Ultrachallenge II, Maya wank

OK, it's sort of a challenge, but I'd really like this to sort of be a collaborative timeline, what do you guys think?
Make the Mayas a successful world power until at least the 20th century, the farther into the 20th century, the more bonus points.
 

Keenir

Banned
OK, it's sort of a challenge, but I'd really like this to sort of be a collaborative timeline, what do you guys think?
Make the Mayas a successful world power until at least the 20th century, the farther into the 20th century, the more bonus points.

do something with the Christian Mayan pirates of the 1500s (and 1600s?).....maybe they found a nation.
 
How about some Scientific Revolution in agriculture. Fertilization, and improved Irrigation, coupled with more aggressive Animal Domestication.

I've alway been under the impression that a substantial portion of the Mayan Collapse was caused by the slash and burn Agriculture that they practiced. Eventually they would be forced to move thier cities as arable farmland would be exhausted, thereby causing a lack of continuity over long periods of time.

IMO, this would be huge for the Maya, if they could diversify thier crops, and learn to keep the land they'd already developed useful. This would also make them less susceptible to blights.
 
How about some Scientific Revolution in agriculture. Fertilization, and improved Irrigation, coupled with more aggressive Animal Domestication.

I've alway been under the impression that a substantial portion of the Mayan Collapse was caused by the slash and burn Agriculture that they practiced. Eventually they would be forced to move thier cities as arable farmland would be exhausted, thereby causing a lack of continuity over long periods of time.

IMO, this would be huge for the Maya, if they could diversify thier crops, and learn to keep the land they'd already developed useful. This would also make them less susceptible to blights.

All that would need to happen is for them to learn "slash and char" from the Amazonian tribes.
Animal domestication won't help... they basically have nothing left to domesticate. Importing llamas would be useful though.
After that, a scientific revolution is not any more farfetched than an IR in all the "WI Roman Industrial Revolution" threads.
 
For domestication you need the right animals... which they hadn't before the Europeans.

However, it's interesting to read that it took the Spaniards over 100 years until the last independent Maya city was conquered. (Other than the Aztecs or Incas, they weren't a centralized empire, where you just have to take the capital, and have won.)
 
So, after finding slash and char, we have agriculture, and by importing llamas from South America, we have a help to the work force, but the Mayans are still divided, and confined to the Yucatan. What kind of ruler do we need to unite the Mayans? A conqueror, a peacemaker, what?
 
So, after finding slash and char, we have agriculture, and by importing llamas from South America, we have a help to the work force, but the Mayans are still divided, and confined to the Yucatan. What kind of ruler do we need to unite the Mayans? A conqueror, a peacemaker, what?
Would you really want a centralized government this early on? Competition breeds innovation. A collection city-states competing against each other would surely be more likely to come up with new techniques, inventions, and ideas than a unified central government which would ensure more stability and a stronger sense of status quo.
 
Before an extreme drought hit them, they had large cities, communal infrastructure projects (mainly water storage and tempels), lots of knowledge, and so on.

In a report I once saw on tv, natural weather patterns, completely independent of local agricultural methods, were made responsible for the drought. Apparently, every few hundred years, freak weather patterns can cause the tropical Yucatan peninsula to hardly get any rain for several years.

To avoid a PoD which includes climate changes, the Mayas would need to be sufficiently developed to be able to solve their water problems, or there would need to be something which enables them to recover quickly after such a drough.

As it was, the drought apparently caused a civil war, which destroyed the Maya civilisation even more than the lack of water. When the Europeans arrived, the Mayas still hadn't recovered, and the few remains were decimated again by old world diseases.

The simplest change might be a society more able to adapt to hardships. As it was, a class society where people showed their position by "improving" their looks (dental changes, among others) delivered perfect targets for mobs and war lords. Thus, the elite was killed and with it lots of knowledge and organisation. Both a more egalitarian and a more suppressive society might have been able to avoid those problems, which would have led to a fast recovery of the population numbers once the rain sets in again.

But for the Mayas to be able to stand up to the Spanish, they'd need earlier contact with Europe or Asia - both for disease resistance, as for technology. Maybe if their society hadn't imploded, some merchants would have discovered first all the riches available in the Americas (plants, agricultural methods, ...) and then the currents and winds enabling fast passage to Africa or Europe and back.
 
