Hello everybody here is my first AH published here,

I really wanted to write an alternate history about Burgundian inheritance, but after i started working on it I saw that it was close to The Land of Wine and Beer : a Franco-Burgundian TL.However, there isn't the same point of divergence; here it's in 1477. After the death of Charles of Burgundy, Louis XI will focus more on diplomacy and will succeed to convince Burgundians to conclude the planned wedding between his son and Mary of Burgundy. Since it looks like The Land of Wine and Beer, I discussed with DracoLazarus before to explain that my AH will be different and I didn't want to think that I plagiate his work and asked for his agreement to post my AH, and he accepted as long as there are real differences, which you will see progressively in this history. (for example a harsh buterfly effect for Austria, a quicker war, a diplomatic wedding) Here the PoD will be focused in a diplomatic move.


Chapitre I Return of Burgundian apanage

Louis Xi often asked himself this question. If Charles le Hardi died before him, what should he do ?

But today was a different day, the death of the duke of Burgundy had taken place, and the future of France would be dictated by his choice.

During many decades, Louis XI had protected his kingdom from his opponent rival Charles le Téméraire. This fight between the two members of the House of Valois was a conflict between two opposite kinds of rulers. The Duke of Burgundy was a chivalrous monarch and represented feudality. Meanwhile, Louis XI was the king of bourgeois that would inspire Machiavelli and be called the universal spider, or evil genius. In the beginning Louis XI was a turbulent prince, but he was already working in his field and with the time he became more and more patient and even the Milanese admired his talent for diplomacy as he patiently harassed his opponent.

The French king knew that his army, even if it was strong, couldn't really take on the Burgundian Duke alone, but he also knew the weakness of Burgundy, because he had lived some time here when he run away of his father, so he funded Burgundian opponent helped by the Duke's attitude that pissed off many people. Alone le Téméraire fighted day after day against revolts, Swiss, et caetera, and after many battles, tired, the Duke died miserably at the door of the Nancy who was going to offer him the Duchy of Lorraine and the title of King that he always wanted.

But unfortunately for Louis XI, it wasn't over, what will happen ? Charles had one daughter, Marie of Burgundy, that will inherit of all his territory, and he knows that she wants to marry with Habsburg King of the Romans Maximillian, that will thus become Emperor, it would be disastrous, he will lose surely definitively territory in French field, and get a new opponent stronger than before, so he needed to take his territory back with the help of law. Charles le Téméraire, that should have respected the king of France for his territory in France, was never a good vassal, as everybody knew, so he could launch a posthumous process against him and confiscate its land. That would give him casus belli to take back his French territories and get that much stronger to fight the Habsburgs, but he also thought of another idea. If Mary of Burgundy married his son Charles, the two prosperous realms would merge and become a prosperous and stronger kingdom that would not fear any permanent threat, the problem being that Burgundian people and Mary would not accept unless he managed it really well. He could persuade Burgundians to accept his wedding and let them persuade Mary to make the right choice, as along the course of many decades he had learnt, during those decades he had woven its web, which this time crushed his opponent. But it could be more, he could weave his web longer and add the Burgundian possessions in his field by this wedding

But he had to be careful, it could not work, these possession could split apart and France would be threatened again so he should also take back some territories to weaken the duchy of Burgundy in the future and to help with negotiation.


Here will start the PoD, that will happen in the next chapter. For now, you just saw him take his decision.
 
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Marie of Burgundy is 12 years older than the King of France, we could have the earlier son of Louis the Spider to survive instead for the marriage to happen or for Marie to marry the Duke of Guyenne and bump of the young king Charles due to the duke of Guyenne pulling a Richard III.
 
In fact in OTL Louis Xi wanted it but didn't really work about it he prefered worked focus on military conquests and his diplomat totally failed, but this project was planned so it could happen yes Mary of Burgundy is really old But the benefits compensate that, in nobilty marriage with huge age gap could happen frequently, it's not perfect, but for Louis Xi it will better that let Austria took Burgundian land.

it will be explain later in this TL, but Mary will not really have the choice don't forget that in OTL she was almost prisoner of Gand people
 
Hello everybody here is my first AH published here,

I really wanted to write an alternate history about Burgundian inheritance, but after i started working on it I saw that it was close to The Land of Wine and Beer : a Franco-Burgundian TL. However, there isn't the same point of divergence; here it's in 1477. After the death of Charles of Burgundy, Louis XI will focus more on diplomacy and will succeed to convince Burgundians to conclude the planned wedding between his son and Mary of Burgundy. Since it looks like The Land of Wine and Beer, I discussed with DracoLazarus before to explain that my AH will be different and I didn't want to think that I plagiate his work and asked for his agreement to post my AH, and he accepted as long as there are real differences, which you will see progressively in this history. (for example a harsh buterfly effect for Austria, non intervention in the Spanish conflict, a quicker war, a diplomatic wedding) Here the PoD will be focused in a diplomatic move.


Chapitre I Return of Burgundian apanage

Louis Xi often asked himself this question. If Charles le Hardi died before him, what should he do ?

But today was a different day, the death of the duke of Burgundy had taken place, and the future of France would be dictated by this choice of his.

