TL-191: After the End
- Thread starter David bar Elias
- Start date
It would be interesting to see the biographies of Cripps, Morrison and Benson.
The Empire of Brazil does not have a presidential office in TTL. Brazil has a reigning monarch and is governed by a prime minister.
By 2023, the reigning monarch of Brazil is Emperor Alexandre I.
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I don’t know the best way to include an analogue to Nelson Rockefeller in a TL-191 continuation. He doesn’t exist in TTL, but he could be part of another continuation timeline.
However, even if a close analogue to Nelson Rockefeller did exist in TTL, there’s no guarantee that he would have simile political positions as his counterpart from our world, or would even be involved in politics at all.
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By 2023, an analogue to the Rockefeller family does exist in TTL. The family mostly lives in Pennsylvania or New York, and is very wealthy. Some members of the Rockefeller family became prominent art collectors, or supported museums in Philadelphia and New York City.
How is John Brown (the abolitionist) viewed by 2023? I imagine there may be a blockbuster biopic about him.
By the late 19th Century, and throughout the 20th Century, John Brown was held up as a national hero in the United States. Brown was a historical figure who was predominant in the Remembrance ideology that developed in the United States before and during the First Great War. Brown was particularly popular in Kansas, there are monuments to him throughout the state by 2023.
John Brown was the subject of several popular films in the United States, most prominently The Life of John Brown, an epic biopic that was released in 1955. Brown also served as the inspiration for various fictional characters in works unrelated to his actual life. By 2023, there are US cultural historians who argue that there is a “John Brown archetype” present in US popular culture, especially in genres such as American Fantasy.
Assuming Rockerfeller exists in an alternate TL ~ 191 continuation, just for the sake of the scenario, what policies would he probably enforce as President?
Who are the Prime Ministers of Brazil in your TL ~ 191 continuation?
In 2023 what is the status of Spanish on Cuba? Is it similar to IRL Cuba or has English displaced the language on the island?
By 2023, Spanish is still spoken in the US state of Cuba, though English is now the most commonly spoken language.
Is it possible for someone here to do a post 2162 map? Like some time during the interstellar wars?
which is worse 2023 Ecological Union or 2023 our world North Korea?
Why does Japan tolerate its citizens leaving instead of just locking them up? What would the process be for an average Japanese citizen to get kicked out instead of locked up?
Why does Japan tolerate its citizens leaving instead of just locking them up? What would the process be for an average Japanese citizen to get kicked out instead of locked up?
I'm guessing because Japan ISN'T North Korea. I'm also hoping Kim Jong Un and his family don't exist in this alternate universe.
I'm more curious about the fate of Fidel Castro and Che Guevara in this timeline, with the U.S. having annexed Cuba by right of conquest from the C.S.A. Are there any organisations or individuals who advocate Cuban independence, or might the U.S. end up electing a Cuban ~ born President?
I'd also like to know who the Prime Ministers of Brazil are in this version, as well as the Presidents of Argentina from 1914 onwards.
It would be intresting if Fidel Castro would act governor of Cuba.
Speaking about Argentine and Brazil, did Juan Perón and Getúlio Vargas born ITTL and if so, what were their careers?
Richard Cripps, the analogue in TTL for Stafford Cripps, was born on a different date compared to our world. He served in the British Army during the First Great War, and was sent home in 1915 after being wounded on the Western Front.
Cripps, after his experiences on the Western Front, became a pacifist, which was complimented by a strong Christian faith. Cripps became a supporter of the Labour Party after the General Strike of 1925. In 1927, Cripps was elected to Parliament as part of the victory of the Labour Party under Ramsay MacDonald. Although he wasn’t politically influential during MacDonald’s time in office, Cripps did gain a position of leadership among a group of Labour MPs who were sympathetic to socialist political thought and economic policies.
Cripps remained in Parliament following the victory of the Conservative-Silver Shirt Coalition in the 1932 elections, but found himself increasingly alone as the Coalition began to consolidate power and remove its political enemies by both legal and illegal means. Cripps was arrested in 1934, on false charges of plotting labor unrest and of involvement with the 1925 General Strike, and was given a ten year sentence. Cripps was initially imprisoned, along with other political prisoners, at a prison built on the Isle of Man. In 1939, Cripps and other prisoners held on the Isle of Man were transferred to a new prison and fort that had been built by the Coalition on the Scottish island of Jura, called Camp 100.
