Pretty much, in hindsight it was the right decision as Italy as excellent defensive terrain and Kesselring, with help from a lot of stupid Allied decisions, turned it into a real meat grinder. A more rapid Allied advance up Italy has major butterflies for the rest of Europe!
The Whale has Wings
- Thread starter Astrodragon
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Pretty much, in hindsight it was the right decision as Italy as excellent defensive terrain and Kesselring, with help from a lot of stupid Allied decisions, turned it into a real meat grinder. A more rapid Allied advance up Italy has major butterflies for the rest of Europe!
marathag
Banned
How did the McNair/Devers clash over the Role of Armor and Anti-Tank theory work out from the Battle of France, the 1941 maneuvers, and the DAK getting thumped, go?
Is Devers still at Armored Force, and will TDs/AT Guns be separate, or Divisional assets like they were before McNair?
Is McNair still the director of all army training, as OTL, and have created Tank Destroyer Command, that would eventually have 80 battalions?
Some say that the real winner of the 1941 Louisiana Maneuvers was McNair, since he was the Maneuver Director and had his thumb on the scale of the rules, like tanks couldn't 'destroy' an AT Gun unless driven over, couldn't be shot or MG'ed, while AT guns just had to 'fire' under 1000 yards for an instant kill. Over 70 percent of all tank 'kills' were from AT Guns during those maneuvers.
Which he then presented to General Marshall that the answer to the Blitzkrieg threat was mobile AT guns and Tank Destroyers, in an Individual command, that he himself was most qualified to lead.
General Devers was quoted "We[Armor] were licked by a set of rules"
usertron2020
Donor
But logic would dictate that the Po River would force the Germans to defend well to the south of the Alps, requiring something like the Gustav Line. Germany's problem is that the more territory they cede without a fight in Italy, the further north the Allies can set up strategic bomber bases, threatening not just Ploesti but targets in Southern Germany as well that are too far from the UK to safely hit.
I'm pretty sure that AD has declared the drivers in favor of Devers have been strengthened ITTL, but not enough to do more than produce perhaps a few independent heavy tank (Pershings) battalions (1) in France by mid-1944. That, and a lot more and earlier Easy Eight Shermans.
1) Most likely to be used as "fire brigades" in critical defensive actions, like the SS armored units were in France and Russia OTL.
Judging by Devers' appointment as 6th Army Group Commander Marshall must have come around to the idea that Devers was right.
Assuming it's the one I'm thinking of, you were one of the first to buy and read the book of it. You can't have hated it that much
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While the Americans of course can hold their own exercises, the British, French and Canadian tankies really aren't that impressed.
They have actual warfighting experience.
Up until about now, the British/Canadian tanks are good enough a TD isn't needed. There are AT guns, of course. But a TD isn't much cheaper than a tank, and O'Connor et al would rather have the flexibility. One thing war in the desert teaches you is the importance of efficiency in your supply and maintenance chain.
You will see a TD once the Tiger appears, probably using an existing chassis, but that's to deal with a specific threat until better Allied tanks appear.
Fortunately the flawed US doctrine wont be too dangerous, there are plenty of Allied tanks around. The bigger worry is commanders.
Fredendall is still around.
So is Mark Clarke.
They have actual warfighting experience.
Up until about now, the British/Canadian tanks are good enough a TD isn't needed. There are AT guns, of course. But a TD isn't much cheaper than a tank, and O'Connor et al would rather have the flexibility. One thing war in the desert teaches you is the importance of efficiency in your supply and maintenance chain.
You will see a TD once the Tiger appears, probably using an existing chassis, but that's to deal with a specific threat until better Allied tanks appear.
Fortunately the flawed US doctrine wont be too dangerous, there are plenty of Allied tanks around. The bigger worry is commanders.
Fredendall is still around.
So is Mark Clarke.
usertron2020
Donor
Assuming it's the one I'm thinking of, you were one of the first to buy and read the book of it. You can't have hated it that much
Actually, I was curious to see what major differences there were from the TL, which the OP openly declared would be seriously modified. Turns out, so far that has been true. The publisher/editor of the ebook must have at the very least told the OP something along the lines of a certain AH.com British member/critic who recently posted that he couldn't recommend that TL, due to the OP's issues with all things American. Said poster instead posted that he highly recommended instead for a similar but much more believable (as in "a rising tide raises all boats") ATL called The Whale has Wings written by some notorious coffee addict.
