UK offer to Ireland 1940

[Ditzy Vixen (RossN)]

Aircraft of the Irish Air Corps, 1939-1945

No. 12 Westland Lysander / Dreolín ('Wren')

When Ireland declared war on Germany the most numerous aeroplanes at the Air Corps were the Gloster Gladiators - soon rechristened the Glasóg ('Wagtail') - and the Westland Lysander, renamed the Dreolín ('Wren').

Even before Ireland had joined the war the Lysanders had never really been seen as viable fighters and the Air Corps quickly took them of immediate combat duties, instead utilising the Dreolín's as short range reconnaissance aircraft and spotters to locate downed aircrew - more than Irish (and indeed German) pilot during the Battle of Ireland had reason to be grateful when a Dreolín pilot spotted his life jacket bobbing in the Celtic Sea.

Once the action moved to the North Africa front the Dreolíns followed, acting as army liaison planes for the IEF. They also performed other interesting duties taking advantage of their ability to use a very short take off and landing. However they were also slow and hideously vulnerable and by the time of the landings in Sicily they were withdrawn from active front line service.

Including pre-war types a total of twelve Dreolíns served in the Irish Air Corps.

---

OOC: Another historical Air Corps plane! I hadn't originally intended to cover them since to my mind they would have been phased out fairly quickly for more modern aircraft but it seemed a shame not to at least note them, especially since they are interesting in their own right - famously these are the ones than smuggled messages (and agents!) to and from the Resistance!

 

[Mccarthypaddy1216]

What would be Ireland’s MI5 in the spy game
Because we could see like Irish agents pretending to be IRA to route out German agents or even being sent abroad to make contact with resistance cells

 

[Catsmate]

If the Rangers were formed earlier who would be in command of the brigades I could definitely see Tom Barry been one of the commanders

I'd have placed him teaching the Home Guard and Auxiliary Units some tricks...

 

[Catsmate]

sorry for the double posting but If we’re go with the idea that Joe Kennedy is been sent to Ireland both as way to improve US-Irish relations and to get rid of him so he couldn’t run against FDR for the democrat presidential Candidate would he pushed for his son’s to join the Irish military like he did in OTL to join the US military.

And in one sentence you release a gigaflutter of new possibilities...
Nice.
Also he'd be a better Minister than Gray.

 

[michaelbaneblade]

First off great job Lads some fantastic work in expanding expanding the initial Idea. So here is the real Question it's 1945. The war is over whoohoo now what happens. The sectarian sectarian divide is still there and burning maybe slightly less hot. But alive on both sides. Promises have been made bye HMG, can they deliver a united Ireland. Or is some extra clay enough to satisfy the Irish government and more importantly the Irish voters whose sons have died in fairly substantial numbers. Would 10 thousand dead and many more badly wounded be satisfied with a third of the loaf rather than the whole of Ulster. I know no one has yet made it to 1945. And the casualties have not yet been worked out. But a couple of Irish corps fighting in Northern France against the Whermacht would be a pretty brutal affair.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

First off great job Lads some fantastic work in expanding expanding the initial Idea.

Glad you're enjoying

So here is the real Question it's 1945. The war is over whoohoo now what happens. The sectarian sectarian divide is still there and burning maybe slightly less hot. But alive on both sides. Promises have been made bye HMG, can they deliver a united Ireland. Or is some extra clay enough to satisfy the Irish government and more importantly the Irish voters whose sons have died in fairly substantial numbers. Would 10 thousand dead and many more badly wounded be satisfied with a third of the loaf rather than the whole of Ulster. I know no one has yet made it to 1945. And the casualties have not yet been worked out. But a couple of Irish corps fighting in Northern France against the Whermacht would be a pretty brutal affair.

A lot depends...

If HMG delivers on both a transfer of land that'll transfer more Catholic/Republican citizenry to the South and some form of mechanism whereby there can be actual cross-border dialogue, actual, concrete work towards rapprochement and possible reunification, and such like that, then I can see people in the South being temporarily satisfied since there's some actual progress being made, and Unionists in the North feeling more secure with a greater majority and possibly willing to engage with dialogue as long as they're not being handed away tomorrow. And, gradually, that leading towards something better down the road. But it's something that could have...issues, if people in the South see things as moving too slow and the North see things as moving too quickly.

