Tough Question re: Possible Japanese Empire TL that I am considering

joho6411

Query to any & all WWII Pacific experts out there. I am considering a TL with Japan already possessing The Philippines. POD is a late 1880's-1890's Spanish-Japanese War where, after a Japanese victory, Spain cedes the Philippines to a victorious Japan. But here is the question: After annexing the Philippines, what would the Japanese rename them? I don't think that they would retain "The Philippines" and instead would come up with a name more to their culture/language. I do not want to name them the: "Great Southern Islands", since I think that that is just too lazy for an author(me) to use. Anybody have any idea on what the Japanese would have called/renamed the Philippines? Taiwan/Formosa was called "Takasago Koku" by the Japanese for example. If anyone has an idea or a place to look please let me know. Joho:)
 
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Sumeragi

Banned
Well, for starters, the Japanese established a Republic of the Philippines using the name "Philippines", so OTL would not be of help. Furthermore, Takasago Koku was a traditional name for Taiwan, and wasn't some new name that came up after annexation.

I would think that some broad name, like "Southern Region" (Nanpo, 南方) or "Outer Southern Sea" (Soto Nanyo, 外南洋) would be used. Since this is Japan we're talking about, the Spanish Pacific Islands would most likely be part of Japan, and they would be called "Inner Southern Sea" (Uchi Nanyo, 內南洋).

Maitsu (麻逸), a Chinese name for the Mindoro region, could be used.
 
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joho6411

Sumeragi said:
Well, for starters, the Japanese established a Republic of the Philippines using the name "Philippines", so OTL would not be of help. Furthermore, Takasago Koku was a traditional name for Taiwan, and wasn't some new name that came up after annexation.

I would think that some broad name, like "Southern Region" (Nanpo, 南方) or "Outer Southern Sea" (Soto Nanyo, 外南洋) would be used. Since this is Japan we're talking about, the Spanish Pacific Islands would most likely be part of Japan, and they would be called "Inner Southern Sea" (Uchi Nanyo, 內南洋).

Maitsu (麻逸), a Chinese name for the Mindoro region, could be used.
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Thanks for the info Sumeragi. I will write this down and file it away on my "To Do List", thanks for your input. Correct me if I am wrong, "Nanpo" would be a proper name for the Philippines? Thank you once again. Joho:)
 

Sumeragi

Banned
Personally, I would think that Soto Nanyo would be the best, since it makes a nice contrast with the South Sea Mandate.
 

joho6411

Sumeragi said:
Personally, I would think that Soto Nanyo would be the best, since it makes a nice contrast with the South Sea Mandate.
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Excellent! Thank you once again Sumeragi. I will go with your advice. Next question. What do I call these people who now live there? Are they "Soto Nanyoans?", Are they "Sotoans?", "Nanyoans?", what are/would they be referred to as? Also, since I plan on having ethnic Japanese people settling there; would they, the Japanese, have a special name for: A) Japanese people born in Soto Nanyo of two Japanese parents, and B), People who are of perhaps Japanese father/ and (formerly called Philippina mother) Soto Nanyo native female (mother). As always, I am indebted to your help Sumeragi, Joho:)
 
Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
I can't see Japan beating Spain before the early 1890s, and quite possibly not before they have already beaten China, the naval strengths just would not stack up for one thing.

Seizing the Philippines would be a major undertaking and would certainly divert Japanese ambitions from Korea and thus alleviate the growing unease of Russia.

If Spain loses to Japan it is probably headed for revolution. Cuba is already severely rumbling and the potential for Madrid agreeing a sale to the USA might actually revive.

It will take Japan a while to swallow and assimilate the Philippines, as there will be movements for full independence from certain directions, and even the USA fought a several years-long war in the South.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

Emperor-of-New-Zealand

Grey Wolf said:
Seizing the Philippines would be a major undertaking and would certainly divert Japanese ambitions from Korea and thus alleviate the growing unease of Russia.
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Another possibility is that after capturing the Philippines, Japan might be even more enticed into conquering elsewhere. Whether or not they can is another story, but they most definitely would want to try. Even before the 1930s, Japan has a history of militancy. And that isn't even a bad thing (for Japan) given the context of certain time periods.
 

Sumeragi

Banned
Given that there would most likely be a difference between the administrative name (Soto Nanyo) and the name of the people, I would say that the world "Southern Region Person" (Nanpojin, 南方人) would be the most widely used. Full-Japanese people would most likely be called "Southern Region Japaense" (Nanpo Nihonjin, 南方日本人).

As for halfs..... well, can't think of anything. Most of the time they just called the person by the ethnicity of the father (for example, Woo Jang-choon, a famous Korean-Japanese agricultural scientist, was called Chosenjin (Korean) because his father was Korean, while his mother was Japanese). Of course, sometimes people are called by their non-Japanese ethnicity, like myself (was called a Korean by some of the more ultranationalist students when I was attending Tokyo Uni).
 
Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
Emperor-of-New-Zealand said:
Another possibility is that after capturing the Philippines, Japan might be even more enticed into conquering elsewhere. Whether or not they can is another story, but they most definitely would want to try. Even before the 1930s, Japan has a history of militancy. And that isn't even a bad thing (for Japan) given the context of certain time periods.
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Shimonoseki (if I can spell today) granted Korea independence and the king declared himself to be an emperor, thus to try and place himself on an equal footing between his former overlords in China and his "supporters" in Japan. Now, if Japan focuses South, fights and defeats Spain you have at least a decade where Korea has a chance to stabilise the situation and move forward.

