Triumph of Dixie: A Confederate TL

[Reggie Bartlett]

One thing I never see in Confederate TL's like this is the sort of quagmires of violence Kentucky and Missouri would turn into after a CS victory.

If Kentucky goes CS and Missouri goes Union, you have Unionists raising hell in Kentucky and you still have the likes of Quantrill, Bloody Bill Anderson, Jesse James and others killing people in Unionist parts of Missouri/Kansas.

The war on paper may be over, the blood war in local areas may continue for a long time.

 

[TRH]

One thing I never see in Confederate TL's like this is the sort of quagmires of violence Kentucky and Missouri would turn into after a CS victory.

If Kentucky goes CS and Missouri goes Union, you have Unionists raising hell in Kentucky and you still have the likes of Quantrill, Bloody Bill Anderson, Jesse James and others killing people in Unionist parts of Missouri/Kansas.

The war on paper may be over, the blood war in local areas may continue for a long time.

Forget even those states. Like I said earlier, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia, and Louisiana also have significant Unionist areas that would need pacification. Missouri and Kentucky would only add fuel to an OTL fire.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

One thing I never see in Confederate TL's like this is the sort of quagmires of violence Kentucky and Missouri would turn into after a CS victory.

If Kentucky goes CS and Missouri goes Union, you have Unionists raising hell in Kentucky and you still have the likes of Quantrill, Bloody Bill Anderson, Jesse James and others killing people in Unionist parts of Missouri/Kansas.

The war on paper may be over, the blood war in local areas may continue for a long time.

Oh I've always doubted Kentucky would enthusiastically side with the Confederacy absent some major changes. The Jackson Purchase area would probably have tried to make a West Virginia out of it though, maybe latch itself on to Tennessee or a rump Missouri?

Forget even those states. Like I said earlier, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia, and Louisiana also have significant Unionist areas that would need pacification. Missouri and Kentucky would only add fuel to an OTL fire.

Absent a Union Army to help them out, people in Louisiana, Tennessee, Virgina, and Texas will keep their heads down. They'd have their own Bloody Bill's, but once the war is over its either emigration or reconciliation.

 

[TRH]

Absent a Union Army to help them out, people in Louisiana, Tennessee, Virgina, and Texas will keep their heads down. They'd have their own Bloody Bill's, but once the war is over its either emigration or reconciliation.

Not sure it's that simple, the CSA would have a hard time maintaining a significant army in peacetime, and Appalachia's the biggest hotspot for Unionist sentiment IOTL. It's excellent terrain for guerrilla fighting, and not so easy for tens or hundreds of thousands of people to move out of. It certainly will be a long way from bloodless, and much messier than Loyalists leaving America post-Revolution, which is what I assume you have in mind where emigration goes.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

Not sure it's that simple, the CSA would have a hard time maintaining a significant army in peacetime, and Appalachia's the biggest hotspot for Unionist sentiment IOTL. It's excellent terrain for guerrilla fighting, and not so easy for tens or hundreds of thousands of people to move out of. It certainly will be a long way from bloodless, and much messier than Loyalists leaving America post-Revolution, which is what I assume you have in mind where emigration goes.

My thoughts are that in Tennessee, absent the Union Army (and the Confederate Home Guard becoming a fact of life after the war, yeck) most would simply try and make the best of it come the end of the war. Only the most dedicated Unionists would leave. Same with Texas where there's few other options, and in Louisiana anything that potentially threatened the precarious balance between the white and black populace would be struck down pretty quick.

Missouri would be bad too since even post-war it was a bloodbath for a while, and with what would most likely be a porous border, you'd have a nasty cycle of blood feuds and revenge killings for a while. Same on the Virginia/West-Virginia border where feuds went back generations. Great for guerrilla warfare against each other, and even the occasional raid on a Confederate military outpost or Union one.

That would be messy as hell IMO.

 

[GrayJ12]

This is pretty good.I think this will lead to something to the TL-181 series.

