These Hills Sing of Saxon Kings
- Thread starter Thermopylae
- Start date
As have I. So much of what we think of as being distinctly "English" would not have come about. It's England, but not in the way many woluld think of England. I suppose it's all relative.
Ah! So Poland becomes a part of the HRE, then? Thank you! THIS will prove to be VERY interesting... Anything else? You seem to have a large knowledge-base concerning the time period...
And what of the Teutonic Order? What would their place be in an HRE that extands to the eastern edge of Poland?
Very good work Thermo.
I liked the anglicised Scots names, the fact that you remembered that without King John, Hull would be called something different (same goes for Liverpool and King's Lynn) and the butterflies in Europe.
Now looking forward to the map
Actually, calling it Myton was an accident on my part. To be perfectly honest with you, I had no idea that "Kingston-upon-Hull" even existed.
I just needed a good raiding site for those Scots. Then I somehow stumbled upon the town's etymology, and found out that the earliest name (Post-Roman) was "Myton". Yeah, the butterflies are beginning to rear their ugly heads three centuries into the timeline, and it's annoying the hell out of me. With Coronation of the Hun, I was basically free to make up my own history. Not so with Saxon Kings...
And do you have any ideas for how the lack of a Hundred Years' War might affect England and France? I for one see a far stronger monarchy in England in the coming centuries (although this may be tempered by the presence of the Witan), and in France, only thing I can think of is that unification (as we know it) happens a lot later, what with the fact that the crown doesn't seize huge swaths of territory as IOTL, and (arguably) the lack of a HYW would hinder the creation of a pan-Gallic "French" identity.
Pertaining to the map: Alas! It's difficult to find out the internal divisions of the HRE at this time. Currently on my map most of the HRE is a single blob. Which I suppose isn't all that bad. I can still put it out there...
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Thande
Donor
Well, King John funded the founding/expansion of three important English towns: Kingston-upon-Hull (commonly abbreviated just to Hull these days), Liverpool (there is a much older, but smaller, settlement across the Mersey called Runcorn - perhaps you could have them build this up instead of having a Liverpool) and King's Lynn, previously just called Lynn.Actually, calling it Myton was an accident on my part. To be perfectly honest with you, I had no idea that "Kingston-upon-Hull" even existed.
That seems very likely. Perhaps 'the idea of France' will mean something different in geographic terms this timeline (is the Inevitable Kingdom of Burgundy going to show up?Thermopylae said:
)My advice is to put your best guesses on, and wait for one of the HRE-ophiles on the board to correct youThermo said:
El Map-o! AD 1366
Note that Masovia is out of the HRE. That's because Masovia was, historically, quite independent and was not properly incorporated until much later.
Questions: Internal divisions of the HRE?
Is Serbia still that large, or has it by this time fractured?
Note that Masovia is out of the HRE. That's because Masovia was, historically, quite independent and was not properly incorporated until much later.
Questions: Internal divisions of the HRE?
Is Serbia still that large, or has it by this time fractured?
it was the Chaos in eastern Europe following the Mongols of 1240's, combined with the Weakness of the HRE in the late 1200's/early 1300's that allowed the Order to expand.
Poland-Lithiania broke the order in 1410 OTL, which is within your next update, here a Stronger HRE, with it's support of the Hansantic League, May move sooner, to break the Teutonic Order's grip on the Baltic Trading.
OTOH I doubt that you are going to have a Poland-Lithiania, So the HRE may move to Strengen the Teutonic Order's control of the whole east Baltic coast [Prussia-Estonia].
They would do this to stop the Rus and the Orthrodox Church from taking the Coast.
As for the HRE divisions, Just go with euroatlas 1400, and add in the parts of Poland, controlled by your Kings. Anybody objects, tell them, It's the Butterflies.
Well, the HRE isn't SO much stronger. I suppose thus far the only major idfferences is that it was able to get on its feet a little quicker (the interregnum following the fall of the Hohenstaufens was shorter), and the Przemyslid Holy Roman Emperors were actually LIKED by the Church.
