TL 191 WI: No Mormon or Congaree rebellions in First Great War.

[Alternatehistorybuff5341]

I am now half way through reading harry Turtledove's Great War II: Walk in Hell. The Mormons have just surrendered and the Congaree Socialists are now guerrilla fighting in the deep south forests and swamps. It is obvious that both rebellions are going to harm those involved. Confederate blacks are now untrustable in the south, and anyone who may have considered giving them more rights will now be inclined not to. And the Mormons are under military occupation, and many constitutional rights pertaining to freedom of religion are now overruled. Plus, both the United States and the Confederate States had to divert troops to put down both rebellions.

But what if neither of these rebellions had taken place? How would the Great War have gone in this time line if neither the US or CS had to divert troops. Would Featherston be even elected if the Congaree rebellion never happened? What would be the fate of the Union's Mormon population following the war?

What do you think would happen?

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

US would most likely still win due to superior manpower and also industry.

Also, Custer would most likely still do his Barrel-Roll offensive.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

Featherston likely wouldn't get elected, less of a stab in the back myth, that said it's likely without the revolt they don't end up using black troops

US still wins, way too much manpower and industry to really lose

As for the US the Mormons likely end up fully integrated into the US

 

[mowque]

Makes no difference because Turtledove wants to do certain things.

 

[Trotsky]

The Congaree rebellion was but one of many Red rebellions breaking out all over the Confederate heartland at the same time. Makes no difference to either the ultimate outcome of the war or to Featherston's career, as the derailment of his promotion chances in the Army were tied to the Stuarts and their Pompey, and Pompey was involved in subversive activities right behind the front line in Maryland, not South Carolina.

 

[oshron]

The Congaree rebellion was but one of many Red rebellions breaking out all over the Confederate heartland at the same time. Makes no difference to either the ultimate outcome of the war or to Featherston's career, as the derailment of his promotion chances in the Army were tied to the Stuarts and their Pompey, and Pompey was involved in subversive activities right behind the front line in Maryland, not South Carolina.

for the purposes of discussion, let's just consider all of the black socialist movements; the OP has only gotten to the second book in the Great War series, and the Congaree is given the most attention of them all

 

[teg]

for the purposes of discussion, let's just consider all of the black socialist movements; the OP has only gotten to the second book in the Great War series, and the Congaree is given the most attention of them all

You have to fundamentally change the nature of the CSA to make avoiding mass black unrest possible, and if it happens it will happen when the CSA is fighting for its existence. Kicking the oppressors when they are down is a good move for the most part...

teg

 

[Trotsky]

for the purposes of discussion, let's just consider all of the black socialist movements; the OP has only gotten to the second book in the Great War series, and the Congaree is given the most attention of them all

The OP is halfway through book two, not only just gotten there, and he also apparently knows Featherston's ultimate career track.

 

[oshron]

The OP is halfway through book two, not only just gotten there, and he also apparently knows Featherston's ultimate career track.

my point is the same (and i'm personally refraining from giving out spoilers as best as i can as a courtesy )

 

[Will Kürlich Kerl]

Because TL-191 is technically a work of fiction, should threads like this be posted in here or in ASB?

 

[The Uchronian]

Because TL-191 is technically a work of fiction, should threads like this be posted in here or in ASB?

Probably would be better staying here now, I think.

 

[Trotsky]

Because TL-191 is technically a work of fiction, should threads like this be posted in here or in ASB?

It's a published series, and how in the seven taco bell hells would this be ASB?

 

[Lord Insane]

It's a published series, and how in the seven taco bell hells would this be ASB?

"Also alternate histories taking place in fictional universes". TL-191 is a fictional universe.

 

[Dirk_Pitt]

"Also alternate histories taking place in fictional universes". TL-191 is a fictional universe.

But it is an alt-history within an alt-history... It's AH-ception!