During many decades, Louis XI had protected his kingdom from his opponent rival Charles le Téméraire. This fight between the two members of the House of Valois was a conflict between two opposite kinds of rulers. The Duke of Burgundy was a chivalrous monarch and represented feudality. Meanwhile, Louis XI was the king of bourgeois that would inspire Machiavelli and be called the universal spider, or evil genius. In the beginning Louis XI was a turbulent prince, but he was already working in his field and with the time he became more and more patient and even the Milanese admired his talent for diplomacy as he patiently harassed his opponent.

The French king knew that his army, even if it was strong, couldn't really take on the Burgundian Duke alone, but he also knew the weakness of Burgundy, because he had lived some time here when he run away of his father, so he funded Burgundian opponent helped by the Duke's attitude that pissed off many people. Alone le Téméraire fighted day after day against revolts, Swiss, et caetera, and after many battles, tired, the Duke died miserably at the door of the Nancy who was going to offer him the Duchy of Lorraine and the title of King that he always wanted.

But unfortunately for Louis XI, it wasn't over, what will happen ? Charles had one daughter, Marie of Burgundy, that will inherit of all his territory, and he knows that she wants to marry with Habsburg King of the Romans Maximillian, that will thus become Emperor, it would be disastrous, he will lose surely definitively territory in French field, and get a new opponent stronger than before, so he needed to take his territory back with the help of law. Charles le Téméraire, that should have respected the king of France for his territory in France, was never a good vassal, as everybody knew, so he could launch a posthumous process against him and confiscate its land. That would give him casus belli to take back his French territories and get that much stronger to fight the Habsburgs, but he also thought of another idea. If Mary of Burgundy married his son Charles, the two prosperous realms would merge and become a prosperous and stronger kingdom that would not fear any permanent threat, the problem being that Burgundian people and Mary would not accept unless he managed it really well. He could persuade Burgundians to accept his wedding and let them persuade Mary to make the right choice, as along the course of many decades he had learnt, during those decades he had woven its web, which this time crushed his opponent. But it could be more, he could weave his web longer and add the Burgundian possessions in his field by this wedding

But he had to be careful, it could not work, these possession could split apart and France would be threatened again so he should also take back some territories to weaken the duchy of Burgundy in the future and to help with negotiation.


Here will start the PoD, that will happen in the next chapter. For now, you just saw him take his decision.
Here you go. I may have changed a bit the sentences here and there, but mostly it's spelling, punctuation and tense mistakes being removed.
 
Chapter 2 Cursed be this evil king

Force in presence :


Portrait of Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy
ah_cha10.jpg

source : Rogier van der Weyden, public domain --> Lupo

Resume : The Duke of Burgundy, Charles le Téméraire was a perfect prince knight, both in virtues and flaws. He spent his life trying to create a kingdom, a state, a nation but failed. His policy, increasingly aggressive, as a bull attracted by the red flag, annoyed everyone : his enemies, his allies, his states. After his death, a conflict broke out since the duchy of Burgundy is in trouble and many want to profit of it.

Portrait of Mary of Burgundy, Duchess of Burgundy
ah_mar10.png


Source Michael Pacher(disputed), public domain --> PKM

Resume : Marie de Bourgogne, daughter and successor of Charles le Téméraire. She have little influence and was confronted with the dissatisfaction of many people in his countries. Very unpopular, she got monitored by the Scabini Flandriæ (Flanders' parliament) that wants to reduce her power, while in the same time she must deal with the French invasion. She was under the influence of the four councilors that work for their own interest or others. Maximilian, the futur King of the Romans, and her liked each other and want to marry in order to create a futur powerful realm



Portrait of Louis XI, King of France
ah_lou10.png

Source anonymous, public domain --> Il Dottore

Resume : The King of France and nemesis of Charles of burgundy. He was one of the leading actors in the defeat of Charles le Téméraire. Being a genius diplomat, he took advantage of the weakness of the Duchy of Burgundy, he launched an offensive and claimed the French possessions of his former rival. However, he wants above all to manage a wedding between duchess of Burgundy and his son to unite both territories. He has great influence in the Burgundian estates.


Localisation : Ghent, actual seat of the four members(Scabini Flandriæ)

Cursed be this evil king! was surely a sentence that recently crossed the thoughts of many people of Ghent regarding the king of France. Indeed, after the death of Charles le Téméraire they naively thought they could put an end to his absolute monarchy that only brought war, tax, conflicts. His successor was his daughter, Mary of Burgundy, and her control over Burgundians estate was weak, she was a woman without husbans, her possessions were going through lots of trouble, the French frightened her. This was the perfect time to ask more rights, before she consolidated its power and got wed. So when their ruler came here to search the help of Flanders' parliament they decided to take profit of it. She was kept under monitoring after she summoned the Estates General in order to give them more rights.

They easily planned that Louis XI would bring them some problem, they knew they could lose some territories in a war against him but for them it was just minor trouble. The time that a new monarch linked to holy roman empire take the power and they didn't give too much attention to him. Charles never ruled a country, these estates could work together really easily, but people, nobles, Bourgeois never really felt united except for few times, but now it was turning against them.