Say we keep the city states, just for competition at first. Scientific competition leads to a basic groundwater pump, then during drought times the water shortage would be cut down on.
 

Keenir

Banned
Say we keep the city states, just for competition at first. Scientific competition leads to a basic groundwater pump, then during drought times the water shortage would be cut down on.

what water shortage? :confused:

city-states were built on cenotes -- which is a cavern filled with water.
mayan religious belief (ycts the Underworld) demanded this.

edit: pyramids, not city-states. sorry. otherwise, all true.
 
The solution to this scenarion is really simple, but really ASB and its change the orientation of the Americas. I once saw a TV special based on the book Guns, Germs and Steel which suggested that reason the Europeans were able to defeat the Native Tribes of the Americas because of the way the Americas are positioned on the globe, which is north to south. The differences in climate made it difficult for tribes from one area to adapt to another area and meant that it was more difficult to transplant food plants from one area to another.
 
Politics happen to all cultures. Irregardless of the cause, I propose that the Mayans were doomed by thier agricultural practices more than anything else. Slash and "Burn" (LOL) tactics, meant that they not only acted like locusts on the lands that they lived on, they also destroyed the back up food sources that they might have fell back on.

Irrigation and diversity of crops is the deal breaker IMO. This is the one thing that would give the Mayans the consistency that they need to evolve into a truly powerful state. they had government, they had science, they had religion, what they needed was a stable situation to develop the native culture. I will grant that this is extremely dependent on politics in the region, and a bit more time to get to an empire type state.

I'd brag on the Inca more, but they used knots to control trade, if I remember correctly. Granted they had a complex culture, but they lacked a written language, and the means to trade in a complex manner. It would be nice if there was a bit more exchange of Idea's between the two. Nuff said:l
 
Mayans have heiroglyphics, it just needs a little time to degrade into letters, then they will have a written language. As for government, there won't be any one single emperor for right now, but how about some sort of imperial oligarchy? There are still city-states to compete, but they are controlled by a single body.
 
Mayans have heiroglyphics, it just needs a little time to degrade into letters, then they will have a written language. As for government, there won't be any one single emperor for right now, but how about some sort of imperial oligarchy? There are still city-states to compete, but they are controlled by a single body.

There was a time in wich most of Mayan lands were ruled by the (not very accurately named) Mayapan League of Chichén Itzá, Mayapan and Uxmal. Untill the 14th century Chichén Itzá was the center of the alliance, but it suddenly fell, and Uxmal and Mayapan started to fight each other. In the late 15th century Mayapan was destroyed and the league formally dissolved.

In my opinion, a better source of food would make the early league under Chichén Itzá more stable. If this event can butterfly the fall of the city after 1300, the League would evolve into a state similar to the Aztec Empire. In fact, the Aztecs also started as a league, in this case formed by Tenochtitlan, Texcoco and Tlacopan. A single emperor is actually something foreseeable (is that the word?) in this scenario because all the Maya cities had a single "king". If Chichén Itzá rises to became a true capital of the Mayas its king would be emperor of the whole Yucatan.

However, you still have a big problem when the Spaniards arrive.
 

Keenir

Banned
Mayans have heiroglyphics, it just needs a little time to degrade into letters, then they will have a written language. As for government, there won't be any one single emperor for right now, but how about some sort of imperial oligarchy? There are still city-states to compete, but they are controlled by a single body.

they did have a written language...and why would the God-King (cult of personality, like Ancient Greece) leap to an oligarchy? *curious*

I'd brag on the Inca more, but they used knots to control trade, if I remember correctly. Granted they had a complex culture, but they lacked a written language, and the means to trade in a complex manner.

who did they have to trade with?
* the subject tribes within their empire.
* the rainforest archer-mercs hired by their empire.
* empires so far away contact was sparse at best over the course of centuries.
 

Keenir

Banned
This is the first I have heard of them! Where can I find more info?

I'm not sure offhand....it was a passing mention in Point Of Divergence APA....I think a book was mentioned.
("Warlords of the Ancient Americas"? not sure)
 

mojojojo

Gone Fishin'
I'm not sure offhand....it was a passing mention in Point Of Divergence APA....I think a book was mentioned.
("Warlords of the Ancient Americas"? not sure)

If anyone can direct me to a book please do. It sounds very interesting!
 
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