If all the South gets is the discussed territory transfer, then they could get extremely bitter and Dev could be voted out right quickly, leaving whoever his successor is to reap the benefits of Ireland getting some Marshall Plan cash.

@Ditzy Vixen (RossN) was mentioning the idea of some kind of reunification deal in exchange for regional self-government for Ulster and a guarantee of continued Commonwealth membership for the island. That...could work, though it'd need to be carefully worked out and there'd be a lot of loud voices opposed to it both North and South.

 

[Catsmate]

First off great job Lads some fantastic work in expanding expanding the initial Idea. So here is the real Question it's 1945. The war is over whoohoo now what happens. The sectarian sectarian divide is still there and burning maybe slightly less hot. But alive on both sides. Promises have been made bye HMG, can they deliver a united Ireland. Or is some extra clay enough to satisfy the Irish government and more importantly the Irish voters whose sons have died in fairly substantial numbers. Would 10 thousand dead and many more badly wounded be satisfied with a third of the loaf rather than the whole of Ulster. I know no one has yet made it to 1945. And the casualties have not yet been worked out. But a couple of Irish corps fighting in Northern France against the Whermacht would be a pretty brutal affair.

My take is that in '45 the UKGov cannot deliver on a unified Ireland, even if they wanted to. What they, and that'd be the incoming Labour administration, can do is commit to the idea of a unified Ireland, and formally state the the UK has no long term interests in the statelet. Then begin building on the "All Ireland" structures, perhaps encourage immigration from NI at ceters.

 

[Catsmate]

Also post-WW2 does Ireland join NATO? Build on the wartime relationship with the US?

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Also post-WW2 does Ireland join NATO? Build on the wartime relationship with the US?

Probably not in 1949. However, they'll be founder-members of the UN, and will therefore absolutely be sending soldiers to Korea (heck, @Ditzy Vixen (RossN) had that canonised in the Spitfire/Seafire entry ), so I'd say it's likely Ireland would join up with NATO in maybe 1952 or so?

 

[Ditzy Vixen (RossN)]

First off great job Lads some fantastic work in expanding expanding the initial Idea. So here is the real Question it's 1945. The war is over whoohoo now what happens. The sectarian sectarian divide is still there and burning maybe slightly less hot. But alive on both sides. Promises have been made bye HMG, can they deliver a united Ireland. Or is some extra clay enough to satisfy the Irish government and more importantly the Irish voters whose sons have died in fairly substantial numbers. Would 10 thousand dead and many more badly wounded be satisfied with a third of the loaf rather than the whole of Ulster. I know no one has yet made it to 1945. And the casualties have not yet been worked out. But a couple of Irish corps fighting in Northern France against the Whermacht would be a pretty brutal affair.

That's definitely the difficult question and I think could send the post-war time line off in some very different directions. Partly why I've been very reluctant to approach it!

As I said before I think the territorial transfer during the middle of the war is going to create far more problems than it solves from the point of view of Dublin, especially if it is a solo run by the Charlemont government in Belfast. I can see why it is something that the Ulster Unionists would go for and @ShortsBelfast definitely has a better insight into their views than I do. I can also see why Northern Nationalists (at least in the transferred territories!) would welcome it too.

However from the perspective of Dublin it creates a crisis, especially since it suggests no further changes will be coming and I very much doubt Belfast will be interested in pursuing any further integration having already made their 'sacrifice' for the greater good of the Empire. This really is a scenario where I think nothing (in the short term) is better than something. As @theg*ddam*hoi2fan mentioned I think there would be a lot of post-war bitterness in Ireland if that happens and probably a tilt away from the UK - not necessarily towards isolationism but maybe towards America.

The scenario I thought up was one where constitutional issues were punted until some vague point after the war (so no territorial transfers) and the Council of Ireland gaining in power and scope - not replacing either the Belfast or Dublin governments but providing an all Ireland framework that can grow into a proper federal government over two or three decades. The problem with this of course is that it would be a slow shift and require actual concessions in the South including copper fastening membership in the Commonwealth and at least some ceremonial role for the British Crown which would no doubt have some republicans here spitting blood. It would also require a British government willing to wield both a carrot and a stick to help push the all-island bodies along, which might be tricky...

