Russia is still getting over their civil war and Japan is starting to rearm. If China wants to strike this is the time to do it. But if the Chinese hit Japan I think the US would enter the war or if nukes are used. Given how cold heartless bastards the Chinese are, I see them doing it. Even more so if they are losing.I was thinking perhaps you see Japan and Russia vs China in the East, the Chinese possibly nuke Pusan and Vladivostok, then they possibly halt it for a while in the face of massive international outcry.
Just one guess ofc.
The Union Forever: A TL
- Thread starter Mac Gregor
- Start date
From my understanding, the PTO is roughly an equivalent to NATO, if not quite as uniform.
The Chinse, if they attack a PTO member, trigger the defense clause of the treaty, which calls in all the other nations. Which then call in their respective alliance groups. So, China could go from attacking Japan to fighting the LAR, the ComNat, the CSAS, and the others as well. That's without taking into account Russia (or, heck, even India is a factor).
If the Chinese plan to attack, they have to attack fast and create a situation on the ground where events happen too fast for anyone to react. If they get a fait accompli, they might could convince the other nations to back down... which would result in the death of the PTO. They have to strike hard, strike fast, and pray the other nations don't mobilize fast enough.
This TL is so amazing, I'm just reading through it now and am in the late 70s TL wise. In particular, the alternate cultural developments are exceptional.
I have one minor question that may have already been addressed in a Turkey update--what happened to the Anatolian Greeks and other minorities? With no Treaty of Lausanne did they remain in Anatolia? Considering there was no Armenian Genocide did Turkish nationalism develop less xenophobically then OTL?
I have one minor question that may have already been addressed in a Turkey update--what happened to the Anatolian Greeks and other minorities? With no Treaty of Lausanne did they remain in Anatolia? Considering there was no Armenian Genocide did Turkish nationalism develop less xenophobically then OTL?
Thanks for an updated list IchBinDieKaiser! My only issue is that the technocrats have to much support in parliament. New Zealand is likely to be pretty anti-technocratic at this point. Maybe split the votes between the technocrats and a ecoist party?
1) I did mean revival, thanks.
2) Syria is doing well. They are concerned about the growing tensions between Turkey and Persia, but quietly are in favor of their Sunni neighbor Turkey, the weaker power. There has been talk of forming an Arab bloc but most nations are content to let the Turks and Persians focus on each other.
3) A recap of the terms....
Treaty of Colombo
Indian Government
The treaty made a number of stipulations on the shape that India’s post war government was to take. The corporatist Raṣṭriya Ekata Parṭi (REP) was permanently banned and any high ranking REP politician was barred form ever holding public office. Free, fair, and democratic elections were to be held no later than July of 1980. India was to renounce aggressive war and any territorial claims to neighboring counties. The Indian government was also forced to apologize for the war and pay reparations worth 40 billion British Pounds.
Military Restrictions
Also imposed in the treaty were several limitations on India’s military. Ground troops were hereby capped at 300,000 and cataphracts at 250. The Indian air force was prohibited from possessing any medium to heavy bombers and restricted to a mere 200 aircraft including attack helicopters. India forever renounced the right to possess chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons. The Indian Navy could not exceed 100,000 tons and was forbidden to operate aircraft carriers or armed submarines.
Territorial Changes
As expected, the treaty made numerous territorial changes at the expense of defeated India. Bengal’s western border was expanded to include the now ruined city of Calcutta. At the strong insistence of the Portuguese delegation the three settlements of Portuguese India had their territory expanded to more “defensible borders.” The Commonwealth of Madras gained territory to have a contiguous border running from Goa to Hyderabad. Mysore gained a small corridor to the sea, and Hyderabad made modest gains in the southwest. Along the Indus River, two new nations were formed out of the predominantly Muslim states of Sindh, South Punjab, and West Punjab. These included the Republic of Sindh with its government seated in Karachi, and the Republic of the Punjab with its capital in Multan. Awkwardly, Baluchistan was forced to cede a large swath of territory to Persia which was politely termed a “border readjustment.”
