The Union Forever: A TL
- Thread starter Mac Gregor
- Start date
Isn't independent Punjab mostly Islamic and Sikh Punjab belong still for India?
I would guess that this one has a primarily Muslim population, but not with quite as much of a majority as OTL.
Doesn't seem like it would be a Sikh-majority, for sure.
I wouldn't think so either, but I was going for historical symbols for Punjab. It was the only one I could find.
And I went for the 5 stripes since Punjab just means "Five waters" as it is. The five rivers that flow into the Indus.
Here. A third one, to see if it works better.
Edit: Also, there is precedent for the rivers with Mesopotamia's flag. So that'd make two in that sense.
Last edited:
Samoa and the Society Islands have very compatible cultures, and MacGregor has indicated that Pacifica's counties have considerable autonomy, so the Samoans would probably live with this arrangement, especially since they'd be too small to achieve statehood on their own.
The Micronesians, who are more culturally divergent, have a separate territory which is probably not populous enough to become a state (unless there's a lot of naval immigration to Guam as in OTL, and then the other Micronesian islands might not want to be part of a Guam-dominated union). Maybe a commonwealth such as the Northern Marianas have in OTL might be in the works.
I definitely like the 5 blue stripes.
The combined population of Micronesia, including the Marianas, Marshalls, Palau, and the FSM is about 430,000. If they had the Gilbert Islands it would be around 500,000, but I don't recall the US having them ITTL. Even without them, I'd say Micronesia is probably right around the threshold, especially if they get more immigration than OTL.
I don't know much about the culture of the various Polynesian islands, so I shan't dispute that. The degree of latitude granted to the various counties within the new state was probably made by MacGregor just to take into that account.
However, I merely bring it up as I remember it being a major point of contention with Samoa, as the island group was not happy being incorporated into the rest of Polynesia in the first place. (Indeed, if I remember correctly, it was only done to reduce future Senate seats from sure Republican regions) It wouldn't happen anytime soon, but I wouldn't be surprised if a movement began to grow, seeking independence. If the timing is right, I'd see it happening. Or it could fizzle out and amount to nothing.
For that matter, the modern day population of Samoa alone is about 245 thousand. That should be plenty large enough.
As for Micronesia, that's a good point, but those islands may remain as territories for a long time. I'm still waiting for the Caroline Islands to become a state with the name of West Carolina though.
Good looking flags Luminous! I especially like the second one. As mentioned though the Republic of the Punjab is majority Muslim by a wide margin so I don't believe they would use the Sikh symbol. Can you put a blue star and crescent in its place?
Last edited:
I don't know much about the culture of the various Polynesian islands, so I shan't dispute that. The degree of latitude granted to the various counties within the new state was probably made by MacGregor just to take into that account.
However, I merely bring it up as I remember it being a major point of contention with Samoa, as the island group was not happy being incorporated into the rest of Polynesia in the first place. (Indeed, if I remember correctly, it was only done to reduce future Senate seats from sure Republican regions) It wouldn't happen anytime soon, but I wouldn't be surprised if a movement began to grow, seeking independence. If the timing is right, I'd see it happening. Or it could fizzle out and amount to nothing.
For that matter, the modern day population of Samoa alone is about 245 thousand. That should be plenty large enough.
As for Micronesia, that's a good point, but those islands may remain as territories for a long time. I'm still waiting for the Caroline Islands to become a state with the name of West Carolina though.
Concerning the new state of Pacifica. There are still tensions between the Samoan and Polynesian islands since they were merged into a single territory in 1962. However, tempers have cooled since the state delegated authority to the counties to manage issues such as education. There is still a movement to split the state back into separate Samoan and Polynesian entities but for now most Pacificans are content with the current arrangement.
Great flag Lalli. What do you think about changing the top stripe to red? This would make it share the same colors with Persia which has strong influence over the Republic of Sindh.
Asia-Pacific War: Jan - Apr 1980
Victory over Japan
January-April, 1980
January-April, 1980
USS Nathan Hale in action near Chichi Jima
February 28, 1980
Invasion of Formosa
After four months of recuperating and refitting following the Battle of Hainan, the Technate of China invaded the island of Formosa on January 2, 1980 in what was the largest amphibious invasion in history. Having been occupied by the Japanese since 1897, Formosa was considered an integral part of the Japanese Empire and to be held at all costs. Much like on Hainan, the fighting was tenacious and brutal as soldiers grappled with each other in claustrophobic underground tunnels and catapracts clashed above ground. In the air, the Allies enjoyed near complete air supremacy. This allowed helicopter gunships and bombers to wreak havoc on Japanese positions. General Juro Minami, the commander of the island’s defenses, in a desperate move ordered suicide attacks against the Chinese invaders. While unnerving, these had little impact on the overall battle. By March, the provincial capital of Taipei and the rest of the heavily populated western coast had fallen to the Allies. It would take a further five weeks before the rest of the island capitulated on April 11. Like many battles between the Techante and Japan the exact casualties will never be known, however most historians estimate total casualties somewhere between 1.3 and 1.5 million combatants and civilians.