Postwar British historians who specialized on the Coalition regime came to a consensus, upon examining surviving documents and archival material from the 1930s and 1940s, that it was a policy of the regime to try to break its political enemies to the point where they would no longer be an effective threat even if they were released, with a callous indifference to the well-being of the political prisoners themselves. Richard Cripps never renounced his political views while imprisoned at Camp 100, and gained a position of leadership among the other prisoners. The prisoners at Camp 100 were released in 1944, after the end of the Second Great War and the fall of the Coalition regime.
Richard Cripps became the leader of a Labour Parry whose leadership and supporters were embittered by the long years of political prosecution under the former regime. The leadership of the revitalized Labour Party was made up of those who had remained in Britain as political prisoners. Cripps led the Labour Party to a landslide victory in the first postwar British general elections, but did not actively campaign himself, because of health problems worsened from his own long imprisonment. He served as Prime Minister until his death in office in 1950, from health problems stemming from his imprisonment on Jura.
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Stanley Morrison, the analogue in TTL to Herbert Morrison, was born on a different date compared to our world. His life was not dramatically different from his counterpart from OTL until after the end of the First Great War. Morrison, like others on the British political left in 1920s, was radicalized by the economic problems stemming from the war, and the General Strike of 1925. Unlike in our world, he remained in Parliament throughout the 1920s. Following the victory of Ramsay MacDonald in the elections of 1927, Morrison was given responsibility for the Ministry of Pensions.
Morrison’s political career came to an abrupt halt after the victory of the Conservative-Silver Shirt Coalition in 1932. Morrison was arrested on false charges of corruption in 1933, and was also accused of helping to plan the 1925 General Strike. Morrison was given a 20 year prison sentence. Similar to other political prisoners, Morrison was initially held at a temporary prison, this one located at Land’s End, before being moved to a more remote prison. In 1940, Morrison, along with other political prisoners, was move to Camp 110, located on the Isles of Scilly. Morrison and the other prisoners were not released from Camp 110 until 1944, following the end of the Second Great War and the fall of the Coalition regime.
Stanley Morrison became a close political ally of Richard Cripps, who appointed Morrison as his deputy prime minister following the victory of the Labour Party. Morrison succeeded Prime Minister Cripps following his death in office in 1950.
Morrison, during his time in office, oversaw the reconstruction of London, Brighton, and Norwich from the German superbomb attacks in 1944, though the rebuilding of these cities would not be completed by the time he left office in 1957. Morrison’s more ambitious plans for a welfare state and universal healthcare would also not be realized, because of the austere postwar British economy. Morrison did succeed in addressing some long standing social problems, such as the shortage of housing. It was also under Morrison that the groundwork was made for the modernization of British roads and railways later in the 20th Century.
Stanley Morrison resigned from office in 1957 because of health problems stemming from his long imprisonment in the 1930s and 1940s. He died in 1960.
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Tom Benson, the analogue in TTL to George Benson, was born on a different date compared to our world. Unlike his counterpart from OTL, Benson was not a conscientious objector to military service. He served in the British Army on the Western Front during the First Great War. After the end of the war in 1917, Benson returned to a nation in political and economic turmoil.
Benson spent the first half of the 1920s engaged in political organizing in support of the Labour Party, and also supported the 1925 General Strike. Benson was elected to Parliament in 1927, and became a political ally of Richard Cripps. Benson lost his seat in the 1932 elections, and was one of the people arrested in the first wave of political repression in the United Kingdom in 1933. Benson, after years of imprisonment, was transferred to Camp 115 on the Scottish island of Skye in 1941. Tom Benson and the other prisoners were released from Camp 115 in 1944, after the end of the Second Great War and the fall of the Coalition regime.
Tom Benson was elected to Parliament in the Labour Party’s landslide victory in 1947.
In 1951, Benson joined the cabinet of Prime Minister Stanley Morrison as Minister of Labour, a position that he held until 1956, when Morrison appointed him as his deputy prime minister. Benson succeeded Morrison after his resignation from office because of health problems in 1957. As Prime Minister, Benson’s time in office coincided with the beginning of an economic recovery in Britain in the late 1950s and early 1960s, which allowed for the establishment of the National Universal Health Service in 1964. Benson also oversaw the completion of the reconstruction of London, Brighton and Norwich, and the beginning of a diplomatic reconciliation with the Austro-Hungarian Empire and German Empire through the European Community.
