More than likely the latter, as unless the temperature is brutally cold the glass on the shelter will see some melt-off from just the sun. I'd also suspect you'd have a little bit of slope to the glass panes to allow precipitation (rain or snow) to run off to a degree.
Unbuilt Canada
- Thread starter Bureaucromancer
- Start date
"You see, the layer of snow that forms on the roof will act as insulation, meaning we won't even need to splurge on double-paned glass for those bits."
Very much this; done properly this isn't particularly special in any kind of engineering terms.
Done on the cheap as a sidewalk roof by a BIA.... then I can see problems happening.
Honestly, with the way downtown Kitchener and its malls went, this thing might actually have wound up pretty horrific. Or, honestly, I wouldn't be totally shocked if the full enclosure version would have been enough to capture market back from the big suburban malls. At the cost of King street becoming just another mall.
With apologies for a double post, I'm going to toss a new project out there that I really long for, particularly in terms of what might have been if it had been the pilot project instead of the SRT:
While it would have missed Mohawk College (and badly needed provision for a station at the TH&B station) there was a lot that made a wonderful sense about the Hamilton ICTS project, and it really would have showcased the best parts of ICTS. It also gives me that undefinable 'feeling' of a project that almost happened, in a way that GO-ALRT, for all that it technically even started construction, doesn't.
I've also gotta say that I absolutely love these orthogonals Metro Canada did.
One as a bonus I remembered I had, the first version I've come across of a Skybridge independent from the Patullo would have been a combined high level rapid transit / low level new rail crossing:
Less impressive than Skybridge, but that's some meaningful functionality added, and while I'm not a fan of the possibility of a road deck, that excess structural capacity could well be used for a second rapid transit crossing as well...
I also stumbled across a much clearer plan for the Georgian Bay Canal in my files, which is way too big for direct posting:
While it would have missed Mohawk College (and badly needed provision for a station at the TH&B station) there was a lot that made a wonderful sense about the Hamilton ICTS project, and it really would have showcased the best parts of ICTS. It also gives me that undefinable 'feeling' of a project that almost happened, in a way that GO-ALRT, for all that it technically even started construction, doesn't.
I've also gotta say that I absolutely love these orthogonals Metro Canada did.
One as a bonus I remembered I had, the first version I've come across of a Skybridge independent from the Patullo would have been a combined high level rapid transit / low level new rail crossing:
Less impressive than Skybridge, but that's some meaningful functionality added, and while I'm not a fan of the possibility of a road deck, that excess structural capacity could well be used for a second rapid transit crossing as well...
I also stumbled across a much clearer plan for the Georgian Bay Canal in my files, which is way too big for direct posting:
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I always wondered what would have been had Hamilton actually built the ICTS demonstrator instead of it being the Scarborough RT, then expanded it as needed to suit. Hamilton's transit system has been heavily stymied by the escarpment and the need to go up and down off of it - I can see connections between LRT lines and the Hamilton RT system being quite effective and making for a very good transit system for residents up on the escarpment to come down off of it quickly and easily.
Hamilton with some options. Sigh. I still can’t believe how badly it was bungled. We could have been leading the world on automated medium rail.
If the Hamilton RT had indeed been built, would it have ended up a stepchild like the Scarborough RT or would it have been more like the Skytrain, expanded several times? Hamilton desperately needs transit considering its geography, If they built any of those alignments and then expanded it west to McMaster and east to Eastgate you'd have a fine basis for a proper transit system for Hamilton, and I (and if I'm wrong on this feel free to correct me on it) believe land prices are much lower in Hamilton so it would be considerably cheaper to built it than in Toronto.
Ming777
Monthly Donor
Hmmm....You know, imagine if a Hamilton RT got extended through St. Catherines all the way to Niagara Falls. Now before people say that it is way too long, it is roughly 50-60 km distance. The Kelena Jaya Line itself is 46.4 km, while Skytrain's Expo and Millenium lines combined are over 60 km, not including the new extension from King George station to Langley, the Millennium line extension nor the Canada Line.
