The War to End War......in 1825

This will be a long, broken up post.

We start, of all places, on the ice-strewn eastern coast of Kamchatka, in the 1730s.

Commander Vitus Bering, a Dane of some note who served competently in the Scandinavian War but did not seem destined for great things, is busily building the boats and assembling the crew and food he needs for his great eastern expedition.
10 years ago, he was commissioned by the Russian Government (Peter and fellows) to build and sail a few ships northward through the strait that now bears his name, and see whether Russia and America were connected by land or not. He made it far northward, and somewhat clearly showed the lack of a land bridge, but was not definite. Now, he was to embark on an even great mission - directly to the east.

So far so good: it takes a bit of searching, but all of these events have happened. In fact, in real-life, they made it to what would become Alaska, did a bit of trading, and washed up on the Aleutians. Bering died of scurvy, as did three-quarters of the crew: the rest build a new boat and sailed back.

What If: During the long winter, Bering was visited by Spandler, the man who would become the ship's doctor/physician. Spandler was in a bit of an upset, because Bering had not prepared any supplies of vegetables or the like. Bering argued that there was no room in the hold for a lot of spoil-able food. Spandler argued that carrying such foods would prevent many diseases. He even argued for bringing pine needles (!!!) aboard. At that, Bering finally relented. So, in spring, when the two big ships departed from the Kamchatkan Peninsula, their holds were filled with a variety of vegetables, and even barrels of pine needles (the crew made some bad jokes about it).

According to Bering's orders from the Russian Government, he was to first sail South-East for several weeks to try to find a supposed continent in the middle of the Pacific Ocean (maybe a badly garbled Australia? This is still real-life). Bering relented to these orders, and his hundred-some-odd men in their two boats sailed for over a week, until Bering was convinced that there was no big continent. Then, Bering ordered the ships to head east. After another week or so, they hit a big storm, and during the night, the two ships became separated (almost happened in real-life). Cherring (?), commander of the second ship, immediately ordered his ship to the north. They hit some of the Aleutians, and after interesting episodes involving gunpowder trading, canoe breaking, and the dumping of several barrels of pine-needles, they sailed back along the Aleutians. His ship arrived back at Kamchatka late in October, before the bitter cold. Cherring had established contact with some of the Natives, created a map of the Berring Sea and area, but had not had a successful mission.

The other half, Berring's half, arguably the better half, sailed on to the east, and even more south. The ship remained out of site of land for months, and there was almost mutiny, until Spandler pointed out that they had enough food (at which the crew eyed the pine-needles with distaste), and that in the absolute worst they would sail around the world and hit Europe, and then they would all be famous.

Anyway, in the middle of August, Berring finally spotted land. On the 17th, his ship dropped anchor and he put ashore a band of 68 men......just north of the Columbia River!!!

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It turned out that the natives here spoke a language similar to that in Alaska, which a few of Bering's men knew. Bering, with advice from Spandler, quickly established peaceful contact. A lot of trading went on between the Russians and the Natives, who the Russians decided to call the Ornomies (oar-gnome-ease). Even more fortunately for Bering, the crew did not mutiny when the supplies of alcoholic beverages ran out.

The ship was in bad condition, so Berring decided to stay for a few months. Meanwhile, relationships with the Ornomies continued to improve, despite a few nasty incidents with one or two of the crew, who were summarily killed (Bering was not overly-nice). Russian expeditions on the mainland followed the Columbia River (Peter's River) far inland, and a map was created of surrounding territory. Some of the Ornomies admitted to hearing about white men before, except from stories other tribes told them from the east. Bering rightly suspected the French, British, and Spanish. The Russians even got a fair-sized camp going right at the mouth of Peter's River (Spandlingburg). Unfortunately, a hard October storm damaged Bering's ship beyond repair.

Bering put his men to work that winter building two slightly smaller, but more structurally sound, ships. There was plenty of wood to use, and plenty of pine needles to eat (finally someone found a good recipe for them). Relationships with the Ornomies were strained at times, but generally remained good until the end. Bering's second lieutenant even turned their language into writing.

In March, Bering and men finally took off from Spandlingburg, after days of celebration with the Ornomies. They sailed along the coast, stopping occasionally to trade, and making a map the whole time. They finally arrived back in Kamchatka on September 5th. Not a single man had been lost to scurvy.