One legacy of Benson’s premiership was the Charter of Liberties and Responsibilities, a document modelled after the US Bill of Rights and planned as the basis for a written British constitution, and was brought into law in 1965. The Charter of Liberties and Responsibilities placed limits of the ability of the government to curb the basic liberties of the population, and was a legacy of the political repression of the Coalition regime.
Tom Benson left office in 1967. He was the last Prime Minister of the United Kingdom to have experienced lengthy imprisonment under the Coalition regime. He died in 1971.
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By 2023, the Ecological Union is not worse than North Korea from our world in terms of political repression or economic development. However, conditions worsened in the Ecological Union fully consolidated power and gradually became more ideologically extreme.
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The regimes of both the Japanese Worker’s Republic and the Ecological Union genuinely believed, especially in the earliest periods of their rule, that their respective societies were the greatest in the world, and that they would serve as the basis for a final utopia for the entire world. This meant that ideologues in both regimes believed that the worst imaginable punishment to inflict on an imagined enemy was to exile them permanently from what was believed to be the most benevolent and utopian society on Earth.
The Ecological Union, for all of its claims of protecting its citizens and building a perfect society, developed into a lawless state where no one, except perhaps in the ruling Ecological Collective, had any guaranteed rights. The fate of anyone accused of an offence against the state, and whether or not they would be expelled from the nation, might rest in the hands of one or two people within the lower ranks of the ruling Ecological Collective.
@floyd22 ”I'm more curious about the fate of Fidel Castro and Che Guevara in this timeline, with the U.S. having annexed Cuba by right of conquest from the C.S.A. Are there any organisations or individuals who advocate Cuban independence, or might the U.S. end up electing a Cuban ~ born President?”
Fidel Castro was a wealthy real estate owner who wrote his memoirs as a guerilla fighter and retired to his estate who for the rest of his life voted socialist. There’s no indication that he’d want independence, given the destructive war on the island means someone needs to rebuild it as shown by this quote
“August 8, 1946—In a referendum, the citizens of Cuba vote to seek ascension to the Union as a state. Despite the desire of some die-hards for independence, most were simply grateful to be rid of the Freedom Party.
January 1, 1947—Cuba is admitted into the Union. It will be the only former Confederate state to regularly vote for the Socialists.”
Especially after many decades of peaceful prosperity without any reason to go independent, by 2162 the idea of independence would be minus 1% equal to the percentage of Cornwall being independent from England. They already had a Cuban born Sergio Hernandez (SO-CU): February 1st, 2005-February 1st, 2013, he was competent, a crime-buster and was notable for pursuing the Sudan War.
Che Guevara wouldn’t exist because he was born in the late 1920s. In this timeline if you’re a historical person born after 1920 chances are you don’t exist. An anti-imperialist wouldn’t find any power to fight for Canada/Southern/Caribbean independence from the U.S. due to complete lack of outside support, and prosperity weakening independence support.
Fidel Castro was a wealthy real estate owner who wrote his memoirs as a guerilla fighter and retired to his estate who for the rest of his life voted socialist. There’s no indication that he’d want independence, given the destructive war on the island means someone needs to rebuild it as shown by this quote
“August 8, 1946—In a referendum, the citizens of Cuba vote to seek ascension to the Union as a state. Despite the desire of some die-hards for independence, most were simply grateful to be rid of the Freedom Party.
January 1, 1947—Cuba is admitted into the Union. It will be the only former Confederate state to regularly vote for the Socialists.”
Especially after many decades of peaceful prosperity without any reason to go independent, by 2162 the idea of independence would be minus 1% equal to the percentage of Cornwall being independent from England. They already had a Cuban born Sergio Hernandez (SO-CU): February 1st, 2005-February 1st, 2013, he was competent, a crime-buster and was notable for pursuing the Sudan War.
Che Guevara wouldn’t exist because he was born in the late 1920s. In this timeline if you’re a historical person born after 1920 chances are you don’t exist. An anti-imperialist wouldn’t find any power to fight for Canada/Southern/Caribbean independence from the U.S. due to complete lack of outside support, and prosperity weakening independence support.
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