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This actually does hit on my thought on the RT… that
I think the real takeaway is that the biggest mistake of ICTS was making it completely incompatible with ALRT (although with that said, I think as time goes on the more I think ALRT probably wouldn’t have been as good in the long run as well implemented electrified mainline GO).
That if it was built I think there’s a very real chance that a lower city east/west line would be seen as very closely related to ALRT. There’s honestly an interesting parallel between to the Sheppard subway’s relationship to ALRT.
I think the real takeaway is that the biggest mistake of ICTS was making it completely incompatible with ALRT (although with that said, I think as time goes on the more I think ALRT probably wouldn’t have been as good in the long run as well implemented electrified mainline GO).
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My sense is that a RT in Hamilton based on Toronto Line 3 tech would do better. In Toronto, Line 3 came to be taken as a symbol of the marginalization of Scarborough. In Hamilton, the RT would be a centrepiece of the city's infrastructure. It would look better.
Proposed Quayside to Queensborough (Q2Q) Bridge
https://www.newwestcity.ca/database/files/library/Q2Q_FAQ_Sheet(5).pdf
https://www.newwestcity.ca/database/files/library/Q2Q_FAQ_Sheet(5).pdf
I can see how that would indeed work, but knowing that CNR owns the best route for such a setup I'd be inclined to just do a GO Hamilton division. The freight traffic is light enough on the TH&B that you could use Hamilton station as an end point for Lakeshore West service and then have a GO Hamilton run along the shoreline to serve the city as well as Grimsby, St. Catharines and Niagara Falls.
But a Hamilton RT would probably work best having the two lines, one going down the escarpment and looping around downtown before going back up it and one straight across the city on a East-West axis, from McMaster University or Dundas to Eastgate or Stoney Creek depending on the budget. Going with the fully automatic trains would allow more frequent service, which would help immensely with making the system work. Ideally, long term you'd stretch it through Hamilton's upper suburbs to the airport there.
I don't disagree with you on this, but I think a lot of that would have been avoided had Line 3's plan to be extended to Malvern Town Center been built. It would have made perfect sense to stretch it to the Toronto Zoo (and perhaps into Pickering) from there, likewise what was the yard and maintenance depot for it instead become the junction point for the line along Ellsemere to the U of T Scarborough campus at Morningside. As it was the RT was a proof of concept idea, built the way it was instead of an LRT line because the province wanted to show off the tech to export customers. The Hamilton system, as you say, would have done that job better, and I cannot imagine having the system work well in both Hamilton and the extended Toronto system wouldn't have had an impact. I would say had that worked Ottawa's O-Line would have likely been built in a similar manner, and you have a good case for the Mississauga Hurontario line being an RT as well.
I definitely agree.
With my partner, back in May I did a Jane's Walk that toured the line. The guide did make the point that, if only Line 3 had gotten more investment and more development, it would have been more viable. In terms of capacity, it does seem like it fits Scarborough's neighbourhoods better than buses or subway extensions. I also like the design of the stations.
The fact that the system's design has proven so good in Vancouver and has been adapted for customers abroad by Bombardier says a lot. I see it as being a real possibility for a lot of medium-sized cities whose transit demand is too high for buses or surface streetcars but not high enough to justify a subway line. LRT does this job well also, but with a completely grade-separated line and wider station spacing you can make trains that cover much more distance in the same period of time. It wouldn't be a replacement for LRTs, but for places like Hamilton and Ottawa and Mississauga and Scarborough its a good setup that could have and should have seen far more use.
SkyTrain Best Train
Prime Minister Joe Clark owed a marker. One of those political favours that you really should redeem.
Day 1. Premier Bill Davis is deeply torn between locations but in the end picks the Hamilton escarpment. Framed by the red sunset he cheerfully lays out that only the SkyTrain could handle this with advanced, a paused smile, automated systems. He also announces that the federal government will be paying for an airport link and McMaster is part of phase II.
Day 2. Bill Davis shows up at the Toronto Zoo to say for economic reasons the SRT will have to be automated but the federal government will be paying for a line all the way to the Zoo. For the children. The Toronto Transit Commission declines to comment. Steve Munro tells the Toronto Star that they should be doing streetcars on right-of-ways.
