Timeline Idea and Challenge: British Colonizing BOTH India and China

[Advernt]

Here's a challenge , a plausibility check and a TL idea floating around in my mind. With a POD of 1625 , is there any possibility for the English / ( Or more plausibily , the British) to achieve the following two pre requisites:

1:Exerting the Same Level of Control over the Indian Subcontinent as in OTL 1850 +

2: Ruling China either directly , or at the very least via a puppet Emperor of China or any arrangement in between.

By China , I mean China proper, excluding Xinjiang , Manchuria , or Outer Mongolia , Qinghai or Gansu , though the British may control parts of these provinces , or even the vast majority of it , either through local intermeditaries Ala via the Princely States analogue , or directly on the level of say , Bengal after the BEIC dissolved.

Can the British achieve such a feat by 1900 at latest , and hold on to both regions for at least 50 years?

 

[tallwingedgoat]

I suppose Britain can back the Taiping Rebels and through some very creative wheeling and dealing, have a puppet Taiping emperor in place for a few decades. Hard to see how this could last though.

 

[ninebucks]

I suppose Britain can back the Taiping Rebels and through some very creative wheeling and dealing, have a puppet Taiping emperor in place for a few decades. Hard to see how this could last though.

The Taiping wouldn't be very stable puppets, on account of them being absolutely insane.

 

[tallwingedgoat]

The Taiping wouldn't be very stable puppets, on account of them being absolutely insane.

Well he only asked that it last 50 years.

 

[Rex Britanniae]

Well, India is already done in OTL, so as long as nothing major changes there, that can be counted as completed. For China, you do not need such an early POD. In 1625, the Ming still held China, albeit under increasing pressure from the Manchus.

Furthermore, I doubt that a British occupation of China is not possible until the late nineteenth century, and in that case, it would require a division of China, for even if Britain gets the most, the other Western Powers would desire a part of it.

 

[Susano]

And lets not forget the reason why this did not happen IOTL: The USA. The USA would need to be either considerably weaker and/or without access to the Pacific so it cant if necessaryintervene in China...

 

[Renida]

A possibility

Let's assume GB in 1800 abandons it's policy of trying to concentrate production in the main isles, but instead bases it's colonial hold on importing the best talents to England and exporting skilled but not so important workers, noblemen (mainly as governors who help develop the territories), and so on.

The elite of the different countries gets positions in science, politics, and so on, and thus helps stabilise the Empire from London. English interests are held up by the English emmigrants. Development aid, trade agreements, and so on are further means to keep the colonies in line. Miltary force is still used as much as IOTL, but in different situations.

English people are exported all over the world. Especially in sparsely populated lands, people from other countries are invited to settle, as IOTL, but maybe even more so.

Control from London is held up by a system of Lordship, which favours only slow changes in power, the monarchy (which might even be strengthened to that end), and a few inbalances which are promised to be reduced over time. The one or other reform, like an (at the beginning) rather powerless Commonwealth parliament, help reduce unrest.

To reduce any unwanted influence towards England, it's made a priority to convert people to the Anglican Church (affecting Ireland, too), the European secular believe system besides that, British values, a British sense of who's considered good and who's considered bad, and so on. Thus, decisions from Indian and other colony politicians are usually in line with English thinking and rarely stand in the way of English interests.

It is also made a priority to make people mix throughout the empire, to increase the spread of the English language, to more easily replace local affiliations with English patriotism, and so on.

The first result of such a policy is a much faster industrialisation of the Empire. That would make the empire much stronger, and also much more attractive to less developed countries. Furthermore, more wealth would increase military might, increase gained territory, decrease lost territory, and so on.

The 1812 war against the US would already be won much more decidedly, though, for simplicity's sake, not completely - a slightly larger Canada, less US expansion, and so on.

With a more distributed production, the Empire would be much less affected by any blockades, thus can concentrate some more ressources on other developments, which would help in any land warfare GB gets involved in.

I assume France fares as IOTL, but as GB is more powerful, it can afford taking the Bretagne, thus gaining another foothold in Europe, besides Hanover. With a continued balance of power politics and strongly increased growth, even European countries think about joining the Empire - and some do, though not all peacefully.