 

[Catsmate]

Probably not in 1949. However, they'll be founder-members of the UN, and will therefore absolutely be sending soldiers to Korea (heck, @Ditzy Vixen (RossN) had that canonised in the Spitfire/Seafire entry ), so I'd say it's likely Ireland would join up with NATO in maybe 1952 or so?

Well historically in '49 Ireland was quite interested in joining NATO with the two main bars being expense and the status of Norn Iron.
In this scenario the former is less of an issue (I fully suspect Ireland will be acquiring rather more than it's fair share of Marshall Aid) with an expanded military, and the second is negated by the different relationship with the UK. So overall I could see Ireland joining NATO at inception, and seeing expansion of wartime bases for control of the Atlantic.

There's also the question of the Commonwealth; if membership is considered compatible with being a republic (cough, India) then I could see Ireland remaining in the club (with some perhaps fascinating long term results).
Maybe there's a quid-pro-quo with the Territorial Claim being watered down, the matter of NI being left to sort itself out in the decades to come, and not being seen as the all-encompassing matter it was treated as historically.

Finally there's the dismal science. This Ireland will be a rather different place in '45 and change, and the pace of change, will accelerate. There will be no waiting until the late '50s and Whittaker (whom I hope has a commensurate position in this timeline; seriously, forget De Valera TKW was a far more significant figure in Irish history). That's perhaps fifteen years that aren't wasted. By 2000 the country will be very different.
Any, that's my speculations...

 

[Ditzy Vixen (RossN)]

Well historically in '49 Ireland was quite interested in joining NATO with the two main bars being expense and the status of Norn Iron.
In this scenario the former is less of an issue (I fully suspect Ireland will be acquiring rather more than it's fair share of Marshall Aid) with an expanded military, and the second is negated by the different relationship with the UK. So overall I could see Ireland joining NATO at inception, and seeing expansion of wartime bases for control of the Atlantic.

There's also the question of the Commonwealth; if membership is considered compatible with being a republic (cough, India) then I could see Ireland remaining in the club (with some perhaps fascinating long term results).
Maybe there's a quid-pro-quo with the Territorial Claim being watered down, the matter of NI being left to sort itself out in the decades to come, and not being seen as the all-encompassing matter it was treated as historically.

Finally there's the dismal science. This Ireland will be a rather different place in '45 and change, and the pace of change, will accelerate. There will be no waiting until the late '50s and Whittaker (whom I hope has a commensurate position in this timeline; seriously, forget De Valera TKW was a far more significant figure in Irish history). That's perhaps fifteen years that aren't wasted. By 2000 the country will be very different.
Any, that's my speculations...

And just like that you've already driven the Unionists away.

I know I'm probably biased by own soft spot for monarchies and cynicism for republics and should really write that Arthur Griffith/Kevin O'Higgins dominated timeline one of these days... but I do think especially in the 1940s the Crown matters to Unionists and declaring a republic and staying in the Commonwealth wouldn't really cut the mustard.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Gregory Peck as Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty in the 1983 film Agents of Man, Agent of God, a dramatisation of wartime espionage activities run from the Irish embassy in Vatican City
​

...and on the face of it, the Irish embassy in the Vatican was in a highly awkward and constrained position following the Irish declaration of war in 1940. While its position was inviolate, given that the Vatican was a sovereign state and also neutral in the war, it was also restricted to and dependent on the Vatican, unable to leave the narrow confines of the papal enclave. Indeed, there had been a number of calls initially for the embassy to be disbanded and for diplomatic staff to accept safe-conduct and repatriation.

However, it was decided to leave the embassy in position. Partly, it's true, because the De Valera government wanted to make sure it maintained regular contact with the Holy See, but also because a rare opportunity was available here. Ireland's personal ties to the Vatican and the Church were deep, as seen by the numbers of Irish clergy working within the Vatican, and the numbers of other clergy who'd been educated at the Irish College in Rome. Both of these, it was felt, might represent sources of information, sources who might feasibly have innocent reasons for coming in to the embassy. As officials of the Vatican, and therefore subject to diplomatic immunity, early on in the war many clergy from Ireland were able to move about where Irish civilians or diplomatic personnel would have been arrested - the Fascist authorities at this point were unwilling to create difficulties for themselves with the Vatican - and some would bring back snippets of information to the embassy, snippets that were then transmitted back to Ireland. Of course, as time went on the Italians would take what measures it could to try to curtail the movement of Irish clergy, and the Vatican itself - desirous of remaining neutral - would attempt to curb such activities. However, they would continue. An early activist in this case was the Cork-born Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty. Having been very active in visiting POW camps to bring news of inmates back to their families, he was well-placed to gather information, and he would quietly pass it on to the embassy, as well as taking a role in organising Irish priests and alumni of the Irish College to also do so.

