To Prove A History Teacher Wrong

[Derek Pullem]

Ok i will but the class is horrible anyway as its a christian school and heavily slanted that way.

What are some ways i could make the class more interactive and bring a few minds to our side maybe? Its a United States history class and we are just getting to the United States involvement in World War 2.

Watch "Flags of our Fathers" and "Letters from Iwo Jima". Compare and contrast the American and Japanese attitudes to war with specific reference to the Iwo Jima campaign.

 

[CalBear]

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[elkarlo]

They knew an attack somewhere was brewing.

The fact that Japan had recalled it's merchant fleet and was hiding it's fleet. Just way too many redlflags, and we just ignored em all.

 

[CalBear]

They knew an attack somewhere was brewing.

The fact that Japan had recalled it's merchant fleet and was hiding it's fleet. Just way too many redlflags, and we just ignored em all.

We didn't ignore any of them (well, maybe MacArthur, but the rest of the country didn't).

There was a War Warning on 11/26/41 that went out acrosss the Pacific.

There wasn't a whisper about Pearl Harbor.

 

[teg]

Today in class, my teacher was teaching World War 2 to the class and came to Pearl Harbor. He talked of the attack and how we were innocent Americans totally surprised by such a cruel, undeserved, and unprovoked attack. I preceded to argue in front of the whole class with my teacher for 15 minutes about how Roosevelt knew of the attack before and allowed it to happen to bring the United States into war. The only thing that stopped us was the class ending.

How much did Roosevelt know about the impending attack?
What are some good sources of useful information to show that there was just some foreknowledge?

Roosevelt did not allow the attack to happen. He had relatively little way of stopping it occuring; as he did not where the Japanese were going to strike or whether they were going to strike at all. Confronting the Japanese about this would have just revealed they had broken the Japanese navy's codes, which would have been a significant strategic defeat.

 

[Wendell]

The U.S. had information that the Japanese were probably going to attack, but the location of said attack was not determined from the information available. U.S. officials thought that Manila was likelier for a variety of reasons. However, if the U.S. had the intelligence infrastructure then that it does today, the attack might have been thwarted. That said, FDR should not be blamed for intel failings in 1941.

 

[lothaw]

It's not a conspiracy theory that the United States foreign policy at the time was one of provocation to Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. The undeclared war in the Altantic, which had been going on for months, and the US oil embargo against Japan was designed exactly to provoke the 'bad guys' into drawing first blood.

Not to mention if the US was really upset about China they would have done something in 1937 when they first invaded as opposed to 1940-1 some 3-4 years after the fact, only when Germany is starting to become a threat.

 

[Snake Featherston]

It's not a conspiracy theory that the United States foreign policy at the time was one of provocation to Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. The undeclared war in the Altantic, which had been going on for months, and the US oil embargo against Japan was designed exactly to provoke the 'bad guys' into drawing first blood.

Not to mention if the US was really upset about China they would have done something in 1937 when they first invaded as opposed to 1940-1 some 3-4 years after the fact, only when Germany is starting to become a threat.

Except the USA (with some reason given how 1917 had worked) expected Germany to be the one to strike first, not Japan. That Japan did so and did so in the way it did completely blindsided the USA. They were too busy provoking the brown bear to notice the sun bear creeping up behind them.

 

[HeavyWeaponsGuy]

It's not a conspiracy theory that the United States foreign policy at the time was one of provocation to Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. The undeclared war in the Altantic, which had been going on for months, and the US oil embargo against Japan was designed exactly to provoke the 'bad guys' into drawing first blood.

Not to mention if the US was really upset about China they would have done something in 1937 when they first invaded as opposed to 1940-1 some 3-4 years after the fact, only when Germany is starting to become a threat.

It is not a conspiracy theory that the USA's "neutrality" existed on paper only and that Japan's designs in the Asian region meant that the USA was a major threat they felt they would need to take care of.

It is a conspiracy theory that FDR somehow knew that the attack on Pearl Harbor was coming ahead of time and that he knew exactly where it was going to hit and that he simply did not act for the sake of motivating the American public with the outrage of a surprise attack. It doesn't offend me to hear that (since I wasn't alive at PH) as it does to hear that 9/11 was planned by the Bush administration but it comes close.

 

[lothaw]

It is not a conspiracy theory that the USA's "neutrality" existed on paper only and that Japan's designs in the Asian region meant that the USA was a major threat they felt they would need to take care of.

It is a conspiracy theory that FDR somehow knew that the attack on Pearl Harbor was coming ahead of time and that he knew exactly where it was going to hit and that he simply did not act for the sake of motivating the American public with the outrage of a surprise attack. It doesn't offend me to hear that (since I wasn't alive at PH) as it does to hear that 9/11 was planned by the Bush administration but it comes close.

I never said the later(about PH or 9/11), I just said US policy was encouraging some sort of preemptive strike from either Germany or Japan at the time. "The Neutrality Patrols" in the Atlantic, the US escorting British convoys nearly resulted in numerous engagements between the USN and Kreigsmarine. The most notable was the U-203 nearly sinking the USS Texas in early 1941. That alone would have touched off the war.

The most that can be said about Pearl Harbor is that all the pieces to figure out the puzzle where there, though the failure to do so was more a failing of policy than anything deliberate on FDR or the military's part.