I'm not kidding.
What are you talking about? You're all over that TL as a poster, and as damn near a borderline fanboy of it that I've been world-class surprised and pleased at not only the quality of your TL (your skills as a writer are pretty much a given by now) but most of all by its extreme level of fairness to non-Imperial Allied nations. If you really wanted to write a TL mirroring that other one, the entire USN carrier force (along with the 1st US Marines) would be wiped out by now.
I'm not kidding.
Aug 10
The current RAF offensive against the industry of the Ruhr is temporarily halted when the Germans start to jam the Gee navigational system used by the bombers and in particular the Pathfinder units. The force has made plans for this eventuality, which involved more concentrated use of the elite Pathfinders to mark the targets; the experienced Pathfinder crews are more capable of accurate navigation than the typical bomber crew. This will also involve the use of preliminary incendiaries as well as the dedicated marking flares, in order to help guide the main bomber stream to the target.
While losses in aircraft have been heavy, the campaign so far is seen as a success. While it is estimated that German production has only been decreased by 7% (a figure which detractors of the campaign see as too low for the effort involved), it has been pointed out that the Germans had estimated a 10% increase in the same time period.
Aug 12
Prime Minister Churchill arrives in Moscow for talks with Stalin. The main points are that there is no possibility of an invasion of France this year. However Allied forces are building up in the Mediterranean, and an invasion of Italy is 'imminent'. With the successes in the Far East, the full resumption of the Murmansk convoys (which have been operating at a lower level due to the diversion of supplies and ships to the East) will be resumed from September.
Stalin complains that this is far too little, and that the Soviet people are being left to carry the burden of the war against Germany. Churchill points out that the US still has very few troops in Europe, and that amphibious invasions are limited by availability of shipping. This does not satisfy Stalin.
The USN light cruiser USS Cleveland demonstrates the effectiveness of the radio-proximity fuse against aircraft by destroying three radio-controlled drones with four proximity bursts fired from her 5-inch guns in Chesapeake Bay. This successful demonstration convinces the Joint Chiefs to order mass production of the fuse.
Aug 13
Fierce fighting rages along the approaches to Stalingrad. The German Sixth Army, led by General Paulus, has forced the Soviet Sixty-Second Army out of the large bend in the Don some 50 miles from the city, but the Russian's stubborn resistance has so far prevented the Germans from crossing the river. Paulus is also being held up at Kletskaya. He is short of men and is waiting for Hoth's 4th Panzer Army from its abortive sortie to the south. Paulus is also unhappy that his lack of mobile forces has allowed too many Russian soldiers to escape East.
Meanwhile, Soviet radio announces that the defences of Stalingrad grow stronger every day. This does little to reassure the Allies, who are expecting Paulus to bridge the Don at any moment. Instructions are sent by courier to the secret negotiating team in Sicily to make preparations for a quick conclusion if necessary. Training for a contested landing in Italy is also intensified.
The Italians themselves are well aware of the threat only a few miles off their Southern coast. While the immediate area has been reinforced and fortifications are being strengthened as fast as possible, their problem is that the complete control of the sea, and the ability to cover their naval forces in the air allows a landing to be made at any point their enemies deem suitable. As a result, most of the Italian Army has been moved south, with the more mobile formations held just south of Rome.
Aug 17
The RAF conducts the first use in anger of the Moonshine radar countermeasure system, which allows a single aircraft - in this case a modified Blenheim bomber - to simulate a much larger force. It was trialled to protect a USAAF 8th Air Force raid on the railway yards at Rouen in France with considerable success. This was the first all-American bombing raid over Europe (albeit with cover from RAF Spitfires). All the planes returned safely, including the one carrying Major General Eaker, their commanding General.
It is hoped that the use of this aid and changes in tactics will allow full resumption of the air campaign against the Ruhr very soon. The USAAF is also building a considerable force of the new Mustang fighter, and once some experience has been gained over France, it is hoped to coordinate RAF and USAAF raids over Germany itself.