Spheres of Influence
While not explicitly mentioned, the Treaty of Colombo effectively carved out new spheres of influence for the major powers. Baluchistan, Sindh, and the Punjab all become heavily tied to Persia. The Chinese Technate acquired massive influence over Assam and Bengal. In the south, the Commonwealth of Madras positioned itself to become the leader of a new coalition of small Indian nations.
2010: World Statistics
I can do more than that. List time!
As of 2010...
Top 10 Nations by Area
1. Russian Empire
2. Dominion of Canada
3. United States of America
4. Federal Republic of Brazil
5. Federation of Australia
6. Technate of China
7. Democratic Union of Turkic Republics
8. Dominion of South Africa
9. French Republic
10. Argentine Republic
Top 10 Nations by GDP
1. United States of America
2. German Empire
3. Technate of China
4. United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
5. French Republic
6. Republic of Italy
7. Empire of Japan
8. Commonwealth of Madras
9. Federal Republic of Brazil
10. Russian Empire
Top 10 Nations by Population
1. Technate of China
2. Indian Republic
3. United States of America
4. Republic of Indonesia
5. German Empire
6. Federal Republic of Brazil
7. Commonwealth of Madras
8. Union of Nigeria
9. Technate of Bengal
10. Russian Empire
Top 10 nations by Military Expenditures
1. United States of America
2. Technate of China
3. German Empire
4. Russian Empire
5. Persian Empire
6. United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
7. French Republic
8. Republic of Italy
9. Turkish Republic
10. Commonwealth of Madras
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It's OTL's pre-WWI borders plus Austria, Sudetenland, and a huge chunk of "German Cameroon."
Picture OTL Germany's economy, plus Sudetenlande, Austria, and the Second Reich's borders in the East, and without being devastated by the Great Depression and Second World War. It makes sense.
Seems bit high but not impossible. Like there has already said, Germany has OTL 1914 borders, Sudetelands and Austria. German Cameroon is too integrated to German Reich. And there hasn't been nazis nor WW2 so population is certainly pretty high. Even in OTL Germany's population is bit over 80 millions.
Probably more angry at the REP for losing the war but they acknowledge the previous government did a lot of industrialization and infrastructure work. Indian politics may be more of a fight between moderate and right wing parties but technocrats would not be acceptable. The defense budget and internal security would be more focuses on the Chinese and allies in Bengal and Assam first, Madras and the Commonwealth second and Persia and allies third. While the armed forces may be limited they will be well equipped, well trained and professional. The security/police/intelligence services will be larger and will act as supplements to the Armed Forces in a shooting war.
One point they don't have A-L. As I recall they made a play for it but one reason or another they didn't get it.
It was a plebiscite. Alsace-Lorraine and Corsica both went to the polls over it and, in the end, the status quo was chosen, so neither were taken by Germany/Italy.
I'm honestly not surprised. Russia was the only nation on the face of the earth that could had passed the United States in GDP in the early 20th century. Germany if guided right could close the gap but not over take the US. Russia on the other could have overtaken the US ITL but the civil war knocked her back on her ass. Had it not been for the two world wars, the "Soviet" way, and so for Russia could have a much higher GDP right now.
I don't know Russia ITL but my hunch is they were closing in on the top spot and the civil war threw them back.
Also, Brazil's population could be lower as well, but consider.
If we assume that Alsace-Lorraine has approximately the same area as the Sudetenland (for ease of calculation), then TTL Germany has a land area 74.8% larger than OTL Germany. Even if we take OTL Germany and increase the population by the same amount, we get a total population of 142.315 million people. Add in Cameroon, combined with the lack of the world wars to destroy the population, etc... Population is likely in excess of 160 million. Cameroon's pop OTL is 23.4 million currently, and TTL Cameroon is larger.
I've taken what everyone has said into consideration, and agree that the Technocrats would not be a growing political force in New Zealand. I pretty much just replaced the Technocrats with Ecoists. I also changed the name of the "Anti-Refugee" into the "New Zealand First" Party.