It took almost a whole year to re-cross all of Siberia to Saint Petersburg to tell Czar Peter all about their expedition, but when they got there, he was most pleased.........

:confused::);):eek::confused:
 
Interesting TL. But why Kamatchka?:confused:

Well, Kamchatka was where Bering left from in real life (I had to do a school project on him).

Anyway...

Peter the Great is amazed that there is so much untapped wealth, in terms of furs, lumber, other exotic plants, etc., in North America, just a reasonable (ish) sail away. Also, some of Bering's maps indicated that Peters River might offer a 'north-east' passage of sorts. If true, it would mean great wealth to whoever controlled it. Plus, it always seemed to Peter that the more people you ruled, if kindly, the better (case in point, all of the natives in Siberia in real-time).
In short, Peter gives Bering a charter, giving him all unclaimed land discovered in the new world, and making him territorial governor. Luckily for Bering, one of his crew members, who was known (in this time-line) as Ernikovich, happened to be a person in need of land and very persuasive. He travelled all throughout Siberia convincing people to come with him to the new world. He was a great propaganda person, telling them of the miles and miles of land, the great freedom of the new world, and the new center of the north that a re-established Spandlingburg would be. He was helped greatly by Bering's famous 1739 pronouncement that there would be no serfdom in New Russia - everyone would be free. Ernikovich got over a hundred people to come with him, and having learned from the pine-needle experience, got all but one to Peter's River in safety. They were forced at first to live by the Ornomies, but slowly they learned survival arts, especially those who hailed from Siberia.
Bering also sanctioned expeditions headed by other prominent Russians, who wanted to settle at different points along the coast. Some were successful, others not as much so, but Bering supported them all. He was very careful to treat all of the Natives kindly, trading whenever possible, and he tried very hard to limit alcohol (with some funny results).

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Anyway, by the 1750's, New Russia was an up and going place. There were scattered outposts along the Alaskan (Bering) Coast, with some towns numbering in the thousands. However, it was too cold to penetrate far inland there.
Not so in Ornomia. Spandlingburg had exploded in population, and was now a comparative metropolis with 13,000 inhabitants. Nominally, the whole of northwestern Canada belonged to Bering, but he was really only interested in Ornomia. Inhabitants lived all along the coast, in the mountains, and even stretched down to some hotter areas to the south. A new city, Vitusk, had been established nearer the headwaters of Peter's river. The total population was high in the 5 digits, and growing fast.
The astonishing growth of Ornomia brought Russia great amounts of wealth. By establishing the most cordial relationship with the Natives on the entire continent, Russia was able to get a whole lot of lumber and furs. It helped that Bering allowed no immoral deals with the Natives. In fact, the 'two' cultures (Russian and Native, although there were many varieties of each) were slowly blending together. In order to trade with mother Russia, there needed to be both a suitable mainland (Siberian) port for stuff to arrive at and a good transportation system back west of the Urals. Peter the Great worked on both. He ordered massive immigration to the Kamchatkan peninsula, and although many people were upset they did make a number of big ports. These had the added advantage of water trading to the south, with China and Japan (when possible, both were semi-isolationist at least). Also, rather than build an extensive canal system, or invest in the just-coming-to-frutition railroad, Peter, build only a select few canals, joining the major rivers, and a water-based economy developed all throughout Siberia along the Ob, Lena, and other big rivers.
Once all of these goods could reach St. Petersburg, the exotic stuff was traded throughout Europe, while the lumber was used for general construction and as fuel. This combination allowed Russia to begin to accumulate wealth, build up its army, and especially its navy. Peter also saw the success in New Russia of abolishing serfdom, and slowly began to consider the idea.

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Naturally, Russia's expansion brought it into conflict with the rest of the world, right? Not yet. Russia had two direct neighbors in the New World: France and Spain. France controlled Canada, but that was centered far FAR to the east, by Quebec and Montreal. Even the fur trappers did not reach New Russia often. The two countries quite amicably agreed that their common border in the New World was the Continental Divide in the Rockies. Spain controlled Mexico, but that was also centered to the South. There was more conflict between Russia and Spain, though. They made an arbitrary E-W line somewhere in California, and neither of them had significant populations near the other, but surely the issue was not settled. Russia saw that the power of Spain was waning generally, while an alliance with France might prove an effective balance to the rising star that was England. Neither of these observations seemed incredibly important to anyone, but they were.

