to figure out what an Irish plains culture would be like.Nice map, Wilcoxchar!
I wonder about the future culture of New Caledonia, considering their demographic and economic center will be in the Plains close to the American counterpart. It will be interesting to see the background of the immigrants who settle there.
Sorry I didn't answer your questions last night. I was pretty tired, so I was only able to get through his then.
If the US does continue its intervention in the Mexican states, then a pan-Mexican identity will probably form, but the local identities will stay to some degree. I think I'm going to aim toward Mexico having vague similarities with the OTL Balkans.
I haven't looked into the German system very much, but there are certainly some differences between OTL Germany and TTL Germany. Not sure whether they would be more or less conducive to a socialist revolution, but I do have some revolutions planned already.
California is certainly getting a lot of ethnicities, but the Californio majority is trying to keep the non-Ibero ones as segregated as possible. This is pretty easy with the Mormons and Asians, but the other Anglos and other immigrants it's getting more difficult.
Monterey is pretty big, but it's mostly important as a center of government now. Probably third in population behind San Francisco and San Diego.
I think I'm going to aim toward Mexico having vague similarities with the OTL Balkans.
With America playing the part of Russia?
If the US does continue its intervention in the Mexican states, then a pan-Mexican identity will probably form, but the local identities will stay to some degree. I think I'm going to aim toward Mexico having vague similarities with the OTL Balkans.
Will we see a Mexican equivalent of a Yugoslavia? Only doomed to fail later in the TL.
Regardless, I can see Durango, Zacatecas, and Granidalgo reuniting into a Federation of the Sierra Madre (something of the kind). Durango and Granidalgo seem to have good relations with each other and I can't see why Zacatecas wouldn't since the clear rival is Rio Grande.
Plus zacatecas was already described as being The Union of Queretaro, San Luis, and Zacatecas. If that concept is working, could easily be expanded.
EDIT: if you are going for parallels I think this could work.
Jalisco = Greece, it does have a separate identity from the rest of them. Will interfere on some affairs particularly that Macedonia (Aguascalientes) issue.
Rio Bravo = Bulgaria, part of the neighborhood but was not a friend of the neighbors. They might offer him to join the federation (Yugoslavia) but he won't accept, and the others don't quite like him anyway.
Zacatecas = Serbia, sees itself as the leader. But if things ever go wrong everyone will blame them. Plus she is reluctant to give up Queretaro.
Queretaro = Kosovo. Fought over region due to its importance as the cradle of Mexican independence. And it is being fought over by:
Mexican Rep= Albania, self explanatory with the above. And will never join the union though it will likely become a puppet if there is such a federation. An odd twist. And it would be stuck between the said federation and Mesoamerica.
Granidalgo= Montenegro. Friendly with Zacatecas, probably already has an economic alliance with it as Zacatecas needs its ports won't be long before they both are fully united politically.
Durango = Croatia & Bosnia Herzegovina. They might reluctantly buy this idea of a federation. But they might act on the idea that they be/were better off by themselves.
Mesoamerica= Italy. It carefully watches what's going on on it's borders. And has a particular interest in Mexico.
Chihuahua = Slovenia. Similar idea to Durango but smaller and probably has an easier time getting economic benefits from the US afterwards.
The odd guys here are Puebla and Veracruz. Just keep them odd.
This is what I don't get.
Even if Cali is an Ibero majority country, this can't be by much. Besides the country was basically founded by an Anglo expedition during the Mexican-American war. And certainly California plays down the importance of this expedition, and probably considers its independence to fall later after a rebellion against the American occupiers (the type of event an American history text book would miss).
But nevertheless California has had a healthy anglo influence and a population of anglos that probably by now consider themselves as Californio as any Ibero. Anglo-Californios from the northern provinces and the San Francisco Bay are likely an important part of California's economy, culture, and in the case of a few influential members of these communities, politics.
In fact in order to differentiate themselves from other non Californio anglos, it is probably the anglo-Californio's who are especially in favor of segregating and containing the Mormons in Espejo.
As far as the Asian communities go, their situation can't be much worse than it was in OTL's USA. It should be better, since California likely has a more catholic/hispanic view on ethnicities (so everything always is more a matter of class than race), they came in larger numbers in TTL, and California's population is (while larger than OTL's as a whole) likely less dense due to land availability), and California likely has good relationships with a few Asian countries (we know at least it does with Japan).
Asian's might be segregated from mainstream society in California but I'd be willing to bet some of their "ghettos" are rather affluent.
Or maybe not.
BTW Awesome map Wilcox. Cant wait for the South American update (or a Europe one if you are also doing one).
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Had two tests this week so the South America update is taking a little longer than usual. Should be done with it sometime tomorrow.
About Corpus Christi, we'll see. Depends on the US involvement in Rio Bravo in the future.
Yep.
I don't know if there will be exact parallels between countries, but for the moment I am planning on a few Mexican Wars in the first decades of the 20th century, probably supported by the Americans and British. I haven't made plans for the region beyond that yet, but the US would probably support consolidation of Mexico under one country again to make it easier to keep control over the governments.
Most Anglos are still concentrated in northern California, and the strongest support for rejecting more Anglo influence is from Californios in the south. There is still a fear though that the US does want to intervene and take Californio land and would use the Anglo population as a pretext (much like Mexican wariness of American intervention after the Mexican-American War).
Well, a major hurricane hasn't hit Galveston yet, so they're probably not thinking about that much now. Especially with all the oil boom. Though Galveston might be getting too big for the island it's on, so the city has probably started making steps for incorporating Texas City or other nearby mainland cities.
About Corpus Christi, we'll see. Depends on the US involvement in Rio Bravo in the future.
The British have made some claims after the discovery of the diamond mines, but so far no war has come of it. With the unification of the Boer states into one country in 1872, London is having to think more about whether to launch an invasion. Cape Town, however, has been itching to expand the colony eastward instead of just north into the Kalahari.
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