"Support of the Hanseatic League"? I'm not following...
"Support of the Hanseatic League"? I'm not following...
Thanks! Yeah I do try to make them detailed. I sort of have to, to keep track of the butterflies...
Viva El Mappo!
When did England get Edinburgh? Did I miss that?
Yeah, it was a part of the peace treaty between England and Scotland. England would get Cumbria, Ediburgh, and control of all the Scottish ports in Ireland on the Irish Sea.
Nice map - though some names might be helpful for those of us not up on medieval Eastern European geography.
(If I've got it right, the light red is the Premyslids' personal domain (Bohemia plus Austria) as opposed to the HRE proper (black), the various shades of yellow are Poland, green is the Teutonic Order and orange is Lithuania?)
Despite what some people have said, I can't see the Premsylid super-personal-union lasting - the Germans won't like being ruled by a Bohemian; the Poles really won't like being tied to a state dominated by Germans and the Bohemians will be keen to maintain the distinction between Kingdom and Empire in case the next Emperor is a German (or even a Pole). Given that the Polish and Bohemian crowns (as well as the HRE) are elective, sooner or later one of them is going to be given to a rival claimant - if only to ensure that Poland and Bohemia don't get absorbed by the HRE.
As I understand it, the main reason Ottokar didn't get to be Emperor OTL is that the Electors didn't want a strong monarch with his own powerbase who might centralise the Empire and reduce their authority. Now the Premsylids are in, do they try and rein in the Electors, or are they content to be titular overlords with little authority and less land in the HRE proper?
What's happening in Italy? The Pope may be buddies with the Emperor, but that won't make the Italian cities any keener on Imperial rule - particularly after Wenceslaus's house-cleaning in Rome. If the French kings haven't got the HYW to keep them busy, do they make a play (possibly with Italian help) for the French-speaking Imperial territories in Burgundy/Provence/Savoy? The Italian Wars could be starting early.
(If I've got it right, the light red is the Premyslids' personal domain (Bohemia plus Austria) as opposed to the HRE proper (black), the various shades of yellow are Poland, green is the Teutonic Order and orange is Lithuania?)
Despite what some people have said, I can't see the Premsylid super-personal-union lasting - the Germans won't like being ruled by a Bohemian; the Poles really won't like being tied to a state dominated by Germans and the Bohemians will be keen to maintain the distinction between Kingdom and Empire in case the next Emperor is a German (or even a Pole). Given that the Polish and Bohemian crowns (as well as the HRE) are elective, sooner or later one of them is going to be given to a rival claimant - if only to ensure that Poland and Bohemia don't get absorbed by the HRE.
As I understand it, the main reason Ottokar didn't get to be Emperor OTL is that the Electors didn't want a strong monarch with his own powerbase who might centralise the Empire and reduce their authority. Now the Premsylids are in, do they try and rein in the Electors, or are they content to be titular overlords with little authority and less land in the HRE proper?
What's happening in Italy? The Pope may be buddies with the Emperor, but that won't make the Italian cities any keener on Imperial rule - particularly after Wenceslaus's house-cleaning in Rome. If the French kings haven't got the HYW to keep them busy, do they make a play (possibly with Italian help) for the French-speaking Imperial territories in Burgundy/Provence/Savoy? The Italian Wars could be starting early.
Nice map - though some names might be helpful for those of us not up on medieval Eastern European geography.
(If I've got it right, the light red is the Premyslids' personal domain (Bohemia plus Austria) as opposed to the HRE proper (black), the various shades of yellow are Poland, green is the Teutonic Order and orange is Lithuania?)
Yep! Actually, the Duchy of Krakow is also in the Przemyslids' personal domain, along with, probably, the Duchy of Greater Poland (Wielkopolska). I just wanted to differentiate them. But now I can see I should have just colored them the Bohemian red.
But the Austrian nobility SUPPORTED Ottokar. In essence, they WANTED to be ruled by a non-German. Although I do agree, when trouble strikes in Bohemia, Austria and Poland will be the first to go.