Submitted for the approval of this Timeline's author, an update on the Political History of New Zealand, from 2001-2010
Here is a link to the previous update I made for New Zealand
New Zealand: 2001-2010
List of Prime Ministers of New Zealand
Sir William Fox (No Party) (1861-1862)
Alfred Domett (No Party) (1862-1863)
Sir Frederick Whitaker (No Party) (1863-1864)
Sir Edward Stafford (No Party) (1864-1869)
Sir William Fox (No Party) (1869-1872) *
Sir Francis Dillon Bell (No Party) (1872-1875)
Sir David Monro (No Party) (1875-1877)+
Sir Charles Clifford, 1st Baronet (No Party) (1877)
Sir William Fitzherbet (No Party (1877-1878)
Sir Charles Clifford, 1st Baronet (No Party) (1878-1886)
Sir George Maurice O'Rorke (No Party) (1886-1889)
Sir William Steward (Liberal) (1889-1892) **
Sir George Maurice O'Rorke (Liberal) (1892-1897)
Sir Robert Arthur Guiness (Liberal) (1897-1901)
Richard Seddon (Liberal) (1901-1906) +
Sir Robert Arthur Guiness (Liberal) (1906-1911) ***
Sir Frederick Lang (Reform) (1911-1920) ****
Sir William Newport (Reform) (1920)
Sir Rupert Scrivener (Liberal) (1920-1922)
Vincent Brimble (NZ Whig) (1922-1923) *****, V*
Nigel Plaskitt (Liberal) (1923-1926)
Malcom Terris (Reform) (1926-1934)
Nigel Plaskitt (Liberal) (1934-1937)
Malcom Terris (National) (1937-1940) V**
Terrance Dicks (Liberal) (1940-1950)
Richard Irvine Hurst (National) (1950-61) +
Lawrence Williams (National) (1961-1963) V***
John Robinson (National) (1963-1964)
Margaret Lewis (Liberal) (1964-1968) V****
Sir Nigel Hughes (Liberal) (1968- 1976) X
Sir Robert Irvine Hurst (National) (1976-1983) X*, X**
John Partridge (Liberal) (1983-1990) X***
Ronald Levin (Liberal) (1990-1993) X****, XV
Jacob Hewit (Liberal) (1993)
Audrey Bevin (Social Democrat) (1993-1995) XV*, XV**
Jacob Hewit (Liberal) (1995)
Jonathan Braxton (National) (1995-2000)
Michael Mateparae (National) (2000-2004) XV***
Christopher Brown (National) (2004-2006)
Denis Hewit (Liberal) (2006-) XV****
*Title officially changed from "Colonial Secretary" to "Premier"
** First Official Political Party, the Liberal Party, Founded in 1891
*** Title officially changed from "Premier" to "Prime Minister" after New Zealand Achieved the status of Dominion
**** The Second Official Political Party, the Reform Party, Founded in 1911
***** The Third Official Political Party, the New Zealand Whig Party, Founded in 1921
V* This is the first coalition government, NZ Whigs and Reform Party
V** The Reform and NZ Whigs combined to form the National Party
V*** Forced out of office by vote of no confidence
V**** First female Prime Minister
X Lost an election due to his opposition to New Zealand's involvement in the war in India
X* The son of former Prime Minister Richard Irvine Hurst
X** In 1980 Prime Minister Robert Irvine Hurst along with a number of other Commonwealth leaders are knighted
X*** Legislature Reform Act of 1984 passed
X**** First Jewish Prime Minister
XV Stepped down after scandal
XV* First Social-Democrat Prime Minister
XV** Removed by a vote of no confidence
XV*** First Ethnic Maori Prime Minister
XV**** Brother of Prime Minister Jacob Hewit
+ Died in Office
The 1995 election brought the National Party back into the government for the first time in 12 years. National Party Leader, Jonathan Braxton, was elected as Prime Minister. He and the National Party campaigned on restoring the free market and "Fiscal Sanity" to New Zealand. They privatized the industries that had been nationalized under Audrey Bevan and walked back other programs that had been expanded under the Liberal-Social Democrat coalition governments. They abolished Universal Higher Education and reduced the number of winners from the Lower Income Scholarship Lottery. They began a gradual plan to privatize the health industry, hoping to have it completely privatized by 2005. One project that the Nationals kept from the Partridge Government was the Cook Straight Tunnel. After new assessments, it was determined that it would not be finished until the year 2001. Despite the increased costs of doing so, the Nationals kept the project. The late 90s was a period of calm recovery for the New Zealand Economy, and in the year 2000 the Nationals called an election. This election gave the nationals majority in the parliament, but they kept the Maori in the government along with a few independents.