As neither France, nor the US, nor Russia, nor any other part of the world are now any match for the UK, it continues its colonial policies into China and Japan. let's assume Japan manages to resist and China not (similar to OTL). Let's assume people in China feel economic and other improvement with England gaining more and more control.

China should easily be under English control by 1850 to 1875, and it should be easy to keep it that way for a while - though increased nationalism and liberalism, and some help from still competitive countries like the US, Russia, Italy, France, and so on, might lead to a similar drifting apart as in OTL in the 1920s and 60s.

 

[ninebucks]

The Russian expansion to the East is stronger than OTL, instead of staying north to avoid confrontation, Imperial Russia spreads forth in every direction.

As result, the Russo-Manchu border conflicts start earlier, and are more ferocious. The Treaty of Nerchinsk is never signed, and Russia maintains hopes of conquering China.

In around 1640, the Russians advance on Shengjing and depose the Qing emperor. The Russian Tsar usurps the position of Chinese emperor, just as many invading forces had done before him.

This sees the start of a prosperous Russo-Chinese personal union, a new border is drawn up, one that strongly favours Russian advances into northern and western China - meanwhile, the Chinese Empire concentrates on expanding southwards. The capital is moved to Nanjing, and Tibet, Burma, and parts of Indochina. At about the same time, England has started to move into the Bay of Bengal...

For much of the 1700s, English India and Russian China, (while the English are running India quite directly through their corporations, China is still pretty much run by Chinese, the Emperor is a white man sat in Moscow, but his court is staffed two-to-one by native Chinese, and aside from a few European experts, the civil service and the merchant classes are Chinese), compete within the Bay of Bengal. There is a fairly clearly defined border between the two, zig-zagging due north from a point roughly half-way in the middle of OTL Bangladesh.

In 1846, Russia falls to a liberal republican revolution. The Tsar flees to Nanjing, but many of his immediate family chose instead to seek asylum in other European capitals, especially London and Paris. The situation in Nanjing is tense, everyone fears a Russian invasion, (the Chinese, at this point, have almost no independent military force to rely upon). While Northern China prepares for war, Southern China is neglected, the previously well-administered rule of law begins to evaporate and piracy begins to take hold in Canton and Indochina. Meanwhile, on the other side of the peninsula, the Burmese (among others) are taking the oppurtunity to fight for their independence. England, meanwhile, is sweeping up all the East Indian profits.

At around the same time, the first born daughter of the aging Chinese Emperor falls in love with the young heir to the English throne. And shortly thereafter, the first born son of the aging Chinese Emperor gets himself killed in an opiate-fueled scrap in an underground Parisian social club.

In 1852, the English king is assassinated by a deranged republican. His young heir and his Russian wife ascend to the throne. In 1855, the Chinese Emperor finally dies. The major powers of Europe assemble to discuss what to do vis a vis China, there are three options on the table: do nothing and let the Chinese handle themselves, (this is unfavoured as many point to the bizarre and dangerous social movements arising in China), follow the letter of Russian salic law and hand the Chinese throne to the deceased Emperor's oldest surviving son, (this is unfavoured because the Emperor's oldest surviving son is considered a nincompoop and a deviant), or, hand the Chinese throne to the King of England, whose claim through his wife, is, arguably, the strongest. The great powers decide on the latter option, mostly because they feel that the economically liberal, free trade-orientated English will be able to stabilise the Sino-Bengali traderoutes.

The English do not disappoint. The copy the system they have been using in India and send a governor to Nanjing, along with a considerable army presence. Shortly thereafter, they grant independence to the Burmese, (most of the Burmese... the highlands are maintained, but, in return, the Burmese are given control over much of OTL Siam, which, in TTL, didn't manage to so skillfully maintain its sovereignty). Indeed, the English do much to downsize China, rebellious nationalities are given their independence, and the lords of unprofitable provinces are given much more independence, essentially becoming Chinese Princely States. The remaining British China is a patchwork of governorates stretching from the coast to the Bay of Bengal.

Over the next century, the two hostage nations advance significantly. Railroads are established to help extract resources more efficiently, and, as the populations become more educated, increasingly complex industries are established, the patchwork pattern of direct control and vassalage has expanded hugely, stretching outwards from the core territory of East India and South China, all the way, uninterrupted, to Central Asia.

(This, of course, doesn't last untill the end of the 20th Century...)