This attack not only marked the entry of the American heavy bombers into the war over Northern Europe, but also gave the American pilots the opportunity to test their theories of daytime precision bombing under war conditions. They believe that their Fortresses, bristling with half-inch machine guns, can beat off fighters by the defensive fire of their high altitude formations. The RAF, having suffered heavy daytime bombing losses earlier in the war, is still sceptical.
German progress in Russia continues as they cross the Kuban river in the Caucasus. The Joint Chiefs are growing more worried at the possibility that a German breakthrough may cause a Russian collapse, and General Wavell is informed that, no matter the result of the secret negotiations taking place, he is to plan for an invasion of Italy no later than the end of the month. Wavell protests that such a short timescale is quite impossible, and finally gets agreement of the end of September as the 'final' assault date.
The current RAF offensive against the industry of the Ruhr is temporarily halted when the Germans start to jam the Gee navigational system used by the bombers and in particular the Pathfinder units. The force has made plans for this eventuality, which involved more concentrated use of the elite Pathfinders to mark the targets; the experienced Pathfinder crews are more capable of accurate navigation than the typical bomber crew. This will also involve the use of preliminary incendiaries as well as the dedicated marking flares, in order to help guide the main bomber stream to the target.
While losses in aircraft have been heavy, the campaign so far is seen as a success. While it is estimated that German production has only been decreased by 7% (a figure which detractors of the campaign see as too low for the effort involved), it has been pointed out that the Germans had estimated a 10% increase in the same time period.
Aug 12
Prime Minister Churchill arrives in Moscow for talks with Stalin. The main points are that there is no possibility of an invasion of France this year. However Allied forces are building up in the Mediterranean, and an invasion of Italy is 'imminent'. With the successes in the Far East, the full resumption of the Murmansk convoys (which have been operating at a lower level due to the diversion of supplies and ships to the East) will be resumed from September.
Stalin complains that this is far too little, and that the Soviet people are being left to carry the burden of the war against Germany. Churchill points out that the US still has very few troops in Europe, and that amphibious invasions are limited by availability of shipping. This does not satisfy Stalin.
The USN light cruiser USS Cleveland demonstrates the effectiveness of the radio-proximity fuse against aircraft by destroying three radio-controlled drones with four proximity bursts fired from her 5-inch guns in Chesapeake Bay. This successful demonstration convinces the Joint Chiefs to order mass production of the fuse.
Aug 13
Fierce fighting rages along the approaches to Stalingrad. The German Sixth Army, led by General Paulus, has forced the Soviet Sixty-Second Army out of the large bend in the Don some 50 miles from the city, but the Russian's stubborn resistance has so far prevented the Germans from crossing the river. Paulus is also being held up at Kletskaya. He is short of men and is waiting for Hoth's 4th Panzer Army from its abortive sortie to the south. Paulus is also unhappy that his lack of mobile forces has allowed too many Russian soldiers to escape East.
Meanwhile, Soviet radio announces that the defences of Stalingrad grow stronger every day. This does little to reassure the Allies, who are expecting Paulus to bridge the Don at any moment. Instructions are sent by courier to the secret negotiating team in Sicily to make preparations for a quick conclusion if necessary. Training for a contested landing in Italy is also intensified.
The Italians themselves are well aware of the threat only a few miles off their Southern coast. While the immediate area has been reinforced and fortifications are being strengthened as fast as possible, their problem is that the complete control of the sea, and the ability to cover their naval forces in the air allows a landing to be made at any point their enemies deem suitable. As a result, most of the Italian Army has been moved south, with the more mobile formations held just south of Rome.
Aug 17
The RAF conducts the first use in anger of the Moonshine radar countermeasure system, which allows a single aircraft - in this case a modified Blenheim bomber - to simulate a much larger force. It was trialled to protect a USAAF 8th Air Force raid on the railway yards at Rouen in France with considerable success. This was the first all-American bombing raid over Europe (albeit with cover from RAF Spitfires). All the planes returned safely, including the one carrying Major General Eaker, their commanding General.