 

[Reggie Bartlett]

Oh I've always doubted Kentucky would enthusiastically side with the Confederacy absent some major changes. The Jackson Purchase area would probably have tried to make a West Virginia out of it though, maybe latch itself on to Tennessee or a rump Missouri?



Absent a Union Army to help them out, people in Louisiana, Tennessee, Virgina, and Texas will keep their heads down. They'd have their own Bloody Bill's, but once the war is over its either emigration or reconciliation.

For the sake of arguement, the CS gets Kentucky in 1862.

You'd have the Hatfield-McCoy feud almost starting The Second US-CS war. It would be a very rocky thing.

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

This is pretty good.I think this will lead to something to the TL-181 series.

TL-191 you mean?

 

[JudgeFifty]

The Insurgency:
Even though the Confederacy had won the war, it was still dealing with several Unionist militias in Kentucky,Tennessee,Missouri,Maryland,and Delaware, everyday the CS Army were dealing with people unwilling to accept there state had been taken over by Jefferson Davis,while there were some who had accepted the lost and moved north to the US, some Anti-Slavery holdouts would adopt guerrilla tactics to destroy Confederate troops tying down the border states, Jefferson Davis however focused on his own Civil affairs rather than Military ones which he often delegated to Confederate Generals such as Robert E Lee, A very controversial act would be shape the Confederacy as a whole, The Christian Act of 1866, would ban all religions except those based off the Christian Religion, however some Jewish Families were allowed to practice Judaism so as long as they were not "destroying the Christian Nation" such as Judah P. Benjamin's family, Jefferson Davis would also continue Slavery despite suggestions from its ally Great Britain not to, Blacks making a last ditch effort to flee to the US or Canada were often taken back to their owners by Confederate Troops, this would draw heavy criticism from the US as it had abolished Slavery almost immediately after the war,many thought a second war would happen soon.

Recovering from the Loss:
The most Americans in the US were disappointed that the Union lost the War, Lincoln would be known as "The President that lost the South" and would not be re-elected in 1864, However westward expansion was rampant as Ladies and Gentlemen from the East often migrated to populate the barren State of California,Oregon and other Territories,Nevada was given statehood soon after the War,It still was not looking good as the economic downfall from the loss of the war, as a result George B McClellan was elected President of the United States,Americans hoped that he would improve the economy and do better then Lincoln did.

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

The Insurgency:
Even though the Confederacy had won the war, it was still dealing with several Unionist militias in Kentucky,Tennessee,Missouri,Maryland,and Delaware, everyday the CS Army were dealing with people unwilling to accept there state had been taken over by Jefferson Davis,while there were some who had accepted the lost and moved north to the US, some Anti-Slavery holdouts would adopt guerrilla tactics to destroy Confederate troops tying down the border states, Jefferson Davis however focused on his own Civil affairs rather than Military ones which he often delegated to Confederate Generals such as Robert E Lee, A very controversial act would be shape the Confederacy as a whole, The Christian Act of 1866, would ban all religions except those based off the Christian Religion, however some Jewish Families were allowed to practice Judaism so as long as they were not "destroying the Christian Nation" such as Judah P. Benjamin's family, Jefferson Davis would also continue Slavery despite suggestions from its ally Great Britain not to, Blacks making a last ditch effort to flee to the US or Canada were often taken back to their owners by Confederate Troops, this would draw heavy criticism from the US as it had abolished Slavery almost immediately after the war,many thought a second war would happen soon.

Recovering from the Loss:
The most Americans in the US were disappointed that the Union lost the War, Lincoln would be known as "The President that lost the South" and would not be re-elected in 1864, However westward expansion was rampant as Ladies and Gentlemen from the East often migrated to populate the barren State of California,Oregon and other Territories,Nevada was given statehood soon after the War,It still was not looking good as the economic downfall from the loss of the war, as a result George B McClellan was elected President of the United States,Americans hoped that he would improve the economy and do better then Lincoln did.

I do not see McClellan getting the nomination, being that he lost the actual battles. Even if he is considered at the time to be the "only man that could win the war" and even "take Richmond" the fact remains that he is the General who lost the battles. SO there should still be a significant amount of blame placed upon him. I'd probably try and find a democratic senator somewhere which seems more logical.

and besides that, i would really like to see the British abandon the COnfederacy. Just an interesting twist to the normal allied British-CSA timelines.