Day 3. Bill Davis is flanked by the heavy hitters of Toronto politics, the setting sun warming the airplanes landing to pale orange. To achieve economies of scale Phase II will include both McMaster in Hamilton and the Toronto Airport Link. With federal and provincial money committed we have a solid plan to scale up across the next decade to accomplish the announced network.
Day 4. Premier Bill Davis shakes hand with Premier Bill Bennett. Another marker redeemed. Vancouver will be adopting the SkyTrain. The wavering yellow sun looms over the horizon of a city riven by bridges.
Hamilton
Mountain Line, 1985
Airport Link, 1988
University Line, 1992 (downtown-McMaster)
Built by the province and feds 45/45/10 Hamilton (as per OTL), cost overruns paid by the Province—final cost $130 million then dollars, $20 million over final proposed budget (OTL $111 million). Mountain uses the OTL Route W option with downtown curves less tight—which is like most of the overruns.
Vancouver
—Expo Line, 1986
-Canada Line 1988 (OTL except Arbutus over Cambie, way earlier fed cash)
-Caribou Corridor 1989 (cancels the OTL Millennium Line)
-PNE Extension, 1991 (never happened—province also crank refurbishment with escalators and security cameras and lights and what not—this particular extension also moves a bunch of buses onto other routes as there’s massive demand but only to Boundary road)
-Columbia + Scott Rd / SkyBridge 1993 (later than OTL because of well all the above)
-Surrey Extension, 1995 (rather later than OTL)
-Evergreen Extension 1996
-Millennium Line (Brentwood to UBC ITTL) 2000
Detroit
Loop Line, 1986 (clockwise though, lmao)
New Center Extension, 1989
Ottawa
Confederation Line, 1990 (shrug they considered the tech but no idea what they’d build; the cheaper tunnels are a huge advantage)
Toronto
-SRT to Toronto Zoo, automated, roughly on time and budget with the Feds picking up a few extra million.
-Airport RT, 1987 (airport-Kipling)
-Waterfront RT, 1990 (Kipling to Union)
-Sheppard RT, 1992
-Relief RT, 1995 (Union to Donlands)
Prime Minister Joe Clark owed a marker. One of those political favours that you really should redeem.
Day 1. Premier Bill Davis is deeply torn between locations but in the end picks the Hamilton escarpment. Framed by the red sunset he cheerfully lays out that only the SkyTrain could handle this with advanced, a paused smile, automated systems. He also announces that the federal government will be paying for an airport link and McMaster is part of phase II.
Day 2. Bill Davis shows up at the Toronto Zoo to say for economic reasons the SRT will have to be automated but the federal government will be paying for a line all the way to the Zoo. For the children. The Toronto Transit Commission declines to comment. Steve Munro tells the Toronto Star that they should be doing streetcars on right-of-ways.
Day 3. Bill Davis is flanked by the heavy hitters of Toronto politics, the setting sun warming the airplanes landing to pale orange. To achieve economies of scale Phase II will include both McMaster in Hamilton and the Toronto Airport Link. With federal and provincial money committed we have a solid plan to scale up across the next decade to accomplish the announced network.
Day 4. Premier Bill Davis shakes hand with Premier Bill Bennett. Another marker redeemed. Vancouver will be adopting the SkyTrain. The wavering yellow sun looms over the horizon of a city riven by bridges.
Hamilton
Mountain Line, 1985
Airport Link, 1988
University Line, 1992 (downtown-McMaster)
Built by the province and feds 45/45/10 Hamilton (as per OTL), cost overruns paid by the Province—final cost $130 million then dollars, $20 million over final proposed budget (OTL $111 million). Mountain uses the OTL Route W option with downtown curves less tight—which is like most of the overruns.