Meanwhile, in western Europe and those pesky colonies in America things were heating up very similar to in real-time, at first.........

End of Part II:);):mad::confused::confused:
 
I'm a historian from a town 10 miles from Astoria, OR, the town that lies at what you call Spandlingburg.

I call BS.

The current city of Astoria has fewer than 13,000 people. There was a fort there for many years (established by the Americans, handed over to the British, then returned), but it had at maximum a population of a couple hundred.

Not to mention that finding the Columbia River, while possible, would be extremely lucky. Nearly ten expeditions passed right by the mouth of the Columbia River because its so difficult to find, and because its mouth is so treacherous to navigate.

If you want small, isolated fur-trading posts in the PNW, that's fine. I would recommend small forts at the OTL cities of Astoria, OR (as you have here) and Vancouver, WA (further down the Columbia). Then give it 20-30 years and have farmers settle in the Willamette Valley (Portland, OR, right across from Vancouver, and southwards), and Puget Sound (Seattle, WA area). No more than ten to fifteen thousand in the Oregon Country by 1800, and that's giving the Russians a lot of credit. That should still be enough to keep the Brits/Spaniards out, though. :)

Also, a better name for the Indians would be the Chinook (Russianized to Shinook, Shinuk?), as that was the name of tribe at the mouth of the Columbia.
 
Err...wasn't there fur, timber, and open space galore in Siberia as it was?

Agreed - the idea that lumber from 'Oronomia' would be sailed across the Pacific, landed at one of the many ports in Kamchatka (when did that become so habitable?) and then barged by rivers and canals across all of Russia to the Baltic (not an area known for it's lack of trees) so it could be burnt(!) in London or Paris seems a little incredulous... and the fur trade was concentrated more to the East of the Rockies than the West Coast (flatter land=easier for beavers to dam=more beavers to hunt=more furs for middle to upper-class Europeans - which Russia lacked in the big way Western Europe didn't so it didn't have a large home market) which was a lot closer to Western Euorpe via the Atlanitc than the other way.

I'm not knocking your idea for a strong Russian PNW presence, but you're going to need to work on the motivations of the Russians.
 
Not trans-Siberian

I like the idea of Russian presence in North America, but I doubt that there would be any overland shipping from Siberia Saint Petersburg. Much easier to end things by sea in this day and age.
 
and the fur trade was concentrated more to the East of the Rockies than the West Coast (flatter land=easier for beavers to dam=more beavers to hunt=more furs for middle to upper-class Europeans - which Russia lacked in the big way Western Europe didn't so it didn't have a large home market)

Agreed with all your statements but this...the fur trade was extremely profitable until well into the 1850s, and beginning in the 1790s in the PNW. The one thing beavers need for dams, is trees, quite plentiful in the Northwest and not so much on the Great Plains, and the PNW, I can assure you, is rather flat: the foothills of the Cascades are rather abrupt, and the land not particularly rugged.
 
Agreed with all your statements but this...the fur trade was extremely profitable until well into the 1850s, and beginning in the 1790s in the PNW. The one thing beavers need for dams, is trees, quite plentiful in the Northwest and not so much on the Great Plains, and the PNW, I can assure you, is rather flat: the foothills of the Cascades are rather abrupt, and the land not particularly rugged.

North of the Great Plains are the Boreal forests... stretching from Newfoundland to the Great lakes to the Yukon. Trapping may have been profitable in the PNW (the Hudson Bay Company had outposts on the Columbia river for fur-trading) but it wouldn't have been as much so as taking furs from the East and shipping them across the Atlantic, was my point. If anything, if Russian NorAm furs start showing up in London, tariffs and duties would be slapped on them to prtoect the British trade intrests.
 
First, to fenkmaster: I didn't know that the Columbia River started in Texas:),...but yes, I apologize.
To everyone else in the fur and wood debate, I will yet the debate run its course and assume for the sake of the TL that Russia found some use for the PNW. No, I do not know enough about the PNW, and will readily admit anything that is inconsistent or extremely illogical. However, I have to give the Russian's a lot of credit to develop the TL later on: so far, believe it or not, this is just the backdrop.
I apologize again, but I will not be changing any names at this point:).