 

[Reggie Bartlett]

Forget even those states. Like I said earlier, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia, and Louisiana also have significant Unionist areas that would need pacification. Missouri and Kentucky would only add fuel to an OTL fire.

In Texas, Louisiana and Tennessee they'd have to eventually accept it. The CS has won, and they are surrounded.

The Unionist elements in Tennessee for instance will be the dominant opinion in Eastern TN, but with a very strong Pro-Confederate minority in that part of the state. The Home Guard will NOT accept that.

Ditto goes for Kentucky. While Northern/Eastern KY will be strongly Unionist, Central and Southern KY would likely just accept it like Western/Middle TN did. However in Kentucky, you had the likes of Devil Anse Hatfield's uncle Jim Vance running around murdering Union soldiers who crossed through his corner of Pikeville. And you had guys like Champ Ferguson coming up time to time to cause trouble.

In Missouri, the Ozarks and the Western Counties, both with large pro-CS sentiments are going to be henpecked by the Union pretty hard. Even if the CS wins in 1862 you could expect a burning of Lawrence to still happen because there will still be people clamoring for blood.

 

[frlmerrin]

So point 1 is, why if the British have gone all Fu Man Chu/King Kong/Corporal Leibensraum and invaded the Union for no reason whatso ever with an enormous army in the Canadas they don't actually have (unless you have a very different POD) does the northern border of the Union remain intact and unaltered? Surely the victorious armies of perfidious Albino under Generals Mekon and Flashman would retain some bits of real estate? Northern New York and the Rochester strip to isolate the USA from Lake Ontario. Northern Vermont and Marine to further protect the border and secure the Grand Trunk railway. Nantucket island would be a wonderful naval base. The Upper Michigan peninsula with the iron deposits would make a splendid new part of Ontario. The Lake in the Woods could be resolved. Everything above the Colombia should sing Rule Brittannia and possibly more territory in the north west as well. What about California?

Which brings me to point 2 how did the absolutely humongous armies of the Confederacy manage to take all of both Union NM and Arizona? In fact without the British taking the south of Alta California it would be almost impossible for the Confederacy to hold even Confederate Arizona.

Point 3 if the British invade the Union the French will enter the war too surely (by the way did anyone else know that the French call Pinball Flipper? Poor old Elton Tommy would have had to do a duet with a dolphin. I wonder if this Joycean stream of consciousness aside will helo my post win this year's Nobel prize for literature?). If the French enter the war the collapse of the Union will allow them to deal with the unpleasant infestation of Juaristas in Mexico which will give them the opportunity to reclaim some of the territory lost in Guadeloupe Hidalgo which might bring them in to conflict over NM and A. No prizes for guessing who wins that one. So once again HTF can the Confederacy hold them?

Point 4 what was the price of British support for the Confederacy.

Point 5 are you going to hang Lincoln? Remember you will need an extra long rope as he is very tall?

 

[Anaxagoras]

I do not see McClellan getting the nomination, being that he lost the actual battles.

I'd guess that Horatio Seymour would be the nominee.

and besides that, i would really like to see the British abandon the COnfederacy. Just an interesting twist to the normal allied British-CSA timelines.

It is more likely that the Confederacy would be allied with the French than with the British. The French actually have something strategic to gain from an alliance, whereas the British don't.

 

[Harald Sigurdson II]

Two words: Confederate colonialism.

What are they going to try to take in the Caribbean and Africa? Liberia is my best guess,

 

[TRH]

Two words: Confederate colonialism.

What are they going to try to take in the Caribbean and Africa? Liberia is my best guess,

They will get the money/spare population for that where? Slaves were expensive enough already, so those are out.

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

Point 5 are you going to hang Lincoln? Remember you will need an extra long rope as he is very tall?

I lol'd

I'd guess that Horatio Seymour would be the nominee.

It makes more sense than MCClellan. For better or worse a war defeat is not just a political loss but also a military one.