It wasn't a war it was just a peaceful conquest. Louis XI managed easily - really easily - to take Artois, the people of the city of Arras knew that nobody could help in time, in addition in this city some important people were loyal to the French and others were brought by money, promise, posts, and such, and like this the county was lost, while the Estates of Burgundy would still need some time to gather all people, especially because many figure come here, and worse during these time Burgundians important advisors were fighting each other about succession problems. Even worse, they didn't have any army prepared and in the best of cases almost one quarter of them work for French.

No, for them the best solution was to send again an ambassador to try to solve the problem diplomatically, just losing some territories would not be bad, especially if it weren't their possessions, and in the worst case it will make them gain sometime. Louis XI answered quickly and frankly, that he would send his best diplomat to settle all their problems together, but in counterpart he asked them not to make any move without him, or else he would see this like a betrayal and go to war against Burgundy. Cursed be this evil king ! thought again some Ghent people.

This asking made many people laugh hollowly. Everybody knew that they were already in war, but Louis XI just used law for now, technically it wasn't false, after all he only took back French territories because Charles hadn't respected his duty of vassalage, and since nobody really resisted his argument stood. It was a dubious reasoning under a even more dubious casus-belli, however it was still a valid one, but it only give him rights on French territories (West of the Schelde/Escaut), and now he was looking for any reason to go further and intervene in Ghent's diplomacy, but they didn't have any allies because of their execrable last Duke's diplomacy. The only two that could really help them are the English king - whose last invasion had lasted a mere few days, just long enough to ask for a rent, and everybody knew that he would not go in war against Louis XI; he would maybe launch an invasion, but just ask for some money and go quietly in England to profit of his pension - and the Maximilian that Mary of Burgundy wanted to marry, the problem being that he will surely became emperor and have an even higher authority than Charles le Téméraire, he will use Burgundian wealth to pay his debt, it would mean a new vicious war against France and it will take him some time to come back. No they were forced to make peace so they accepted. However Ghent people still send a letter to discuss about maybe a wedding between Mary of Burgundy and Maximilian of Austria to keep their back safe if Louis XI asked too much or didn't want that Burgundian estate to get more autonomy.


Unfortunately for them they found that two of the father of Mary of Burgundy's most influential councilors, the Chancellor Hugonet and Sire d'Humbercourt worked with the French and asked for an wedding between Mary and the Dauphin - the future Charles VIII - and they could not make anything against them, Ghent bourgeois even prevented the crowd from killing them not to anger Louis XI just before negotiations and give him a casus belli to intervene much deeper. Worse it made many Flemish people angry, letting almost be killed two important and well liked nobles of their county wasn't a good idea and it gave a little more prestige to Louis XI in Flanders. This increased the gap between the city, Ghent estates and the rest of Flanders, and when some Guelderian diplomats send by the cites to ask Liberation for Adolf von Geldern, they accepted especially because many councilor pushed for it. In this sense though they would win a new supporter and made him march against French army that became too greedy for them, but the outcome was awful. He refused. Worse, his behavior showed that he was in favor of an French policy. Yes, cursed be this evil king.


Louis XI diplomat took eons to come to Ghent and during this time they couldn't ask any concession from Mary of Burgundy. Yes they promised not to do that, but since diplomat took his time and that during this time Eude, Boulogne and duchy of Burgundy were captured, they wanted to confront him with a fait accompli. But they didn't have enough support, the damn Estates didn't take any decisions and just waited for the French diplomat to talk with him, and during this time many important people of Burgundy come there to discuss about future negotiation and behaved weirdly, some like diplomat sent by duke of Cleves that would normally act against Louis XI and support them because the duke wanted to make a wedding between his son and Mary of Burgundy, but no these diplomats were pro-French and it wasn't the worst. Philippe of Clèves was one of the general that could go in war against French armies was forced to stay here to fight against French influence he was one of the four councilors that Mary listened with his mother and the two traitor. Ghent became more and more isolated and they felt like something of big would appear something really big but they didn't have time to change their policies. Worst of all, Maximilan didn't answer to his message and now according to a messenger the diplomat finally arrived in Ghent outside of doors.

It was chapter 2, in chapter three we will see french point of view and Louis XI's diplomacy.

Tank you DracoLazarus for your proofread
 
Marie of Burgundy is 12 years older than the King of France, we could have the earlier son of Louis the Spider to survive instead for the marriage to happen or for Marie to marry the Duke of Guyenne and bump of the young king Charles due to the duke of Guyenne pulling a Richard III.

Even 13.

But since this is alternate history, it is still to have The Dauphin Charles be born 10 years earlier.

However, it is still very unlikely to have France and Burgundy reunited before a time of transition.

My favourite would be Louis of Orleans having married Mary of Burgundy instead of the barren Joan of France in 1476.

They have a son by 1477 or 1478. Let's call him Charles.

Charles VIII of France died in 1498 as OTL. Liuis of Orleans becomes Louis XII as OTL. And his son Charles of Orleans/Burgundy, the new Dauphin, marries the young widowed queen Ann of Britanny (born in 1477).
 