 

[Darth Invictus]

If neither happens I could see Featherston swapping sides and ending up a supporter of greater rights for negroes in the CSA, he told the two who worked his artillery that they were good at it and he surprised himself in admitting it. And if Jeb Stuart III doesn't commit suicide by Yankee there's a chance he'd get promoted up

Without the Mormons those regiments end up staying where they are in Kentucky and Roanoke and get ground into hamburger by Custer's Haig-esque tactics. Maybe more deaths will mean he's tossed out as he'll end up mangling a lot more troops. As an aside the CSA may relent to allow negroes into the army but in non supporting roles freeing up white men to go fight

 

[jycee]

If neither happens I could see Featherston swapping sides and ending up a supporter of greater rights for negroes in the CSA, he told the two who worked his artillery that they were good at it and he surprised himself in admitting it. And if Jeb Stuart III doesn't commit suicide by Yankee there's a chance he'd get promoted up

Without the Mormons those regiments end up staying where they are in Kentucky and Roanoke and get ground into hamburger by Custer's Haig-esque tactics. Maybe more deaths will mean he's tossed out as he'll end up mangling a lot more troops. As an aside the CSA may relent to allow negroes into the army but in non supporting roles freeing up white men to go fight

This is actually one of the few things I thought the HT did awesomely in the series. Both Featherston and Pinkard look like they might develop into supporters of negroe rights in the CSA at first. Featherston mentions a few times that he doesn't care who is working the artillery as long as they do it right. Meanwhile Pinkard works at the foundry alongside negroes, and for a brief second it looks like he might even join the commies.

Yet it is other personal experiences (the post-war veteran life for Featherston, and the relationship with his wife for Pinkard) that drive them to be the monsters they become.

No large scale black rebellion in the CSA and an easier peace. An both could be easily forgotten. Featherston would only join the black-rights camp if he can further his career at it (that is for certain), while Pinkard might actually join it as a different excuse to forget about his troubles at home.

At the same time Ramsey (or whatever was his name), who is killed for his Rad-Lib suppourt, could become the next great leader of the CSA.

 

[Trotsky]

This is actually one of the few things I thought the HT did awesomely in the series. Both Featherston and Pinkard look like they might develop into supporters of negroe rights in the CSA at first. Featherston mentions a few times that he doesn't care who is working the artillery as long as they do it right. Meanwhile Pinkard works at the foundry alongside negroes, and for a brief second it looks like he might even join the commies.

Featherston never trusted blacks -- his upbringing as an overseer's son all but ensured that. Even when they save his life his first instinct was to murder them then and there to make sure no one else notices.

Yet it is other personal experiences (the post-war veteran life for Featherston, and the relationship with his wife for Pinkard) that drive them to be the monsters they become.

No, the Snake becomes a monster well before the Armistice. He's already entertaining thoughts about how to get revenge on blacks even before the Remembrance Day Offensive, and then on that day and on many days after that he's perfectly willing to blow the ones that cross his path to hell and gone. The bitterness and demons of national defeat just drive his rage even further.

Pinkard, I don't think was as racist as Featherston until Featherston himself compels him to explore his inner demons.

At the same time Ramsey (or whatever was his name), who is killed for his Rad-Lib suppourt, could become the next great leader of the CSA.

Reggie Bartlett. Ramsay was a cavalryman killed out west in book one, and we never saw his views on race other than that Indians were loyal to the CSA, so good soldiers they ought to make.

 

[Darth Invictus]

Featherston never trusted blacks -- his upbringing as an overseer's son all but ensured that. Even when they save his life his first instinct was to murder them then and there to make sure no one else notices.

No, the Snake becomes a monster well before the Armistice. He's already entertaining thoughts about how to get revenge on blacks even before the Remembrance Day Offensive, and then on that day and on many days after that he's perfectly willing to blow the ones that cross his path to hell and gone. The bitterness and demons of national defeat just drive his rage even further.

I don't agree, I think Sarge was on the path to changing his ways, like he said the two slaves were good enuogh he'd let them work the gun again and couldn't bring himself to kill them becuase they'd saved his life. The seeds were planted and could've grown

Pinkard, I don't think was as racist as Featherston until Featherston himself compels him to explore his inner demons.