Vancouver
—Expo Line, 1986
-Canada Line 1988 (OTL except Arbutus over Cambie, way earlier fed cash)
-Caribou Corridor 1989 (cancels the OTL Millennium Line)
-PNE Extension, 1991 (never happened—province also crank refurbishment with escalators and security cameras and lights and what not—this particular extension also moves a bunch of buses onto other routes as there’s massive demand but only to Boundary road)
-Columbia + Scott Rd / SkyBridge 1993 (later than OTL because of well all the above)
-Surrey Extension, 1995 (rather later than OTL)
-Evergreen Extension 1996
-Millennium Line (Brentwood to UBC ITTL) 2000
Detroit
Loop Line, 1986 (clockwise though, lmao)
New Center Extension, 1989
Ottawa
Confederation Line, 1990 (shrug they considered the tech but no idea what they’d build; the cheaper tunnels are a huge advantage)
Toronto
-SRT to Toronto Zoo, automated, roughly on time and budget with the Feds picking up a few extra million.
-Airport RT, 1987 (airport-Kipling)
-Waterfront RT, 1990 (Kipling to Union)
-Sheppard RT, 1992
-Relief RT, 1995 (Union to Donlands)
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^ Not sure what Kipling-Union route they could do there. If it's me going that route I'm selling it as part of Network 2011, which was the TTC's overall plan of the time, and the airport LRT would be going from Pearson Airport to Eglinton West Station (they planned this IOTL), staying above ground until past Jane Street (this corridor was meant for the Richview Expressway which was never built, so there's lots of room and a certain poignancy here) and then going underground there, with the train depot at the OTL Eglinton LRT location at Mount Dennis. Later on, the route gets extended along Eglinton, ultimately all the way to Kennedy Station in Scarborough. The airport route would instead be the U of T Scarborough route.
Using as the downtown relief line (also planned as part of Network 2011) is a wise idea, but the Union to Donlands would be the first section. The second one goes through East York north from Donlands, crosses to Thorncliffe Park and then swings east to Flemingdon Park and meets the Eglinton Line at the Ontario Science Center. Later on, the Union line runs through the CityPlace neighborhood and past Fort York to Ontario Place and the Exhibition grounds. Sheppard is a good idea, though. Getting Mulroney on board with this would be wise, too.
Using as the downtown relief line (also planned as part of Network 2011) is a wise idea, but the Union to Donlands would be the first section. The second one goes through East York north from Donlands, crosses to Thorncliffe Park and then swings east to Flemingdon Park and meets the Eglinton Line at the Ontario Science Center. Later on, the Union line runs through the CityPlace neighborhood and past Fort York to Ontario Place and the Exhibition grounds. Sheppard is a good idea, though. Getting Mulroney on board with this would be wise, too.
I was about to say that I've really got to write a triumphalist ICTS timeline sometime. Some thoughts though:
or by service pattern:
On second thought I'm actually tempted to think that the western ends should flip, with Expo running to UBC and Evergreen/Hastings going south, Expo getting the West End bypass... Which is precisely why my version of the TL leaves off with the actual end state an open question.
I will add though that the real basic fact of the Expo line having been built when and how it was is really one of the few instances of the implausibility of our timeline working out shockingly well. All else being equal it's EXACTLY the kind of project I'd look at as a proposal and think 'of course it should be built, and of course it wont be'.
- Does Vancouver still reuse the Dunsmuir Tunnel? It made a lot of sense, but so did the early vision of Expo through running onto Cambie by way of a new tunnel.
- Any chance in this timeline to beef up the trains a little? As much as I find Mk Is charming the TV06 really would have been a more marketable product...
- As for Toronto, thoughts on either the CNE demonstrator loop or using the Zoo similarly (akin to the Terminal Ave section in Vancouver)?