The biggest development that came out of the 2000 election was Prime Minister Jonathan Braxton stepping down, choosing not the run again. He was the oldest member of the National Party and was initially given the leadership of the party as an honorary thing. They then gave him the Prime Ministership because he was the least controversial. But he stepped down to retire from politics, and his chosen successor was Michael Mateparae, a 40-year-old, ethnic Maori, who was elected outside of the reserved Maori seats. He became the first Maori Prime Minister.
At the 2001 convention for the Social Democrats, party leader John Fitzpatrick called for the party to be dissolved, and rejoin the Liberals. There was a contentious debate, but after 3 days 70% of its delegates voted to officially dissolve the party. 5 of the party's 7 Assembly members, along with the party's single Senator, would join the Liberal Party. Of the remaining two, one became an independent, and the other, Norman Hawthorn, joined the Ecoist Party of New Zealand. The New Zealand Ecoists didn't have enough voters in any single constituency to win a seat in Parliament. However, there were several MPs who supported Ecoist policies throughout all the parties. Norman Hawthorn was one such MP. He chose to run as a Social Democrat because he believed they were the closest active party to matching the platform of the Ecoists. With the Social Democrats no longer active, and none of the other parties strong enough on Environmental issues, he decided to change affiliation, and give the Ecoists their first official MP.
The major political issue dominating the early 2000s was the IEF Civil War, and in what way New Zealand should be involved, especially in regards to refugees. There was bi-partisan support and opposition to the issue of refugees. The Liberals, being more socially progressive, tended to be in favor of more open immigration. However, within the ranks of the Liberals, especially among the former Social Democrats, and labor activists, there was opposition to allowing IEF refugees into the country. The MPs from blue collar districts were less keen on allowing foreigners to come in and compete with citizens for jobs. Within the National Party, there was support among the more religious members who had been influenced by the Rainbow Revival. However, there was also opposition from more traditional conservatives who didn't want poor foreigners to come in and overload an already, as they saw it, overburdened welfare system. In the fall of 2002, a bill was passed by a coalition of pro-refugee MPs, including Prime Minister Michael Mateparae, and Liberal Leader Denis Hewit (brother of former Prime Minister Jacob Hewit). This bill allowed for greater immigration from the IEF, or any IEF refugee living in a Commonwealth Country, to relocate to New Zealand if they are willing to begin the Citizenship process. The bill was very divisive within both parties, and in order to calm down the tensions, the PM called an election for November 2002.
The National Party lost its majority in Parliament, while the Liberals and Ecoists both gained seats. Most in the media were surprised to see the Ecoists actually gaining seats, instead of Norman Hawthorn losing his. Two constituencies normally held by the National Party were taken by the Ecoists, the same occurred with the Liberals. The last seat that was lost by the National Party went to a new party that sprang up within the month between when the election was called. The New Zealand First Party had only one official plank to its platform, block all refugees from coming into the country. The process of building a government was complicated due to the refugee issue. Both major parties were split. The leadership of both parties supported the Refugee Bill. This lead to a government containing members of all parties being created (the New Zealand First Party was excluded). Michael Mateparae retained the Prime Ministership, but the position of Deputy Prime Minister had to be given to Liberal Leader, Denis Hewit. The new governing coalition made a public statement that they would maintain this current government until either the IEF Civil War ended, or the 5-year parliamentary term ran out, whichever occurred first. After which, a new election would be held.