I'm thinking that with the death of this Przemyslid things are going to get a little hairy in the HRE. Not quite sure how yet, but I have the feeling. Oh, and I ensured the Bohemian position in Poland by eliminating the strongest of the Piasts (what's that one? Wladyslaw the Elbow-High?). Another counter-weight shall come about, but not for now.
The Przemyslids aren't stupid, they are basically content with their lot as HRE. They have firm control on the Archbishoprics' votes, plus their own, which basically gets them the HRE every time.
You know, I hadn't thought of that. Very interesting! I'd be interested in hearing your ideas...
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Well, they backed him against Rudolf of Hapsburg (who was also an outsider, from their point of view). I'm less sure that the Bavarians, Swabians, Saxons, Bandenburgers & points North and West will be so keen on the Empire of the Germans being ruled long-term from Prague.
So they're basically letting the princes be supreme in their own domains in return for not rocking the boat (which is pretty much what the Hapsburgs did OTL)? That stabilises things in the short term, but it means the HRE will fragment politically as it did OTL. In particular, the Hansa will effectively be running their own show in the Baltic, while places like Oldenburg & Munster may get drawn towards Flanders - or even France.
Also, your set-up with the three archbishops plus Bohemia supporting a pro-papal dynasty looks a whole lot like 1618. The Archbishops may give votes, but they don't give the Emperor-elect an army to knock dissident princes into line. And if the Przemyslids lose their papal support - look out! (If the situation lasts into the fifteenth century, the Hussites are going to give the Emperor fits).
Now you've put me on the spot!
I'm no expert, but AFAIK Imperial rule (as opposed to nominal overlordship) over the western border of the HRE didn't survive the Interregnum. Provence became a French fief in 1246 (ruled by a cadet branch of the French royal family, the French kings eventually inherited it), Burgundy was split between the Duchy (French) and the County (HRE), Savoy and Monteferrat were technically HRE vassals but de facto independant.
Meanwhile in Italy, you've got Wenceslaus marching into Italy in 1311 (the time of OTL's Henry VII), squishing the Roman factions and restoring papal authority. This is going to panic the Florentines (historically anti-imperial) and is unlikely to please the other free cities in Lombardy and Tuscany either. So does Wenceslaus repeat his father's strategy in Germany and only ask for nominal submission? If so, the Guelphs and Ghibellines will go back to squabbling among themselves, with the added wrinkle that both sides are likely to oppose any attempt by the Pope to expand his secular authority northwards. If Wenceslaus tries to knock heads (and he may not have an option, if anyone takes it on themselves to oppose his march), then we get the more usual split of anti-Imperial Guelphs vs pro-Imperial Ghibellines, with the difference that the Pope is aligned with the Emperor (at least until the Guelphs get to him, or get their own Pope). Wenceslaus was smart to send the Pope back home before anyone could set up an anti-pope in Rome, but he (and his successors) can only guarantee a pro-Imperial papacy with a garrison in Rome, and that isn't going to be popular in the long term.
Meanwhile, since the Aquitaine-Champagne axis appears to have splintered, the Kings of France have a reasonably stable country, a strong economy (in the fifteenth century, France was much the richest state in Europe, without the HYW, it'll likely happen earlier) and just over the border in Italy the rich cities of Lombardy and Tuscany are either under very weak Imperial control or actively opposing him. A proto-Francois I might find it all too much to resist. (If you really want to mess things up, have the French "protect" a group of dissident cardinals, who declare the "puppet Pope" deposed and elect their own...)
Of course, if you don't want the French mesing with the Empire, there's always Spain. OTL both England and France intervened in the Castillian civil wars in the mid-14th century - if England is out of the picture, do the French impose their own candidate and if so, do we see a French-Spanish axis against the Empire?
One final thought - with no Angevin Empire in your timeline, there's no Battle of Bouvines, so does Otto of Brunswick ever lose the Empire and does Frederick II ever get it?
<sigh> So many PODs, so little time.