Yep but don't forget it will be an arranged wedding i just will say one thing Charlotte of Savoy married Louis Xi when she was nine

And yes difference of age will bring problem and it will change Louis Xi diplomacy to have papal support and an exemption The difference of age will also bring problems on the succession and Charles VIII will have only few children with her ... also their wedding will not be celbrated early because Charles is too young. Therefore it will part of this AH

Personally i don't want too many points of divergence this will bring too much problem.

Yes France and Burgundy will not be reunited early, it's for that Louis Xi still launch his attack he want reduce burgundian power, as long that Marie of Burgundy survives Burgundians states will be separated of France and therefore french king will only have a little access to them resources.

Don't forget Louis XI want unite the possessions of the valois it's for that he make marry Joan and Louis of Orlean to end the dynasty of Orleans.

Don't forget the wedding between Mary and Charles VII was often envisaged it's not something that appears from nowhere.
 
Even 13.

But since this is alternate history, it is still to have The Dauphin Charles be born 10 years earlier.

However, it is still very unlikely to have France and Burgundy reunited before a time of transition.

My favourite would be Louis of Orleans having married Mary of Burgundy instead of the barren Joan of France in 1476.

They have a son by 1477 or 1478. Let's call him Charles.

Charles VIII of France died in 1498 as OTL. Liuis of Orleans becomes Louis XII as OTL. And his son Charles of Orleans/Burgundy, the new Dauphin, marries the young widowed queen Ann of Britanny (born in 1477).

This is one of my favourite POD, next to the one I used for my TL with Louis VIII and Eleanor of Brittany...
I have even long-time hesitated wich should I use but finally the age of crusades and invasions won.

I will follow this TL as well with great interest. A very good start!
 
Thanks Ciniad and aegis03florin

This is one of my favourite POD, next to the one I used for my TL with Louis VIII and Eleanor of Brittany...
I have even long-time hesitated wich should I use but finally the age of crusades and invasions won.

I will follow this TL as well with great interest. A very good start!

you will laugh but for me it was the opposite i also hesitated about this both periode. I wanted to make an AH with Louis VIII king of England and France but i lack of information in this periode and therefore the time of intrigues and national construction won :)
 
Thanks Ciniad and aegis03florin



you will laugh but for me it was the opposite i also hesitated about this both periode. I wanted to make an AH with Louis VIII king of England and France but i lack of information in this periode and therefore the time of intrigues and national construction won :)

That's really funny!
So... I'm watching you :)
 
Chapter 03 : Weave its web further


ah_lou10.png

Portrait of Louis de Bourbon-Roussillon aka "le bâtard de Bourbon"

Source : Anonyme, public domain --> Reliavech

Resume : The illegitimate son of Charles I of Bourbon, he was at the origin of the illegitimate branch of Bourbon-Roussillon. It is known that for his many services rendered to the State, Louis XI granted him in 1466 the dignity of Admiral of France. He also became governor of Dauphiné. He is one of the first knights to receive the necklace of the Order of St. Michael. He was one of with Commynes that inform him that Ham and Saint-Quentin would surrender without discussion.



ah_phi10.png

Portrait of Philippe de Commynes

Source : Jacques Le Boucq, public domain.
Resume : Counselor and Chamberlain of Charles le Téméraire, until he became Counselor and Chamberlain of Louis XI. Flattered by the King's attention, Commynes gave him secrets and precious advice which helped Louis to extricate himself from the very delicate situation in which he had placed himself. Louis XI finally named him the seneschal of Poitou. He has kept a certain tenderness for Mary and is in favor of the solution of royal wedding.



ah_jea10.jpg

Face of Jean de Bourgogne

Source : Statuts, Ordonnances et Armorial de l'Ordre de la Toison d'Or, public domain --> Jimmy44

Resume : Jean de Bourgogne, count of Nevers and Rethel. He fought loyally for Philip the Good but met frictions with his heir, Charles le Téméraire, and rallied to Louis XI. Inducted Duke of Brabant with the support of the French king he couldn't maintain himself to this post but kept to use this title. He sold the county of Eu to Charles the Bold in 1477.


Localisation : Nevers

These last day was really stressful and tiring for the King of France, his plan was really ambitious but if he succeed it would be a great opportunity for the crown.

When he heard about the death of Charles le Téméraire he didn't react immediately, but fortunately for him he was already prepared, during the war between Burgundians and Swiss he had created an army of 20,000 men to start a war with his rival. So he didn't need to search for men they were already here and he wanted take profit of it.

Everything was going to be a matter of speed. He needed to act as quickly as possible and in the same time to incapacitate Burgundian possessions.

He asked to Louis (Ier) de la Trémoille and Charles d'Ambroise (two of his captains, the former commanding in Barrois and the latter in Champagne), to prepare for an intervention in the duchy of Burgundy. He also had the Bourbon bastard to lead an attack in the north and try to take Picardy and Artois.

Commynes soon started bothering Louis XI about Burgundy and asked the King to be more kind with Mary. As such, he was sent in Flanders to seek some firm ground to base his assumptions on. At least he would let the King in peace here. Louis XI also sent Robert Gaguin and Henri Hisbuch, two of his diplomat, in the HRE in order to try to prevent Maximilian of Habsburg from receiving support from individual members of the diet.