- The LA Peoplemover really has more to do with Federal funding than anything the vendor did, but it's another fairly small project that could have been a better bridgehead into the US than (unextended) Detroit
- It's a bit of a stretch in timing terms, but something that's always come to mind for me is that Buffalo could have made very good use of ICTS, and the mode could have been switched well after construction started
- I think my take on Vancouver would be a little different:
- Exo 1986
- with funds available to do Canada line that quickly Dunsmuir gets dropped in favour of through running on a route more like what got proposed in the early LRT reports
- I don't remember if the document I pulled this from used Granville or Arbutus, but I think in this era they'd have been very tempted to go elevated on Arbutus to try and emulate the use of the Central Park Line corridor
- initial line is to Granville Station (marked at Golden Triangle above) via Waterfront
- with funds available to do Canada line that quickly Dunsmuir gets dropped in favour of through running on a route more like what got proposed in the early LRT reports
- Richmond and Airport lines 1989 - I expect delays largely related to tunnelling once it becomes clear opening for Expo is a non-starter and all efforts go to getting the Expo line up
- Scott Road 1990 - a bridge is a big sexy project that was always on the table, so as much as I see Lougheed happening early, flipping the order seems like a given
- Lougheed branch 1991 - quick sequence here, Lougheed is the second project, but these are basically parrallel and the lower priority branch is also easier technically
- PNE via Hastings 1995 - bigger project than any of the eastern extensions, so a little later, but I do agree with the placement in the timeline here; terminates at Waterfront platforms parallel to Expo line
- Hastings / PNE line butterflies West Coast Express, an optimist might start a Scott Road - Abbotsford DMU at this point instead
- Surrey extension 1997
- Millennium Line is extension of Hastings line to Brentwood, through running into downtown tunnel and branching from Canada Line to UBC, 2000 (Brentwood), 2002 (UBC and through running)
- Coquitlam extension of Lougheed branch ~2007
- Whistler Rail Link is Olympic Project, 2011
- Evergreen line is closely tied to the Port Mann Bridge replacement, stage 1 becomes Brentwood - Lougheed - Guildwood extension in 2012; think REM like emphasis on speed for this line, although it will (partially) through route onto Cambie
- Stage 2 Guildwood - Langley 2015
- Stage 3 is Broadway extension, Brentwood - Arbutus with through running to UBC (partial relief for Downtown tunnel) in 2019
- SFU Gondola on Lougheed Centre route 2023
- as of 2023:
- Metrotown - Park Royal line under early construction
- Golden Ears Evergreen branch to Pitt Meadows and Maple Riddge is committed
- Guildwood - White Rock corridor is tied up in arguments about technology and service pattern, indepenent short platform Skytrain line on Guildwood - Surrey - King George - White Rock route is broadly favoured but not yet committed, BRT has significant political support, LRT is mostly dismissed but nominally studied and there is a Rail for the Valley like argument being made for mainline rail with eBART influence
- Lions Gate closure to private vehicles is actually intended for 2030, planning is seriously advancing for a Waterfront - Park Royal - Horseshoe Bay BRT
- Everyone is well aware a second downtown tunnel will be needed sooner or later, but getting movement on actually planning has been sluggish; preference appears to be Waterfront - West End - Kitsilano - Arbutus, but this has only been talked of in very general terms officially and the fandom is very much split on the appropriate service pattern (for my part I'd keep it simple and seperate Millenium from Canada with cross platofrm transfers at Waterfront and Broadway / Arbutus, with seriousl consideration of truncating the Broadway line to an Arbutus - Brentwood shuttle)
- Exo 1986
or by service pattern:
On second thought I'm actually tempted to think that the western ends should flip, with Expo running to UBC and Evergreen/Hastings going south, Expo getting the West End bypass... Which is precisely why my version of the TL leaves off with the actual end state an open question.
I will add though that the real basic fact of the Expo line having been built when and how it was is really one of the few instances of the implausibility of our timeline working out shockingly well. All else being equal it's EXACTLY the kind of project I'd look at as a proposal and think 'of course it should be built, and of course it wont be'.
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Generally agree with all of this, but I'd add that my concept of a Kipling - Downtown route (more or less OTL in light of talk of an Ontario Line / 407 Loop) is south from Kipling east via Queensway / Gardiner and then the obvious waterfront route. Not terrible, makes a kind of sense, especially in the design language of ICTS, but I have to agree that the weirdness here is Eglinton dropping off the radar.
I'd imagine Toronto in an ICTS positive timeline (without ALRT) doing Scarborough and Etobicoke, then looking to close the gap, going with the Finch ROW loop followed by DRL if they can get access to the Hydro ROW and doing a DRL then Eglinton if Hydro is difficult about it.
While I'm posting maps I've created whole cloth, my broad concept of what KW might look like with surviving trolleybuses, some form of King St enclosure and a 1990s ICTS based rapid transit line:
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