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With Russia suddenly having a presence in the New World, and even if small compared to Britain, France, and Spain still significant and with rapid growth, the other European powers quickly looked to expand their own New World empires and shore up defenses in case the worst happened.
Britain and France in particular, as in real-time, were soon at each others throats again. They just could not keep away from a war. This time, it started over a very silly little thing: a hundred-man British scouting party led by a young inexperience colonial major with the name of Washington or something like that stumbled onto a French Fort. Perhaps it happened a year earlier than in real-time.
Soon enough, in 1761 (2 years earlier) the war ended with Britain suddenly the dominant power in the New World. They controlled Canada, and so controlled almost all of the fur-trapping and the like not under Russia control. This made Russia uneasy, and rightly so.

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So, Russia began to look towards other peoples - the Natives who lived on the Great Plains east of Russian jurisdiction. No, the Russians did not envision more empire expansion - it would be too unwieldy, separated by a bunch of mountains, and the Russians were still solidifying their control over Ornomia. Plus, a few of the tribes directly under Russian rule had a few issues with the Plains tribes, which could lead to some sticky situations.
Instead, the Russians expanded their trading circle again. The Plains Natives hunted the Bison. They only took what they needed, but there was a great abundance. Russia thought: "rather than send people over the mountains to get the hides, which will surely be coveted back in Europe, we can get the hides over here". So the trading expanded rapidly.
Of course, the Russians only had so many things to trade. Slowly, they began giving away some basic technological 'secrets', sometimes already blended with Ornomie culture. This was a slow process, and it was not huge, but among other native groups the Plains Natives were regarded as advanced and powerful. To avoid warring many of the Plains tribes made alliances with each other. It was a slow and hard process, with one or two bloody wars in between, but after enough pow-wows most of the Plains Natives were relatively united behind a few powerful tribes, the leading one being the Sioux (let's just say).
Their growing power made some of the Natives in the Ohio and Mississippi River valley feel uneasy, especially when confronted with the advancing white man to the east. But we'll come back to the Woodland Natives later.

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By and by, the British fell into debt, as they would from fighting so many wars. After great debate, someone suggested taxing their American colonies, for which the latest and greatest (so far) war had been fought. This idea was quite popular, and Britain finally ended its period of Salutary Neglect. They interfered with the American colonies. However, after a century of alone-ness, the 2-3 million colonists were not so keen on Mother England anymore.
Events here follow real-time quite closely, so I will not list them in detail. One difference is that events moved slightly faster, so that the great American-French victory over General Lord Cornwallis at Yorktown occured on October 15th, 1777 (exactly 4 years earlier than in real-time). Also, Spain was not so keen on helping France get America her independance. Spain was already worried about the constantly expanding Russia in Ornomia, and so to not only allow, but aid the creation of a new country just to the north of their holdings in the Floridas and Texas seemed almost suicidal. However, Spain finally helped the colonists too.

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All of the greatest minds in the 13 American colonies came to Philadelphia in early summer, 1783. Their new nation was in trouble, what with the recent Shay's rebellion, and spiraling debt. These demi-gods, after much debate, finally came up with a radical and new Constitution. It was far-reaching. And new. And powerful. And new.
Forshadowing events to come was some of the debate that happened in Philadelphia. In particular, over slavery. Most of the northern colonies did not want it, or at least, wanted it to slowly disappear. All of the southern colonis needed it for their agriculture. Of couse, as in real life, the northern colonies conceded the necessity to the southern colonies, but the arguments were fierce. The north was even able to look at the example of Ornomia, where there was no slavery, not even serfdom, and the people thrived (comparatively). This argument had little effect.
There was fearsome debate between the Federalists and Anti-federalists over ratification, but finally by the middle of 1784 New Hampshire finally ratified the Consitution, making the requisite 9 states. NY, Va, NC, and RI all ratified soon enough. In the 1784 election, Washington won with all of the possible votes, and Adams came in second for the Vice Presidency. Issues over where the capital would be and how to get out of debt and the like were slowly hammared out. Vermont was admitted as the 14th state (to settle the boundary dispute between NY and NH). Washington and Adams were re-elected peacefully in 1788. It seemed like America might survive as a country after all.