True and even if his wife remains the slag she was in the book he could've had the blacks and especially Pericles there to talk to about it, that then leading him more down that road


If as some have theorized the CSA was written as being desperate enough sans red rebellion to use black soldiers (say they're close to Philadelphia but with some more men they can break through to the de facto Yankee capital) and that wins the war, then we might see something different.

Maybe we see a Confederacy that begrudgingly respects black soldiers and a lot of the working men in the trenches will have met and fought alongside them. We see in Settling Accounts that many Great War vets who served with Mexicans ignore color and respect them devoid of the prejudice of the white southern society. There's no reason to suspect that with a black assisted victory more white former soldiers wouldn't come out in support of increased rights for blacks in the Confederacy. Maybe Featherston can utilize his gifts for that end, at his core aside from racism he hates those born with everything being someone who had to fight to get what he had, that mindset may lead him to sympathize more with blacks especially black veterans

 

[Trotsky]

I don't agree, I think Sarge was on the path to changing his ways, like he said the two slaves were good enuogh he'd let them work the gun again and couldn't bring himself to kill them becuase they'd saved his life. The seeds were planted and could've grown

He used Nero and Perseus, laborers not slaves (though given it's the CSA that almost is splitting hairs), because he had to, because he had no trained white soldiers to use first, because not using them meant his own death. Whatever he told them when the affair was done was an acknowledgement of what had just occurred, not an endorsement. He went on feeling like shit over what had happened, and the only time he felt comfortable around Nero and Perseus was when they were distrusting of Pompey: the exact opposite of a ringing endorsement.

As for his budding seeds of Southern white man liberalism, his final thoughts on the affair before the Red rebellions turned him down the road of rage:

"That they are [the best blacks in the battery]," Jake Featherston said. His tone of voice was a little different [from his loader's]: he'd used Nero and Perseus as men, however uncomfortable that had made both him and them. He shook his head. He neither particularly liked nor particularly trusted blacks, and the principal reason for that was his certainty that they had more capacity than they showed. As an overseer's son, that worried him. The surprise you got if you kept thinking a man a boy was apt to be dreadful.

He didn't mention that the two blacks had helped him fight the gun. The crew he had now knew it, but they seemed intent on pretending they hadn't; he tried to pretend it hadn't happened, too. Doing anything else tore a hole in the fabric of the Confederate way of life. He was glad Nero and Perseus hadn't turned uppity on account of their exploit. They would have been sorry for that, and some of that blame would have stuck to him, too.

 

[Darth Invictus]

He used Nero and Perseus, laborers not slaves (though given it's the CSA that almost is splitting hairs), because he had to, because he had no trained white soldiers to use first, because not using them meant his own death. Whatever he told them when the affair was done was an acknowledgement of what had just occurred, not an endorsement. He went on feeling like shit over what had happened, and the only time he felt comfortable around Nero and Perseus was when they were distrusting of Pompey: the exact opposite of a ringing endorsement.

As for his budding seeds of Southern white man liberalism, his final thoughts on the affair before the Red rebellions turned him down the road of rage:

There was the potential there, even in the Great War trilogy the USA used blacks in Kentucky as laborers not because many liked them but because they were avilable and could help the war effort, out of necessity, similar to how Featherston needed to use them to save his own skin. And if the view of blacks in the CSA shifts from "they cost us the war" to "they helped us win the war" then that could set the snake down a different road less filed with hate. After blacks and the USA his main focus of hate was the southern aristocracy, if they try and force things back to the war they were post war if the CSA wins, they become his main target (with him now viewing the blacks as if not equal then more useful and respectful and the USA as a beaten power). Even during GW2 he kept his view of supporting the common (white) man, that could spin off into at least arguing the black soldiers get what they were promised for their service if the CSA wins


If the CSA wins and gets what's laid out in this map then the Confederate Army will still need to be large to hold things down and that means Featherston has more of a shot of staying enlisted and getting promoted. This is assuming he's still a sargeant after the war ends (Potter stated that if Jeb Jr hadn't kept him as a non-com they'd probably be the same rank, Major by 1917)