He also sent Pierre Doriole, his own chancellor, to negotiate the continuation of the peace of Picquigny with Edward IV of England, and in passing to receive the oaths of vassalage in Picardy. That was but the official reason. He was also to send support to the brother of Edward, George duke of Clarence, that was trying to conquer the throne, and to the Scots. The goal was evidently to make any intervention precarious for the king of England.

He sent a message to his parliament in Paris to claim possession of the property of Charles the Bold, on the grounds that he had not fulfilled his oath of vassalage. (Lèse-Majesté) After sending these order he decided to launch his plan. With a small company, he gallops to Nevers to obtain help, knowing who could help him.

When he came here with a small group, nobody recognized him, for one thing because everybody thought that he was in Picardy to try and take control of Artois. The main reason though was his outfit, Louis Xi always chose poor outfits and disdained the royal entries so it was hard to recognize him even with his royal escort so when people saw a few knights entering in the castle of their duke, they didn't react and thought it was linked to the death of Charles the Bold. And they were right.

Jean de Bourgogne, count of Nevers and Rethel, used to be a loyal supporter of Phillipe the Good, but hated his son Charles the Bold, with whom he had had words, after Jean chose to serve his king Louis XI and fight with him against the League of the Public Good, and was one of his most devoted servant. Louis XI never forgot this and even tried to give him support to claim duchy of Brabant.

So Louis came there for a good reason. Jean would be his support towards the great nobles of the duchy of Burgundy, and Nevers will be his base of operation for his diplomatic conquest of Burgundy.

Discussion with Jean was pretty useful and he learnt many thing about other nobles that were important in the duchy of Burgundy. However, he would need some eastern support, since he didn't have any authority in these area and didn't had any support yet. It was one of problems that prevented a total union. Fortunately for him, he had a solution to change that. Adolf of Guelders was an important noble, respected in his duchy, that had been arrested by Charles le Téméraire and was forced to give up his title of Duchy to him. He was a good warrior and so could be really useful. It was the same for the duke of Kleve, Johann of Kleve was also a noble respected and good at military matters. Of course both are interested in a wedding with Mary of Burgundy to lead the Burgundian Countries. Fortunately Louis XI had a plan to change all that.

Louis XI had, during his reign, created an efficient and useful Post Office in his kingdom, and with that he could get informations really quickly. Furthermore, since it had a lot of rapid and well-organized horsemen, his service could also intercept some important letters. As such, it was one of his most important weapons.

He quickly learnt that many nobles in Flanders were favorable to him, especially two of them : the Chancellor Hugonet and Sire d'Humbercourt. Those men thought that Louis XI was an old king, easy to convince and turn around, and knew that, if they helped the king to gain the Burgundian estates, they would be greatly rewarded and would serve an even more powerful king. Furthermore, seeing that technically they were French vassals by their Flemish possession South of the Escaut, it wasn't even a betrayal for them. Their strong influence made them the main instigators of the rapid surrender of Arras and, helped by Commynes, they got a lot of support.


--------

Now he decided to launch the second phase of his plan, with their help he will send a formal letter that swearing on their honor that the Parliament of Flanders try to organize a wedding with Maximilian of Habsburg countersigned by two of the most influential councilors of the Burgundian states. In reality the conquest was not so simple, many news showed that few place in Boulogne resisted and some try to gain time, but Flanders people would not need to see this, so with the help of his advisor he manipulate the way of how people would perceive news to give the picture of a peaceful conquest and giving the impression that people were favorable to Louis XI which prompted the Flemish Parliament to send diplomats.

During this time Charles Ier D'amboise another of his general subjugate the duchy of Burgundy accompanied by Jean de Bourgogne-Nevers and his army and with the approval of the Parliamant of Paris. But thing were more complicated even if Charles Ier d'Amboise did an excellent job helped also by La Trémoille few subjects still rebelled that make him think that he should in future change the place of duchy of Burgundy parliament and give him to the city of Dijon that stay loyal to French.

He know that the conquest will not go further, noble of the palatine county of Burgundy clearly say that he did not have any right to go in there county and that they will stay loyal to Marie so they fortified their garrison and start to organize an army in case of attack, he also understand that now diplomatic actions should be launch, so when Ghent people send another ambassador he decided to answer in one letter that he would send his best diplomat to settle all their problems together, but in counterpart he asked them to not make any move without him, or else he would see this like a betrayal and go to war against Burgundy. The goal was in reality to prevent any move against him and it would work pretty well, his advisor already prevent several attacks to be launched and now it was too late for Flanders.

But the more fortunate day would be when his spies give him a letter send by the parliament of Ghent that ask help of Maximilian of Hasburg, quickly he send copy of this letter to many Burgundians noble to obtain their support, with that he will be see like the rightful king that work in respect of law and custom and Flanders parliament will be see like perfidious traitor. This event will seem discord, especially because with this Mary send one of his most beautiful jewel like proof of engagement but everything didn't work perfectly.

Marguerite of York the wife of Charles the Bold and considered as his own mom by Mary of Burgundy quietly escape of Flanders and go in Boulogne to organize resistance, try to go in Hainaut to organize wedding with Maximilian and go in England asking help of Edward to invade France. Fortunately one of his diplomat was already here, and now one of his most ardent opponent was gone of Burgundians estates.