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Far to the south, in Mexico, and some of Spain's other New World colonies, people watched events unfold to the north with interest. Many people thought that the events were interesting, but did not pertain to them.
Others looked at the example of the United States of America and said "we are being oppressed here. If they can win their freedom, why not us?" Their numbers were few, but there was time still.

Event soon shifted to Europe, where in 1789, King Louis XVI was killed via guillotine. Forget America for a moment, here is where the real action is.........

END OF PART III
 
The French Revolution was long, hard, and bloody, much as in real-time.
That is, until the middle of the 18zeros, when Napoleon basically ran out of places to conquer. He thought about Russia, but he decided against invading them for a few reasons. First of all, despire his triumph over their relatively token force with the Austrians, Russia possessed a strong military that was getting even stronger as the hostilities went on. This was because Russia was growing rich from international trade, had a very large population to draw from (even larger since the emancipation of the serfs in 1785), and was justifiably worried about France. Then too, Russia, before the Revolution, had been becoming more and more friendly towards France. Russia did not particularily like Britain, due in part to the Canada conflicts, and more towards Britain's strong navy. Russia could only compete in the Pacific Ocean, and so was slowly but steadily building an Atlantic fleet. This of course meant that Russia could trade with other nations, and so would be able to comply with Napoleon's Continental system. Finally, there is a slight difference between being a megalomaniac and being insane. Napoleon was convinced that invading Russia would put him up against Generals Winter and Famine, and so would not in the long run succeed.
So Russia and France signed their famous agreement, which was actually held, unlike in real-time. France instead went for Spain. Britain, still ruling the seas and hating France, of course sent troops to Iberia to held Spain. This made Spain and Britain allies. Without a Russian distraction, both sides were able to pour troops into Spain. The official Spanish government (the hereditary monarchy) was able to stay during the conflict, and both sides, without signing an official treaty, had a cease-fire due to mutual exhaustion in 1816. Before that happened, however, Spain called back over to Europe almost all of their troop strength in the New World, with predictable consequences that we are not quite ready to talk about yet.

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The United States was faring well. Adams was peacably elected the second President for 2 terms. This differs from real-time, and is explained easily: In 1796, neither side in the Napoleonic wars were yet impressing American sailors. Britain also actually agreed to Jay's treaty or similar, and so legally let America have the NW. Meanwhile, until Napoleon solidified power, France seemed unreliable at best, anarchistic at worst. Since the two forming political parties were centered along lines of alliance (Federalist Adams to England and Democratic Republican Jefferson to France), the Federalists had power during the last decade of the 18th century.
The US was expanding to the west rapidly. Ohio, Kentucky, and Tennessee became states by 1800. More wanted to follow, but ran into the problem of the Natives.
Most of the tribes in the path of the expanding US did not particularily like the expanding US, with the exceptions of most tribes in the South (Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, and some Creek, although they had a civil war going on [forshadowing]). The battle of fallen timbers and others were bad for relations (duh) and the land grants the US wrested from the Natives were heavily skewed in the US's favor. Furthermore, the tribes of the NW were also threatened from their west by the expanding power of the Sioux Federation. All it would take was one leader to unify the NW tribes.
This leader, or pair of leaders, was found in Tecumseh and his brother The Prophet, of the Shawnee tribe. The former was a great military leader; the latter a spiritual unifyer. Between them and their scattered successes against encroaching whites while everyone else failed, just about all of the NW tribes coalesced into a rival coalition, known by the white people as Tecumseh's Alliance. They were a very big thorn in the side of America as settlers continued flowing over the Appalachians. The few scouting expeditions sent by America past the NW territory onto the plains encountered the Sioux Federation, and made friendly contacts (well, 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' thought the Americans), although not much actually happened between them, yet.