Russia is naturally going to be pressing the issue on the Yalu, but to a degree without the real risk of an armed Japanese intervention is going to be less bombastic in its own approach. Japan KNOWS that it cannot fight Russia with a large proportion of its army by necessity in the Philippines, but will of course try to retain a diplomatic position in Seoul.

I don't see the Philippines being EASY for Japan tho I do see them as being eventually possible, it will just be a struggle. After a decade they should be well-enough established to be secure.

This though would be around 1904 and by then Russia is going to be firmly entrenched in Manchuria (no half-hearted withdrawal) and Korea most probably in the Russian orbit, at least to some degree depending on the other great powers.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

Sumeragi

Banned
I think we have to consider exactly what happened in the Spanish-Japanese War. Supposing that this happened before the Qing-Japan War, Japan would be in a very bad position to intervene in the Donghak Rebellion rebellion as it did in OTL, thereby pretty much taking the conflict out of the picture.

In the meantime, there was the possibility that the rather conservative and nationalist Donghak movement might have retarded the country as a whole, since they were anti-foreigners. However, with the Qing troops acting as a backup, a negotiated truce, ending with some kind of modernization under the Qing shield.

Frankly, I would have to see how the Spanish-Japanese War came about to start speculations.
 

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
Let's see, hypothetically Spain declares war on Japan over a captured shipment of Japanese arms reaching the Katipuneros. Japan insisted that someone else who wasn't 'authorized' to send the guns actually did it. That's all I can think about it. Realistically, Japan focusing on the south does have an additional positive side effects in Korea (ie: no Myeongseong assassination and her goal of an alliance with Russia becomes reality), and also Russia might end up getting more than one warm water port in Asia.
 
Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
IMHO Spain is not going to declare war on Japan unless Japan is acting so provocatively that it is obvious that they themselves intend war. Spain is simply not going to be in any position to prosecute an AGGRESSIVE war, and there's little point declaring a defensive war in and of itself - ie we declare war on you but aren't going to do anything about it!

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

Delta Force

Banned
Grey Wolf said:
I can't see Japan beating Spain before the early 1890s, and quite possibly not before they have already beaten China, the naval strengths just would not stack up for one thing.

Seizing the Philippines would be a major undertaking and would certainly divert Japanese ambitions from Korea and thus alleviate the growing unease of Russia.

If Spain loses to Japan it is probably headed for revolution. Cuba is already severely rumbling and the potential for Madrid agreeing a sale to the USA might actually revive.

It will take Japan a while to swallow and assimilate the Philippines, as there will be movements for full independence from certain directions, and even the USA fought a several years-long war in the South.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
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After defeating China, Japan should be able to defeat Spain easily. They were the weakest colonial power of the era and after China Japan was the strongest naval power in the region.
 

joho6411

Grey Wolf said:
If Spain loses to Japan it is probably headed for revolution. Cuba is already severely rumbling and the potential for Madrid agreeing a sale to the USA might actually revive.

Ah...... Grey Wolf, you have read my mind with what I intended to happen with Spain. Can you say, Spain: The World's first Anarcho-Syndicalist Regime? When Spain gets humiliated by Japan in my story, it will trigger social upheaval and Revolution in Spain. Cuba and Puerto Rico will rebel and gain independence as well. That is all part of my story plan as well. It also leads to no direct U.S. involvement in Cuba or P.R. Both will become independent countries. One prosperous (Cuba) the other impoverished (Puerto Rico).
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joho6411

One thing that I forgot to mention is that this a side story of Japan conquering the Philippines is an extension of my : "Rubber, Revolutionarys, Republicans, and a Young Man Named Bonaparte." Sorry I did not mention that aspect of this idea.:eek: As for Russia & China,......well,....let's not get too far ahead of my plans:D. Thanks for all comments and especially, the help from Sumeragi, Joho :)
 
Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
Delta Force said:
After defeating China, Japan should be able to defeat Spain easily. They were the weakest colonial power of the era and after China Japan was the strongest naval power in the region.
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Maybe it would work that way - it certainly COULD. But one should not DISREGARD Spain, it is not a WEAK naval power.. What happened in OTL is that it came up against a stronger second class naval power (the USA) at a time when some of its own ships were old and in poor condition. Also one should not ignore the fact that from Japan to the Philippines is some distance, although Taiwan will help in that sense.

Sure I can see Japan winning, but its not a walk-over (neither was the USA's victory) and it will stretch Japan logistically and monetarily to the limit. The follow-up will not be cheap either

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
joho6411 said:
Ah...... Grey Wolf, you have read my mind with what I intended to happen with Spain. Can you say, Spain: The World's first Anarcho-Syndicalist Regime? When Spain gets humiliated by Japan in my story, it will trigger social upheaval and Revolution in Spain. Cuba and Puerto Rico will rebel and gain independence as well. That is all part of my story plan as well. It also leads to no direct U.S. involvement in Cuba or P.R. Both will become independent countries. One prosperous (Cuba) the other impoverished (Puerto Rico).
Click to expand...

Nice ideas! I never even considered what an independent Puerto Rico would be like!

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
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