But in case he asking to his diplomat in England to still work with duke of Clarence and Scottish to prepare a rebellion if Edward try to invade Burgundy or France, like this the problem should be solved easily, but for Maximilian it was too late, his army already started to prepare, and he send diplomat to prepare wedding with Mary a conflict will happen, but alone Maximillian would not be a great trouble, especially because Laurent de Medicis a good friend of Louis XI had refused to grant him credits.

With Jean he continue to work to get noble support even Louis de Bourbon archbishop of Liege and one of his former opponent join his side, thinking that an old king will be more easily influenced that the vigorous Maximilian that didn't have any possession for now, and secondly if he choose Louis Xi side this last will not support rebel in Liege anymore so for him it was a good solution. and the letter give him support of Kleve and Geldern duchy, with Flanders noble and with help of de bourgogne-Nevers duke most of noble and religious that was led by Louis de Bourbon will join his side.

Only the Burgher estate will be against him and some noble in Hainaut, Luxembourg (even if in these region they will be divided) in the palatine county of Burgundy and in some special case few nobles like Philippe von Kleve a great friend of Mary that will surely fight for her until his last breath. So he got a small majority helped by his promise to end of embargo against Burgundians estate and an access of French trade that will also bring some burger support so it could work especially because many are tired of Charles le Teméraire war.

So he finally choose to went in Ghent because after all the best French diplomat will be him, and he will not go alone he will be accompanied of Jean de bourgogne-Nevers.


The fact that Maximilian desperately start to launch an invasion and that Marguerite try also to get Edward launch an invasion should help him to be seem like a savior and he couldn't wait even if his advisor prevent Mary to choose Maximilian side until now but it became difficult and he almost complete his preparation.

and so in end of April beginning of May Louis XI finally reach Ghent and when he announces itself, it was a big shock, in beginning, they think that it was Jean de Bourgogne-Nevers the diplomat, but this last one was on the left of another man poorly dressed that make people laugh until some Flemish noble recognize their king.

This king let people dubious many people in Ghent dislike him he was one of their most fervent opponent and was described negatively by Burgundians elite, but some respected him because he make good things for burgher and he stay their king because Flanders was still technically part of French royalty, and he was also respected and fears for what he have make.

The universal spider wasn't really happy he would largely prefer the discussions of corridors and secret message that these large meetings, he know perfectly well that in this case people because pride would refuse some arrangement that they could make in secret. Fortunately for him he started negotiation with many people before this event and launch his web with his horseman and with that he get one step ahead, for now it was divided in three clan the most powerful was the pro-French party that want a franco-burgundian union, and make a strange union between the burgher king and noble, the second was the Dutch burgher estate, because most of his partisan come from, Holland, Zealand, Flanders, .... Mostly composed of burgher or some noble that defend Burgher it want more autonomy and was totally against an union because they fear Louis XI but are not really for an wedding with Hapsburg even if they feel that they are their last hope. The last one surprisingly not so weak was the pro-Mary part , composed of multiple loyal supporter like Philippe von Kleve heer of Ravenstein, Wijnendaele and Enghien but most of his support come from the free-county or palatine county of Burgundy, Hainaut, Luxemburg and some another place, and were for an wedding with Maximillian of Hapsburg

The discussion will be pretty difficult, because they get different agenda but for Louis XI the most important was to gain support of pro-Mary faction with them, burgher isolated could do nothing and Maximilian could never win the war.

When he come back for argue, problem start in beginning, he wanted to saw Mary of Burgundy but many wasn't for this, fortunately for him seen Marguerite was in England therefore the Chancellor Hugonet and Sire d'Humbercourt manage that an meeting happen by attend the meeting and witness this.

The meeting was pretty interesting, Mary of Burgundy was still against an wedding with Charles VII but pro-French party was the most influent and manage to get Marry in more favorable disposition.

She was still for an wedding with the successor of Frederick III , but she want almost all protect her realm. Well educated, she try to get the better wedding, but never fully accept this proposal still hoping that Maximilian will won the war


Fortunately both intelligent they could share some agenda for general estate, and Netherlands bourgeois will suffer the most of it.


They manage to kept some stuff, first Louis Xi wanted to kept French usage in Burgundians estates because it will improve French influence in future, and Mary wanted a common language to unite his realm. She was forced to abandon Gueldrian possession but it was not a big chock, Adolph of Guelders was already duke since his liberation she just acknowledge that and seen Louis Xi wanted an wedding she profit of it to profit of it to change a little fact.

Since Frederic III was busy to fighting Hungary and lost he didn't took attention of what will happened that will profit of France


Many territories was under Burgundians influence but it was just that, like duchy of Cleve, bishop of Ultrecht but they came for general estate and participate in debate, it will change nothing because they are link to duchy of Burgundy and have right to participate like Jean von Kleve member of the Order of the Golden Fleeceor or the bishop David de Bourgogne member of (Valois-Burgundy house). But it will imply that France will follow this line and could gave them casus belli in future.