This government held onto power from December of 2002, until February of 2004, after the Geneva Accords. Not much in terms of policy was conducted during the Rainbow Government. It was frequently referred to as the "Do Nothing Parliament" by commentators. This was due to the highly divisive coalition, but this didn't stop both major parties from being harmed in the 2004 election. The Ecoists were the biggest winners of this election, being the only party to gain seats. The single New Zealand First MP managed to retain their seat. Despite the IEF Civil War being over, the refugee problem continued and expanded. On top of IEF refugees, in late 2004 there were refugees from a Tsunami that hit Indonesia. After losing seats in two elections in a row, Michael Mateparae stepped down as leader of the National Party and was replaced by its deputy leader, Christopher Brown.
2005 marked the 25th anniversary of the end of the Pacific War, which became a popular subject of film, television, and literature. It was also at this time that former Prime Minister, Sir Robert Irvine Hurst, published his memoirs, titled At the Bottom of the World, which became a best seller in New Zealand, and fairly popular within the Commonwealth realm. He died on October 21st, 2005, at the age of 83, just 3 months after the publication of his memoirs. In 2006, a memorial was built in his honor near the Parliament Building in Wellington.
Christopher Brown was seen as a mediocre Prime Minister. Unoffensive, but uninspiring. Declining poll numbers forced him to call an election for July of 2006. After 11 years in Power, the National Party would no longer hold the Prime Ministership. He would be replaced by the Liberal Leader, Denis Hewit. Denis Hewit was a strong supporter of free trade, open immigration, and a moderate welfare state. The National's had failed to privatize the health care industry, though most commentators recognized that this was due to the confusion of the early 2000s and the Refugee crisis that forced the Nationals to make coalition governments with parties that supported it. Denis Hewit wanted to increase economic ties within the Commonwealth and even proposed that the Commonwealth should make a trade deal with the United States and the LAR. His government also lowered corporate income taxes to 10%, the lowest in the English Speaking world. His Hopes were to bring in more revenue by growing the economy, and enticing more international corporations, especially tech companies, to relocate their headquarters to New Zealand. Along with this came a revamping of the welfare state. Legislation was passed to modernize the system, with an emphasis on globatrix integration, reducing paperwork administrative costs. This plan seemed to work, as New Zealand would see an economic boom through the late 2000s.
2000 Election
Assembly
National: 65
Liberal: 40
Maori: 10
Social Democrats: 7
Independent: 3
Senate
National: 18
Liberal: 9
Maori: 7
Social Democrats: 1
Governing Coalition: (National-Maori-3 Independents)
After 2001 Dissolution of the Social Democrats
Assembly
National: 65
Liberal: 45
Maori: 10
Ecoist:1
Independents: 4
Senate
National: 18
Liberal: 10
Maori: 7
Governing Coalition: (National-Maori-3 Independents)
2002 Election (AKA: The Refugee Election)
Assembly
National: 60
Liberal: 47
Maori: 10
Ecoist: 3
New Zealand First: 1
Independents: 4
Senate
National: 15
Liberal: 12
Maori: 7
Independent: 1
Governing Coalition: (35 Nationals-25 Liberals- 3 Technocrats-6 Maori-4 Independents) (AKA: The Rainbow Coalition)
2004 Election
Assembly
National: 55
Liberal: 42
Maori: 10
Ecoist: 8
New Zealand First: 1
Independents: 9
Senate
National: 11
Liberal: 9
Maori: 7
Ecoist: 4
Independent: 4
Governing Coalition: (National-Maori)
2006 Election
Assembly
Liberal: 53
National: 50
Maori: 10
Ecoist: 10
Independent: 2
Senate
Liberal: 14
National: 10
Maori: 7
Ecoist: 4
Governing Coalition: (Liberal-Ecoist)