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In fact, it only really began heating up in the NW when Tecumseh's Alliance began revealing a reliable source of muskets and gunpowder in addition to their own weapons. Was Britain selling these to Tecumseh? Probably. They did not like America's rapid expansion. They disliked it more than Russia's prior rapid expansion. Again, they thought 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' (this will be repeated until 10 powers are involved in 1825, just wait) and sold arms to Tecumseh.
Jefferson became the 3rd President in 1800 and also served two terms. Finally, events in Europe showed that France was returning to stability. Napoleon was better than nothing, and relations became cordial again, more so than with England. In 1804, Aaron Burr, Jefferson's prior vice-President, was not chosen again due to his duel with Hamilton. However, he did win the governorship of NY state, and so was quite pacified. This meant that on a particular day in 1807, he was not busy with a plot to steal an empire (the SW, of which more will be talked about in a moment).
By 1807, Britain had begun impressment, while France had not (not as much, anyway) and due to all other factors public opinion in the US had shifted back to France. In 1807, HMS Shannon fired on USS Chesapeake, and took four prisoners, supposedly true British subjects. In real-time, this conflict was glossed over due to the Burr trials, and led directly to the Embargo acts.
However, this time there was no distraction. The whole country was actually united, for once, and wanted war against England right now! This Jefferson could not give, as he said in a very memorable speech to Congress. He outlined the basic facts: America had a very small army and virtually no navy, the army was busy fighting the natives anyway, America could not afford to sink into debt from a war. The country was disappointed but accepted this.
However, a few army commanders in the NW heard of the Chesapeake affair before they heard Jefferson's conciliatory comments. One of these commanders took it upon himself to march overland to fort Detroit, cross the little river, and invade Canada. He retreated after a few days, but his force was followed by a small force of British regulars and Canadian militiamen. And Miami and Shawnee Natives.
At the River Raisin, in Michigan Territory, the American force stopped to scout for suitable fords, when the British arrived. They were simply probing the American lines, in supposed peace, when someone fired a musket. No one knows which side fired first (like at Lexington), but it developed into a 5-minute firefight. At the end 5 Canadians and 11 Americans were killed, with more wounded. Both sides withdrew, but in the process the Natives attacked the American column. By casualties the Americans fared better here, but after being harrassed for miles the force was in a state of panic, and reached Indiana territory after losing half its supplies.

By the time word of the two attacks reached the eastern newspapers people had blended the battles into one joint British-Native attack.

A few days later, under immense pressure, Jefferson declared war on Britain, as vengence for the Chesapeake affair, impressment generally, inciting the Natives against the US, and a few other minor issues that were fabricated for show.

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Well, we needn't go into details here. The 'war of 1807' was a short one, about a draw, and at the peace table Jefferson succeeded in legally ending impressment (not in practice) and guarantees against arming the Natives (also not in practice, although didn't happen again until 1819). Interesting point: Napoleon offered to send a few divisions to America to help against the British; Jefferson refused.
The war showed how desperately the US needed a trained military. So after Jefferson's hand-picked successor, James Madison, won the elction of 1808, Jefferson before March 4th instituted the US Military Academy at West Point and the Naval Academy at Annapolis. He also, against his better judgement, increased funding generally for the military.

Madison remained popular, and the industrial revolution came to America, slowly, mostly in the north, with only a few canals so far. Madison was re-elected in 1812, and then continuing the Virginia dynasty with Monroe in 1816. However, Monroe won mainly because the opposition could not unify behind a single candidate.
Who was the opposition? The opposition was mostly New England, but by 1820, as we will see, this spread to NY, NJ, Pa, Oh, and the newly created states of Indiana and Illinois (these were sparsely settled and never safe from Tecumseh's Alliance, which was in fact growing). The reason?

Slavery.

It wasn't hard-nosed abolitionists like in the American Civil War, but more and more northerners saw, not slavery per se, but extending slavery as immoral, particularily when every other major nation, including now Russia, had abolished it. This would not be a monstrously big problem in the southern states, but for the cotton gin, as in history.

More on that later.

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With so many Spanish troops away from South and Central America and the Carribean and Mexico, and with new nations or at least colonies thriving in North America, and with brutal Spanish oppressment weighing heavily on everyone, in the 1810's Spain's new world empire all but disappeared. Similar to history, just a bit earlier. The important one in Mexico, which gained its independence relatively bloodlessly. All of these moves were loved by Napoleon, who saw them as weakening Spain. Making it just ripe for his new series of attacks, to begin in 1824, once he built up enough transports in the Carribean to make the war in Spain one on a few fronts (not too far, but maybe to attack Spain from the SE, for example).

What made the Mexico stuff important to America, and particularly to the people in New England, was one of the most important provisos in Mexico's constitution:

Ending slavery.........

END OF PART IV

Sidenote: how can I change the name of this thread? I want it to be Pine Needles...and the Great War of 1825
 
It's and interesting timeline. As for a name change talk to Ian or the Mods( not sure if any are here)
 
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