It is hoped that the use of this aid and changes in tactics will allow full resumption of the air campaign against the Ruhr very soon. The USAAF is also building a considerable force of the new Mustang fighter, and once some experience has been gained over France, it is hoped to coordinate RAF and USAAF raids over Germany itself.
This attack not only marked the entry of the American heavy bombers into the war over Northern Europe, but also gave the American pilots the opportunity to test their theories of daytime precision bombing under war conditions. They believe that their Fortresses, bristling with half-inch machine guns, can beat off fighters by the defensive fire of their high altitude formations. The RAF, having suffered heavy daytime bombing losses earlier in the war, is still sceptical.
German progress in Russia continues as they cross the Kuban river in the Caucasus. The Joint Chiefs are growing more worried at the possibility that a German breakthrough may cause a Russian collapse, and General Wavell is informed that, no matter the result of the secret negotiations taking place, he is to plan for an invasion of Italy no later than the end of the month. Wavell protests that such a short timescale is quite impossible, and finally gets agreement of the end of September as the 'final' assault date.
usertron2020
Donor
If anyone wants to see Stalin's reaction to the British providing TOO much help, check out Cymraeg's TL "The Other Empire Strikes Back"
Now here's our chance to see Astrodragon's version of a somewhat more anemic Case Blue thanks to the Royal Navy's exploits ITTL.
I would suggest that perhaps the biggest problem for the Italians is collapsing morale. Military, civilian, AND political. That the Italians will melt away faster than a snowball in Arabia I have no doubt, but short of a successful storm on Rome I can't see the Italians holding off vengeful Germans long enough to prevent an overall Italian collapse. Not that ITTL the Italians won't do a heckuva lot better than OTL. Probably a much larger force of organized Italian troops going over to the Allies, no real "Republican Italian Army" to speak of, a better organized Royalist government in areas that come under Allied control, maybe a larger proportion of a much more reduced (ITTL) Italian Navy gets away.
The only thing I have a problem with is with the possible level (high or low) of enthusiasm of Italian soldiers shooting at Germans they were allied to the day before. I know it happened OTL. But IIRC, such actions were mostly brief, or futile, outside of those near where allied support was available.
Believe me, I understand the advantage of co-ordination of strikes between Bomber Command and the USAAC. The problem is, if you do something like the concentrated strikes over Hamburg by the British, and the USAAC follows by day, you are advertising to the Luftwaffe that the daylight strikes are coming, allowing them to concentrate their defenses against unescorted bombers and turn what had already been slaughters into annihilation.
They have every right to be skeptical. The early models of B-17s had almost as many vulnerable blind spots as British bombers. Even to the end, the B-17 was always vulnerable to attacks from head on (though if I were a Luftwaffe pilot closing in on a B-17 in a Me-262 I'd want my flight insurance maxed out
Too many American bomber generals were determined to prove Billy Mitchell, their idol, to be 100% right in his predictions. Mitchell was a visionary in many things, but he was blinded to the realities of interceptor warfare (and for that matter, naval warfare, including carriers).
Oh God, is poor Wavell being left with the baby again?
Magnificent update. Its great to see you have your muse back.
EDIT: I just realized: ITTL the Italians are NOT making the mistake they did OTL. Namely, when they were about to collapse and surrender, they were in the act of strengthening their alpine defenses. It was THAT straw that broke the camel's back for Hitler regarding Italy's true intentions.
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Am I correct in thinking TTL's Spitfire's has some heavy modifications for extended range?
Even if this is the case I think its days as a bomber escort are numbered and it's only a matter of time
before a dedicated high altitude long range fighter enters production as an analogue to the Mustang.
Even if this is the case I think its days as a bomber escort are numbered and it's only a matter of time
before a dedicated high altitude long range fighter enters production as an analogue to the Mustang.
They are using the Mk8 a lot now, for longer raids.