True. Which is why I said, things are probably going to get hairy with the next Przemyslid Emperor. All it will take is for one slip-up.
Who else was particularly powerful in the HRE at the time? I'm thinking Wittelsbachs. They had, IIRC, the Palatinate and both Lower and Upper Bavaria.
Yeah, that's basically the plan. Way I see it the fate of the HRE was set in stone (more or less) with two events: Canossa, and the Thirty Years' War.
I doubt the situation will last even that long. I'm thinking that by round about c. 1380s/90s the Przemyslids will have largely fallen from grace. Although, you're right, in order for the Przemyslids to fall like that they would have to lose Papal support.
I was thinking that the King of Bohemia wages war on the Teutonic Order? The Pope wouldn't like the most powerful monastic order in Europe getting attacked, by Przemyslid or anyone.
*evil smile*
Thought so. So I should go ahead and adjust the map?
An excellent observation.
Which would, in effect, turn all Ghibellines into a different shade of Guelf. A dicey situation for his Imperial Majesty.
So you're saying go back and revise? I have no problem with that, I just want to see if I'm reading you correctly.
Ooh! Me likey! Excellent suggestion!
I'm not so sure. This would probably alienate France more than anything else. He'll have a hostile HRE, and perhaps even a hostile England, and Spain.
Castilian civil wars? I COULD butterfly those away, but I really see no divergence from OTL. Alt-Henry of Trastamara would still get the aid of the French king, and assert his claim over the Castilian throne.
Or are you thinking Peter gets France's support ITTL?
Otto still gets X-comm'd for trying to restore Imperial authority in Italy. The alt King of France and alt Pope, like their OTL counterparts, still push the electors to elect someone else in Otto's stead. That person is still Frederick II.
Now, because Otto doesn't have to deal with troubles in France as IOTL, he is a far greater opponent for Frederick II. So Frederick II goes to the English king, Albert I. Albert I normally would have wanted to stay out of it, but as it turns out Albert I was looking for a way out of the Holy Roman Empire itself (the Counties of Holland and Hainaut were English). So Albert, in return for the release of Holland and Hainaut from the Empire, provided military assistance. It was off by a year or so, but Frederick II, with the help of Albert I's England, triumphed over Otto IV of Brunswick.
Does that explain it?
I hope you guys enjoy it, I've been really wracking my brain over this one!
Question: Since the HRE rules over Poland, would Poland be considered a part of the HRE? Or would it be ruled separately?
I was wondering if the Saxons, annoyed by the constant Scottish menace to the north, wouldn't want to embark upon a war of annhiliation - something akin to Willian the Conqueror's harrying of the north? Wreck the Scottish economy so much that most of the population is depleted - might be easier to do now that the Black Death has arrived.
Which would make sense since the link between the countries is broken - i actually like this idea
Isn't France still fractured ITTL? Despite the splintering of the Aquitaine-Champagne axis the various duchies/counties appear to be de facto independent, much like the various parts of the HRE. In this situation the kings of France will have more pressing matters to attend to at home, rather than interfering in Spain or Italy
Butterflies raging on Castile
No divergence? You are forgetting that both Henry of Trastamara and Pedro the Cruel were descendants of Leonora of England by way of her daughter, Queen Berenguela of Castile. And, as Leonor was the daughter of Eleanor of Aquitaine and Henry Plantagenet, which does not occurs in TTL, Alfonso VIII of Castile would have had to have found a different wife!
Not that there can't still be a castilian civil war, but with different players! Still, it's not going to be the same as OTL-Castilian civil war.
No divergence? You are forgetting that both Henry of Trastamara and Pedro the Cruel were descendants of Leonora of England by way of her daughter, Queen Berenguela of Castile. And, as Leonor was the daughter of Eleanor of Aquitaine and Henry Plantagenet, which does not occurs in TTL, Alfonso VIII of Castile would have had to have found a different wife!
Not that there can't still be a castilian civil war, but with different players! Still, it's not going to be the same as OTL-Castilian civil war.