She was forced to give many right to Netherlands parliament and abolished Great council of Mechelen unfortunately Louis XI refused to help her with that he didn't want a strong parliament against Paris, Louis XI didn't want give back French territories took and worst he supported that Jean de Bourgogne-Nevers will took the title of Duchy of Brabant but he assured her that she could kept Duchy of Limburg , that make her angry fortunately Louis XI was favorable that she could kept his right to launch war, marry, led tax because it would be a burden for his successor if Mary loose these right.

But Mary will not forget betrayal of Netherlands and loyalty of his meridional possession. And so discussion continued helped with Mary support Louis Xi manage to dictate this term and they saw many of these prerogative leave and come back in Mary hand that make them angry but they couldn't do anything, because they could still lose anything, fortunately they manage to kept the end of centralisation of Burgundy; General estate choose to acted wedding between Charles VII and Mary of Burgundy with accord of Archbishop of Liege even if she still refuse argue that Charles VIII is still too young, and asking more time to prepare a timetable agreement For a betrothal she know that Maximilian comeback with an army and manage to gain time.


But Louis XI was pretty confident Edward will still not move, and his diplomat manage to connect Scottish rebel with George duke of Clarence also Maxilliam didn't have claim and only a little army.


All his men was called to defend duchy of Burgundy and he manage to get support of some territories even if some rebel join Maximilian side, the Burgundians succession war will started or like some Burgundians chronicler was going to say the second act had just begun.

the_we10.jpg

source wikipedia, Marco Zanoli (sidonius)
change under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license.


In this chapter 03 we get the point of view of the french king and in the next chapter it will be the point of view of Edward IV of England
Tank you DracoLazarus for your proofread even if he only correct the first part before The dotted lines
Warning it's the french king point of view therefore not objective and we will see that he almost made a big mistake in the next chapter
And sorry for the wait
 
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Chapter 04 : a tribute or a pension ?

Portrait of Edward IV, king of England
ah_edw10.jpg



source : Scanned from the book The National Portrait Gallery History of the Kings and Queens of England by David Williamson, Reproduction of a painting that is in the public domain because of its age

Resume : member of the house of York, The first half of his rule is linked to the violence of the Wars of the Roses, but he overcame the Lancastrian challenge to the throne to reign in peace until his death, Cautious he often worked of the both sides of the fence as an occasional ally of Burgundy or France, Charles le Téméraire's death changed everything


Portrait of Pierre Doriole
ah_pie10.jpg



source : Château de Versailles, public domain

resume : Seigneur de Loiré-en-Aunis, french Chancellor, Accomplishes several missions in foreign countries, Louis XI. Often employed him in important negotiations. he received the homage of several cities of Artois in the name of Louis XI, he was send to the English court to gain English alliance and help rebel against Edward IV



For Edward king of England it become more and more difficult to avoid a decision during a long time he worked of the both sides of the fence as an occasional ally of Burgundy or France. But today he must make a choice at the center of his policies lay his wish to kept the French tribute and a tiny hope to protect the royal wedding project between his daughter and the son of Louis XI but in other hand he could not let Louis XI destroy the Burgundians state, worst the English alliance was sought by both side If he choose to help Burgundians and his sister he will lose the perspective of a great marriage, his tribute, a good part of the commercial prerogatives of the country, many disorders matched to a renewed French intervention in other side of the channel and he would be responsible for the breakdown of the Treaty.

For him these 50.000 golden crown received annually was really useful It had allowed him to emerge from the state of quasi-bankruptcy. Some will say that make him lazy and greedy. But to his credit it was necessary to know that not very much people was favorable to the war in his country. The worst problem was that England had no reliable husband to send to Burgundians that the duke of Clarence his brother a choice which Edward himself would not permit, they know that Louis Xi promises might be soon forgotten if he had achieved his ends in Burgundy and not longer had need of English support. But in other hand if he help French how powerful they will become ? Will they kept their benevolence long time before Louis Xi choose to act against him again ?

So the whole problem was discussed by a great council at Westminster in February, they know they not have the shortage to buy and paid mercenary troop England should not intervene directly the only think they will do, will be sent Hasting to Calais with 500 men to reinforce the garrison.

Soon later Pierre Dorriole French chancellor send by French king come to ask a prolongation of the peace offer, he even proposed a possible partition but Edward IV refused before beginning to negotiate.



Edward IV was often criticized blamed by many author and furnished with all evils flaws during his reign he was perceived for a long time as absolutely negative, some moderns author use even the term of black legend to describe how author treated him, especially because many of them seems agree that his behavior during the Burgundians succession war would be the cause of future English downfall, if he decided to help Burgundians maybe France would never inherit of these lands. if he joined Maximillian side he could get huge benefice and weaken France enough to become more powerful in a near future, or maybe he could accepted French offer to partition of Burgundy and acquire powerful and wealthy territories that will give so many money that England economy will grow exponentially and make a strong Franco-English alliance and two unrivaled powers[1].

