Turtledove=/=butterflies

Mr_ Bondoc

Mr_ Bondoc

zoomar said:
With the examples given, I'm not sure which is supposed to be butterfly conscious "hard" AH and low butterfly "soft" AH. I have only read For Want of a Nail, but based on the blurbs for Tranquility Alternative on Amazon.com, it seems both books ignore butterflies at times and consider them on other situations. I'm probably not a good example of your main point, since I have read FWOAN several times and had not even heard of TA or it's author before today. From what I can tell TA is more of mainstream SF/technothriller set in an alternate space age for literary or story-telling purposes. In terms of mass market fiction, AH is still perceived as minor sub-genre of the wider SF/Fantasy genre, which itself is still a niche market - it stands to reason that books which are marketed to appeal to a broader segment of the public (Fatherland, for example) or a few Turtledove books (Guns of the South or The Two Georges) sold better than other better written or more imaginative AH.
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The point is that I don't think it is the issue of "better written" or "more imaginative" is the issue, but rather more understandable to the mainstream public at large. Consider that The Yiddish Policeman's Union by Michael Chabon or The Golden Compass by Philip Pullman have sold very well within the mainstream market. For the most part, people will understand the premise of books like The Two Georges or Fatherland better, mainly because the "low-butterfly" events help audiences get a better grasp of what is going on. This isn't necessarily always the case (e.g. Resistance: Fall of Man video game), but it helps an audience to accept a story more easily than to drop them into a situation that is completely foreign to them. This is one of the reasons the "same item, different names" strategy of story telling works effectively...
 

Finn

Mr_ Bondoc said:
The point is that I don't think it is the issue of "better written" or "more imaginative" is the issue, but rather more understandable to the mainstream public at large. Consider that The Yiddish Policeman's Union by Michael Chabon or The Golden Compass by Philip Pullman have sold very well within the mainstream market. For the most part, people will understand the premise of books like The Two Georges or Fatherland better, mainly because the "low-butterfly" events help audiences get a better grasp of what is going on. This isn't necessarily always the case (e.g. Resistance: Fall of Man video game), but it helps an audience to accept a story more easily than to drop them into a situation that is completely foreign to them. This is one of the reasons the "same item, different names" strategy of story telling works effectively...
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The Golden Compass isn't really a serious alternate history. It's a fantasy in a world very much like Earth.
 

hewhocaves

The last of T's cerdibility went out the window with "The United States of Atlantis".

I'm a geologist. The map hurt my eyes.
 

Draco

The problem with the butterfly effect is that people tend to spend their money more freely on things that they are familiar with which is why most fantasy has elves and dwarfs and why the majority of MMORPGs are fantasy based because it’s comfortable.
In Regards to Turtledove his earlier books weren’t bad so long as you avoided most of the ones dealing with America and although not Pulitzer material I did enjoy his Videsso and Darkness series. Sadly for a decade or so most of his books have been pretty horrendous but it seems to be power for the course as a lot of prolific Authors tend to start churning out crap upon crap after awhile just look at Stephen King and John Grisham.
 

norm4064

Banned
If you don't like it why read it?

I see a lot of knocking of Turtedove, I for one like his writings at least he tries to end a story. From what I have see on this board most what-a be's never end a story. They start off with a good story line then never finish it.
 

sunsurf

:D:DI like the idea. :D

Another problem is, which coincidences do we tolerate?

I haven't read Turtledove's recent ones. I have purchased The Two Georges but I haven't gotten around to reading it. Too much time on the internet. :D:rolleyes:

(By the way, I wonder how much Richard Dreyfuss really contributed to that one? What else has he done in fiction or sf?)

With regard to the novel mentioning somebody with the same name as a certain president...

It's very probable that there were people with the same last name 200 years ago.
It's very possible the family would have a son named Richard.
That Richard could have personality traits in common with people we know in OTL.

So that particular detail doesn't seem so intolerable...does it?

Not that I'm defending his more recent stuff, which I have no interest in. :rolleyes:
 

jmberry

hewhocaves said:
The last of T's cerdibility went out the window with "The United States of Atlantis".

I'm a geologist. The map hurt my eyes.
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What map? I've looked at both "Atlantis" books, and neither of them appear to have a map. They do have covers made by guys who will never read the books or get any information on the plot and world other than "The Appalachians and everything east are an island," but that's not the same.
 

zoomar

jmberry said:
What map? I've looked at both "Atlantis" books, and neither of them appear to have a map. They do have covers made by guys who will never read the books or get any information on the plot and world other than "The Appalachians and everything east are an island," but that's not the same.
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Well, it's apparent from the books that all Turtledove did was take out his mental scissors, cut off the eastern 4th of north america, and stick it out in the atlantic halfway between Europe and the remainder of north america. Makes no sense geoloically. But after reading the 2nd book, that's not the big sin. His big sin to me is making this an excruciatingly boring recapitulation of the American history, featuring all of the original cast of characters with new names. The only good part is the slightly alternate australianesque flora and fauna in Atlantis...which he pretty much ignores. I was quite disappointed. I thought the original concept had real promise as a ASB'ish alternate history
 
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