It is more likely that the Confederacy would be allied with the French than with the British. The French actually have something strategic to gain from an alliance, whereas the British don't.

THat's obvious. I would not mind CSA-Spain though.

 

[Harald Sigurdson II]

THat's obvious. I would not mind CSA-Spain though.

When the Entente comes into place, the CSA is likely to be drawn in too, putting USA, to oppose the CSA, while protecting itself, like any alliance, in with the Triple Alliance, which also makes sense without the anti-immigration post-Reconstruction feelings against Germans and Italians.

Also, what about a CSA-Brazil alliance and a USA-Mexico alliance?

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

When the Entente comes into place, the CSA is likely to be drawn in too, putting USA, to oppose the CSA, while protecting itself, like any alliance, in with the Triple Alliance, which also makes sense without the anti-immigration post-Reconstruction feelings against Germans and Italians.

Also, what about a CSA-Brazil alliance and a USA-Mexico alliance?

Problem with Mexico is that its a French puppet. If there is no French support, Maximillian would have to turn to the CSA - of course this assumes that it is a Mexican Empire.

 

[JudgeFifty]

So point 1 is, why if the British have gone all Fu Man Chu/King Kong/Corporal Leibensraum and invaded the Union for no reason whatso ever with an enormous army in the Canadas they don't actually have (unless you have a very different POD) does the northern border of the Union remain intact and unaltered? Surely the victorious armies of perfidious Albino under Generals Mekon and Flashman would retain some bits of real estate? Northern New York and the Rochester strip to isolate the USA from Lake Ontario. Northern Vermont and Marine to further protect the border and secure the Grand Trunk railway. Nantucket island would be a wonderful naval base. The Upper Michigan peninsula with the iron deposits would make a splendid new part of Ontario. The Lake in the Woods could be resolved. Everything above the Colombia should sing Rule Brittannia and possibly more territory in the north west as well. What about California?

Which brings me to point 2 how did the absolutely humongous armies of the Confederacy manage to take all of both Union NM and Arizona? In fact without the British taking the south of Alta California it would be almost impossible for the Confederacy to hold even Confederate Arizona.

Point 3 if the British invade the Union the French will enter the war too surely (by the way did anyone else know that the French call Pinball Flipper? Poor old Elton Tommy would have had to do a duet with a dolphin. I wonder if this Joycean stream of consciousness aside will helo my post win this year's Nobel prize for literature?). If the French enter the war the collapse of the Union will allow them to deal with the unpleasant infestation of Juaristas in Mexico which will give them the opportunity to reclaim some of the territory lost in Guadeloupe Hidalgo which might bring them in to conflict over NM and A. No prizes for guessing who wins that one. So once again HTF can the Confederacy hold them?

Point 4 what was the price of British support for the Confederacy.

Point 5 are you going to hang Lincoln? Remember you will need an extra long rope as he is very tall?

I basically had the British forcing the US to cede all disputed states and territories to the CS

 

[JudgeFifty]

The Crackdown:
Martial Law was declared on the border states, all Unionist Rebellions were destroyed, Jefferson Davis would be known in the final year of his presidency as a "Bloody Murderer" in the US and allied states, Slaves were also imported to the border states once Davis declared Kentucky,Missouri,and other states "Purified" of all Rebellions, Slaves were treated worse then in the US often being skinned alive for simply disobeying a basic order, Church attendance were required by all White Families (except for families under the Jewish Exception act of 1866) Alexander Stephens became the 2nd President of the Confederate States in 1867 and was worse then his predecessor, He declared that Women must get permission from there husband to do anything outside of the house and Any slave disobeying orders must be executed by Law, Confederate Congress approved of all of Stephens suggestions. The CS also made an alliance with France and the Second Mexican Empire in 1870

Alliances:
The US with the South lost and a President that many did not trust, the US decided for protection it needed alliances, the US officially made military Alliances with Prussia,Mexican Rebels,Austria,and Columbia, President McClellan cleared his name with humanitarian efforts in the destroyed Philadelphia and improved infrastructure in the West.