But even if some of these criticisms are justified we should not forget that his reign was not so bad The second part of his reign, was a period of relative peace and security. He was less in need of parliamentary grants than his predecessors commercial treaties, he used external peace and internal order revived trade, benefiting customs duties and other revenues. Councils were set up to govern in the Marches of Wales and in the north. And concerning Louis XI they were not so far away. Totally in the reverse of the caricatured visions made of him. As a simple lazy fattened idiot who tries to appear threatening against the odious machinators Louis XI and this latter just throws away some pieces, food or wine to calm him down and make him enamored of gratitude{2], In reality Edward was a really threat to Louis XI during long time despite a less prosperous, less powerful realm and a more fragile reign, by example his diplomacy policy was well done, he allied with France and Burgundy and play on their rivalries to gain lot of thing, these 50.000 crown given annually[3] was a great help to English he permit Edward to be less dependent of parliament and help him to develop really well England, his treaty was really advantageous for English especially because he was signed after that Charles Le Téméraire refused to help him against French army in rupture of his accord, so alone with a weaken armies and without lot of support he could not make lot of thing this treaties was a good one. In reality the great loser of burgundy succession was Charles le Téméraire and it explain how one prosperous realm could be killed by one bad ruler. The problem was to contain France in this credit nobody could believe in this time that Mary of Burgundy will marry to the prince of France, they all though that Burgundians will join Maximillian and when they learnt it, it was too late.

So when Edward IV get the new intoxicated with rage he try to join the war culminated their armies could not win they will need another help he tried to find , it's showed by some letter correspondence miraculously found but, the duchy of Lorraine just fough a really harsh war they would not participate to another one, by a curious irony of sort Savoy was now pro-french[5], Swiss largely want Louis Xi destroy Maximilian of Habsburg armies, rest of HRE was not interested both winner would be bad for them, Spain could be an useful allies unfortunately they were more interested to end reconquista and to consolidate their union they didn't want to go in huge war for a thing they did not interest them really.

But not all the critic was false, his Court was really expensive, his conflicts blunted England, the parliament could not support to fund again English expedition because Edward already make this twice and these two time he asked money to parliament , dispended quickly and parliament get nothing back so there were mostly against a new conflict, he Did not solve the problem with his brother Cloarence who openly criticized him and sought to provoke further rebellions one of the reasons for its non-intervention Edward did not want to lose all his advantage for nothing Netherlands land didn't interest him and he surely not believe that Louis XI was serious these lands was really rebellious so even if he get it by treaties they will rebel soon and it will involve England in future conflict with the holy Roman Empire, so he stay and wait a better time and he loose his opportunity to act even the duchy of Brittany a great allies of England against Louis Xi could do nothing, Francis II knew that when he asked his help to the English he never get it in time[4] and some people of Brittany parliament was loyal to the French, Louis Xi was feared and he did not want fight against these both armies with little to win and lot to lose he wanted to wait when French royalty will get less authority maybe during the succession of French kingdom.

However in reality despite what many people think England and Maximilian armies get almost noone chance to win their armies was weaker, less numbered and they did not have huge amount of fund and nobody was interested to help them.

Many people seems to believe that Pierre Doriole was a huge diplomat that manage to Seduce the king by his good word but in reality Edward IV play with him to get the better deal and was in reality really worried about the fate of Marguerite of york but was abused by Louis XI diplomatic skill after the event he was forced to sign a useless peace with minor concession. Humiliated he would spend the rest of his life trying to consolidate his realm, these letter found long time after show that he was aware of Pierre Doriole second work to connected rebelled and Scottish against English king and was one of the reason that he did not join the war but he still took profit of it and after that he arrested his brother to put an end of rebellion but unfortunately he did not see that his other brother will make not against him but against his successor he did not see that he will took the power in the name of Richard III.

However despite this we must forget that the forfeiture was not caused by him. In reality he left a better kingdom at its end than at its beginnings, He crushed the House of Lancaster in a series of great military victories, and he helped to restored law and order in England the true beginning of English decline was more link to some of his successors especially seen that the true English downfall happened long time after his death.

[1] reference to the famous Alternate-history the Unrivaled powers

[2] reference to the series of caricatures : the lazy pig and the Machiavellian spider.

{3] reference to treaty of Picquigny signed in 1475

[4] reference to the public weal war.

[5] The regent Yoland of Valois was abducted by Charles le Téméraire in 1476 accused of secret alliance with the french king she was liberated by Charles d'Amboise that working for the french king after that she remains on good terms with her brother louis XI until her death.



preface of Edward IV from "modus et ordo" to lazy pig

In this chapter 03 we get the point of view of the English king and after infoormation of a modern historic source why ? Because many thing could be not appear if I chose the king's point of view and would take too much time to write, This makes it possible to see how this king would be perceived and gives clues for the future. Tell me if you liked this format or not :). in the next chapter we will finally see Maximillian in action :D.
 
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The first possible child between Mary and Charles can be born in 1484 and their child he can marry Joanna or Maria of Castile, a daughter of Catholic monarchs as an exchange for peace in Roussillon..and a daughter can marry the Prince of Asturias..
 
Yes it could be a good solution but I prefer to yet few years to see what effect my POD will make. But it stay a highly pausible option.
 
For now it remains the most feasible option a thing is sure France watch with interest the duchy of Britanny and they get lot of support in this duchy.
And knowing that the whole kingdom will push them[Charles VII and Mary of Burgundy] to have a child he would have children soon.
 
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