So far they have mainly been in the Med
I have just had a flash of insperation for a POD/Butterfly from the begging of this Dragons tale. Arthur Dowding, Sir Hugh Dowdings younger Brother was promoted to Rear Admiral in 1936, having served as captain on HMS Furiuos and a spell as Admiraltiy liason at the AM. If instead of vice admiral Andrew Cunningham being made responsable for the Fleet Air Arm in 1937 ArthurDowding is then the possibilities of co-ordinated devlopement of the FA and Fighter Command are almost a given anf ITTL when Dowding is set to investigate Bomber Command and all aspeccs of RAF deployment he will have unfettered access to FAA ststs and results!!!
usertron2020
Donor
Yeah, the Imperial Germans collapsed and Germany signed the armistice long long before they were in a situation as desperate as that of Italy IOTL in WWII. And here ITTL they are even worse off. And if you take Hitler out of the equation (via a successful Valkyrie) the coup plotters would have done the same for Germany in WWII.
For Germany to have "politically collapsed and melted away" against the Western Allies in this equivalent situation as Italy's would have meant say most of the Rhineland and some of East Prussia being lost.
It's not exactly theatre, but there are a number of groups with different agendas, from sticking with Hitler till the bunker, to surrendering unconditionally then joining the allies. Its a mess.
Wouldn't be too hard to do if they had been. According to Jeffrey Quill's autobiography Spitfire: A Test Pilot's Story they did actually modify a Mk XVIII with an extra 75-gallon tank in the rear and a bob-weight to help with centre of gravity changes, on the test flight with drop tanks he was able to take it from southern England all the way up to Scotland and back whilst at only 1,000 feet or less the whole way. That would have apparently put Berlin within range of them as an escort fighter. Not sure why they never went ahead with anything like that. Only things I can think of are that once the whole the bomber will always get through theory was shot down in flames and they switched to night-time raids it wasn't a necessity, later on a combination of obstinacy and the US taking over day-time raids meant it was still seen as not needed, and then by the time things start to change the P-51 is there to fill the slot. IIRC the Americans even tried experimenting with a pair of Spitfires over in the US cramming in as many extra fuel tanks as possible to extend the range of them and try and encourage the RAF to do the same.
I've actually been wondering recently what the results might have been if the RAF had long-range escort fighters - earlier Merlin engine P-51s, extended range Spitfires, domestic design something similar to the P-51 like the Martin-Baker MB.5 etc. - coming into service at roughly the same time as the Lancaster was starting to be delivered. The big stumbling block would be Arthur Harris as AOC-in-C of Bomber Command, from doing some reading on the strategic bombing campaign he seems to have been wedded to the idea of area bombing even after advances in navigational aids and the creation of units like the Pathfinders made targeted raids more achievable, even going so far as to use get-out clauses in his orders to effectively ignore them and carry on hitting the cities. Will probably start a thread on it.
AIUI, the Spitfites fitted with that extra fuel tank behind the cockpit had some very nasty handling problems related to shifting center-of-gravity depending on the fuel state that were never solved, though the perceived lack of an operational requirement OTL, combined with the pending arrival of the Merlin P-51 meant that it wasn't enough of a priority to get sorted out.
Incidentally, the Mustang also had some nasty handling quirks related to center-of-gravity issues when the rear fuel tank was completely or partially full- I've even seen some claims that it was possible in some situations to induce a sudden roll in a P-51D with gas in the rear tank if the pilot opened the throttle too far too abruptly- that issue was believed to be responsible for a number of crashes on take-off.
usertron2020
Donor
Quite so. From Italian troops in Sicily surrendering by the regiment to Fascist diehards escorting Benny the Moose up the Alps trying to escape to Switzerland. I wonder what the Swiss would have done had the Italian partisans not stopped Benny?
Maybe the memories of the Blitz and his near inability to respond in kind at the time motivated him towards vengeance?
If I have read Quills comments correctly, The long range spitfire was not that bad, Though in his opinion it was essential that the rear fuel tank was empty and the traveling Trimming bob weight locked before any combat manouvres were undertaken. My reading of his comments was that this was acceptable as the tank would be used for the warm-up, take off, climb and intitial criuse to the combat zone and therfore would in SOP be empty and neutralised before combat. The Americans had also modified a couple of Spifires and flew them across the Atlantic (not sur the actual flight distance but enough to prove the Spitfire could be given long legs) Despite this ACM Portal was having none of it and in his book the Spitfire could nether be a long range escort!!!
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