FDR didn't "know" about Pearl Habor, but he did provoke Japan into making the first move with coercive diplomacy. I think pretty much he didn't realize how much Japan had at stake that they -were- backed into the proverbial corner.

 

[HeavyWeaponsGuy]

I never said the later(about PH or 9/11), I just said US policy was encouraging some sort of preemptive strike from either Germany or Japan at the time. "The Neutrality Patrols" in the Atlantic, the US escorting British convoys nearly resulted in numerous engagements between the USN and Kreigsmarine. The most notable was the U-203 nearly sinking the USS Texas in early 1941. That alone would have touched off the war.

The most that can be said about Pearl Harbor is that all the pieces to figure out the puzzle where there, though the failure to do so was more a failing of policy than anything deliberate on FDR or the military's part.

FDR didn't "know" about Pearl Habor, but he did provoke Japan into making the first move with coercive diplomacy. I think pretty much he didn't realize how much Japan had at stake that they -were- backed into the proverbial corner.

Ah okay, I misinterpreted you to some extent, my bad.

 

[LittleSpeer]

I think there are several things that are known:
1) FDR wanted into the war because he believed that a Nazi Germany in control of the bulk of Eurasia was a potential threat to the USA.
2) He knew he couldn't get a declaration of war through Congress.
3) He had tried provoking the Germans in the N. Atlantic, but they wouldn't bite.
4) The US in negotiations with the Japanese presented them with humiliating terms, which there was no chance of them accepting.
4) When the Japanese rejected the terms and the US embargo was imposed, FDR knew very well that it would lead to war.
6) The US military was expecting war with Japan (there was a 'general war warning' sent on 27th November, so the attack was very far from being a 'bolt from the blue'.)
5) The US knew that Japan was going to attack US interests on the 7th Dec because the declaration of an end to diplomatic relations was intercepted and decoded the day before before it was presented by the Japanese ambassador.
6) Some intelligence officers recognised that the timing of the Japanese declaration coincided with dawn in Hawaii but failed to persuade more senior officers to pass on warnings until it was too late.

The above isn't necessarily a 'conspiracy' though.

The evidence that FDR knew of the attack on Peal Harbor and deliberately sacrificed it is thin at best, but the theory at least has a basis of fact in that the generally held 'bolt from the blue' legend isn't true.

This article reviews the evidence often brought up by revisionists.

i think this is the most condensed summary of help here, thanks

 

[ComradeFlyer]

it's more of a "well here's the reasons they had for doing it" way that doesn't excuse Japan's attack (and it was most certainly pretty inexcusable) but at least makes the attack more understandable from the Japanese PoV, they had interests in the region, we threatened them, they needed us out of the way.

Those are the types of things I mention when I teach World War 2 in my classes.

 

[elkarlo]

We didn't ignore any of them (well, maybe MacArthur, but the rest of the country didn't).

There was a War Warning on 11/26/41 that went out acrosss the Pacific.

There wasn't a whisper about Pearl Harbor.

Very true. Anyhow the point is, we were expecting a war to commence in the immediate future. It's not like we were hanging out, and then the Japanese attacked us out of no where.

 

[HeavyWeaponsGuy]

Those are the types of things I mention when I teach World War 2 in my classes.

Nifty! I try and get people to understand the other side in certain things that are able to be rationalized, especially the Soviet Union and such and how they historically had every reason to want a buffer zone.

 

[ComradeFlyer]

Nifty! I try and get people to understand the other side in certain things that are able to be rationalized, especially the Soviet Union and such and how they historically had every reason to want a buffer zone.

I agree completely. I teach world history to American teenagers so it is a struggle to get them out of their comfort zone at times. I always try to show all the sides of the major events in history, especially ones that directly involve the United States so as to show that the American world view isn't the only worldview.

 

[UrbanRedneck]

If only life was like the movies where some smart cookie intel officer or general reads the tea leaves about an impending situation and take appropriate response. And is later proven correct.

 

[Cook]

If only life was like the movies where some smart cookie intel officer or general reads the tea leaves about an impending situation and take appropriate response. And is later proven correct.

Stanislav Petrov would qualify.

 

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

My Father, his Birthday Today BTW, has an Odd Take on this CT ...

In a Nutshell, he Believes that The US Knew about The Attack, BUT, that FDR was Justified in Allowing it!

Personally, My View is Much More Along The Lines of, The US Spent that ENTIRE Summer, Daring Japan, to Punch them in The Face ...

Who Knew, they'd Knee them in The Groin, Instead?

 

[Citizen Samuel]

It's not a conspiracy theory that the United States foreign policy at the time was one of provocation to Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. The undeclared war in the Altantic, which had been going on for months, and the US oil embargo against Japan was designed exactly to provoke the 'bad guys' into drawing first blood.

Japan and Germany were the ones provoking the US by invading countries and threatening key American interests. The US oil embargo was designed exactly to force the Japanese military to reassess its aggressive foreign policy, and the Atlantic campaign was launched to stop Germany from defeating Britain.

Not to mention if the US was really upset about China they would have done something in 1937 when they first invaded as opposed to 1940-1 some 3-4 years after the fact, only when Germany is starting to become a threat.

The US oil embargo was in response to the Japanese invasion of French Indochina.