His activities early in the war meant that he was well-known to the Irish embassy. As such, when - in 1943 - he began his clandestine activities to smuggle escaped POWs, Jews and other refugees out of Italy, he was able to reach out quickly to the embassy, and through them to G2, which had grown substantially from its pre-war nadir. Ireland would, therefore, provide what logistical aid it could to his operation, up to and including the surreptitious deployment of a small number of operatives - primarily drawn from the fledgling Rangers - to assist in the effort to get the refugees to safety (including - to O'Flaherty's disapproval - the quiet removal of 'problem' individuals, it was one such operative who shot the notorious Pietro Koch in early 1944). Additionally, the Irish government would move to take in a large number of the displaced civilians rescued in this initiative, as well as a wider number from Italy and Sicily in general post-war - temporarily, officially, but a number would end up staying on, helping in post-war reconstruction and finding employment thanks to Ireland's post-war economic growth, helped of course by Marshall Plan aid...
- Taken from lecture on 'Ireland in WWII', part of the Irish History since 1870 module, given at Trinity College Dublin by Professor Annette Brady on 17/03/2006

​

 

[michaelbaneblade]

So another question about Da Monies!!!! Ireland has fought and bled with the rest of the Allies. Been there from the day England stood alone Ireland stood up ete etc. With regard to the post war Marshall Aid, what could Ireland realistically expect and how much would end up in a Swiss bank account.

 

[Ditzy Vixen (RossN)]

Gregory Peck as Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty in the 1983 film Agents of Man, Agent of God, a dramatisation of wartime espionage activities run from the Irish embassy in Vatican City
​

...and on the face of it, the Irish embassy in the Vatican was in a highly awkward and constrained position following the Irish declaration of war in 1940. While its position was inviolate, given that the Vatican was a sovereign state and also neutral in the war, it was also restricted to and dependent on the Vatican, unable to leave the narrow confines of the papal enclave. Indeed, there had been a number of calls initially for the embassy to be disbanded and for diplomatic staff to accept safe-conduct and repatriation.

However, it was decided to leave the embassy in position. Partly, it's true, because the De Valera government wanted to make sure it maintained regular contact with the Holy See, but also because a rare opportunity was available here. Ireland's personal ties to the Vatican and the Church were deep, as seen by the numbers of Irish clergy working within the Vatican, and the numbers of other clergy who'd been educated at the Irish College in Rome. Both of these, it was felt, might represent sources of information, sources who might feasibly have innocent reasons for coming in to the embassy. As officials of the Vatican, and therefore subject to diplomatic immunity, early on in the war many clergy from Ireland were able to move about where Irish civilians or diplomatic personnel would have been arrested - the Fascist authorities at this point were unwilling to create difficulties for themselves with the Vatican - and some would bring back snippets of information to the embassy, snippets that were then transmitted back to Ireland. Of course, as time went on the Italians would take what measures it could to try to curtail the movement of Irish clergy, and the Vatican itself - desirous of remaining neutral - would attempt to curb such activities. However, they would continue. An early activist in this case was the Cork-born Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty. Having been very active in visiting POW camps to bring news of inmates back to their families, he was well-placed to gather information, and he would quietly pass it on to the embassy, as well as taking a role in organising Irish priests and alumni of the Irish College to also do so.

His activities early in the war meant that he was well-known to the Irish embassy. As such, when - in 1943 - he began his clandestine activities to smuggle escaped POWs, Jews and other refugees out of Italy, he was able to reach out quickly to the embassy, and through them to G2, which had grown substantially from its pre-war nadir. Ireland would, therefore, provide what logistical aid it could to his operation, up to and including the surreptitious deployment of a small number of operatives - primarily drawn from the fledgling Rangers - to assist in the effort to get the refugees to safety (including - to O'Flaherty's disapproval - the quiet removal of 'problem' individuals, it was one such operative who shot the notorious Pietro Koch in early 1944). Additionally, the Irish government would move to take in a large number of the displaced civilians rescued in this initiative, as well as a wider number from Italy and Sicily in general post-war - temporarily, officially, but a number would end up staying on, helping in post-war reconstruction and finding employment thanks to Ireland's post-war economic growth, helped of course by Marshall Plan aid...
- Taken from lecture on 'Ireland in WWII', part of the Irish History since 1870 module, given at Trinity College Dublin by Professor Annette Brady on 17/03/2006

​

Oh very cool work about what would be a fascinating side to the war!

Also another film, yay!

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Oh very cool work about what would be a fascinating side to the war!

Also another film, yay!

Thanks! The thought occurred to me, and I just went 'yeah, that needs to be explored...'

And yes

 

[Von Tyrconnell]

Well historically in '49 Ireland was quite interested in joining NATO with the two main bars being expense and the status of Norn Iron.
In this scenario the former is less of an issue (I fully suspect Ireland will be acquiring rather more than it's fair share of Marshall Aid) with an expanded military, and the second is negated by the different relationship with the UK. So overall I could see Ireland joining NATO at inception, and seeing expansion of wartime bases for control of the Atlantic.

There's also the question of the Commonwealth; if membership is considered compatible with being a republic (cough, India) then I could see Ireland remaining in the club (with some perhaps fascinating long term results).
Maybe there's a quid-pro-quo with the Territorial Claim being watered down, the matter of NI being left to sort itself out in the decades to come, and not being seen as the all-encompassing matter it was treated as historically.

Finally there's the dismal science. This Ireland will be a rather different place in '45 and change, and the pace of change, will accelerate. There will be no waiting until the late '50s and Whittaker (whom I hope has a commensurate position in this timeline; seriously, forget De Valera TKW was a far more significant figure in Irish history). That's perhaps fifteen years that aren't wasted. By 2000 the country will be very different.
Any, that's my speculations...

I find it extremely unlikely Ireland would remain in the Commonwealth (especially long-term) if the British were to break their agreements for the transfer of NI or at least some territory.

It should be remembered that while the Irish government was covertly pro-Allied, both Éamon de Valera and Richard Mulcahy in 1940 estimated Irish public opinion as leaning pro-German. While this TL's Bombing of Bray would certainly hurt those pro-German sentiments as the Belfast Blitz did among Northern Catholics, German accidental bombings in OTL (one of which killed 28 people) didn't do much to reduce pro-neutrality sentiment in Ireland and so plenty of people would still be against entry into "Britain's war". Anti-German propaganda and the promise of unity would mollify these voices to an extent but if Britain's promise wasn't delivered in the end, public rage towards "Perfidious Albion" would rise to all new heights due to tens of thousands of Irishmen essentially dying for nothing.

Frank Aiken's Caomhnóirí na hÉireann party would probably win a lot of seats in the next election. Even in OTL the post-war period in Ireland was a hectic time for parties as many people longed for political change, seeing the brief rise of several populist and radical parties such as Ailtirí na hAiséirghe, Clann na Talmhan and Clann na Poblachta. Many of the elements that made up these parties may end up joining Caomhnóirí na hÉireann in this TL, influencing its policies.

 

[ArtosStark]

he was able to reach out quickly to the embassy, and through them to G2, which had grown substantially from its pre-war nadir. Ireland would, therefore, provide what logistical aid it could to his operation, up to and including the surreptitious deployment of a small number of operatives - primarily drawn from the fledgling Rangers - to assist in the effort to get the refugees to safety

Seems like something that would be passed on to the other allies and be handled by them in concert, since these are POW’s from all members and combined resources are much greater than Ireland’s alone. Probably with the Irish embassy taking point, with the best relationship to O’Flaherty but supported by the other allied embassies to the Vatican and Allied intelligence resources.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Seems like something that would be passed on to the other allies and be handled by them in concert, since these are POW’s from all members and combined resources are much greater than Ireland’s alone. Probably with the Irish embassy taking point, with the best relationship to O’Flaherty but supported by the other allied embassies to the Vatican and Allied intelligence resources.

Oh, indeed. The Irish role is emphasised because this is a lecture on Irish History

 

[Resurgam]

Oh, indeed. The Irish role is emphasised because this is a lecture on Irish History

Not because you're amazing?