Battle of Chichi Jima
After the costly success at Iwo Jima, the United States directed its efforts against the largest of the Bonin Islands, Chichi Jima. With Chichi Jima captured, American bombers from Micronesia would have a clear path to devastate the key cities of Tokyo and Yokohama. Understanding the critical importance of Chichi Jima to the defense of the Home Islands, the Imperial Japanese Navy consolidated its remaining strength to oppose the landings. On February 28, the Japanese Fleet led by Admiral Saburo Tsukino steamed south to intercept the Allied invasion force under Admiral Gerald Cartwright. The battle would prove to be the largest of the war in terms of ships, surpassing the Battle of the Spratley Islands, pitting 5 Japanese aircraft carriers (Takasago Koku, Shikoku, Hokkaido, Aichi, and Taiwan) against 10 Allied carriers (HMAS Queensland, HMS Albion, HMS Victorious, HMSAS Springbok, USS John Paul Jones, USS Manifest Destiny, USS Ragged Island, USS Robert T. Lincoln, USS Saratoga, and USS Sundern). Unlike other naval engagements of the war, the contest in the waters around Chichi Jima lasted less than 12 hours. With a clear advantage in numbers, the Allies decimated the Japanese Fleet destroying all of their aircraft carriers and 20 other vessels. The Allies lost the aged USS Manifest Destiny and the HMSAS Springbok was badly damaged. With the remnants of the Imperial Japanese Navy scattered or cowering in port the Allies completed their landing on Chichi Jima. On April 8, the island was declared secure at a cost over 10,000 Allied lives.
Fall of Ryota Hayashi
The fall of Formosa and the destruction on the Japanese Fleet persuaded all but the most delusional hardliners that the war was now lost. At the request of several moderates, Emperor Nobuhito publicly called for Prime Minister Ryota Hayashi to resign on April 19. Enraged, Hayashi ordered the Emperor to be taken into “protective custody.” Fortunately for the Emperor, the troops sent to capture him defected after a brief standoff with the palace guard. As pressure mounted, Hayashi soon found himself surrounded inside Kobushi party headquarters by soldiers loyal to the Emperor. Realizing that the end was near, Hayashi committed suicide by a pistol shot to the head on the morning of April 22.
Armistice
Immediately following Hayashi’s death, Emperor Nobuhito appointed the anti-corporatist academic Hachiro Kimura as interim Prime Minister. On April 24, Kimura signed an armistice with the Allied powers on board the HMS Victorious. At the ceremony, representatives from the British Commonwealth, League of American Republics, Kingdom of Portugal, and the Technate of China stood in reticent triumph as Kimura signed the armistice document on live television. After nearly three years and ten months of war and millions of deaths, the guns finally fell silent.
Crowds celebrate news of the armistice in London
April 28, 1980
Last edited:
About damn time. Can't wait to hear the terms of surrender. Japan should have capitulated months earlier.
About damn time indeed. I'm surprised they were able to hold out for that long, despite how quickly the Americans were able to blitz their way across the Pacific.
Stubbornness and no WW2. I'm not surprised, but too am glad the war is finally over.
Looking forward to seeing what the 80's come up with!
Indeed it almost stretches believability that they chose to go this long. I expected a coup within days of the Prime Minister saying they would fight until the end (or well something about honor but that is what he meant).
I'm gonna go against the grain, and point out how....well, suspiciously often governments ITTL seem to fall due to internal drastic action (be it having the warmongering heads of state cleanly deposed, or outright assassinated or arrested) instead of forcing the opposition to do it the hard way and go all-out (especially here, with a fanatical political/ideological movement having been ingrained into Japanese society).
I'm not really complaining, per se, as I'm also glad to see the war come to an end (and after all, many TL's decide to go down a more dystopic route which is also equally exhausting), it just makes my Suspension of Disbelief itch just a wee little for it to have happened so often, so consistently.
Anyway, great set of updates! I would also point out, in addition to superior numbers, that the Allies by this point likely have a more important advantage over Japan in trained veteran crews/aviators and likely better quality kit since they (unlike Japan) haven't had their factories bombed or the requirement to focus the same assets across multiple fronts. And of course, intelligence and cryptography likely played a vital role for the Americans and UK-Commonwealth forces (just like Midway ended up being).
EDIT: I almost forgot, the Emperor was the one that dropped the hammer on the Kobushis, which indeed would do the trick quite nicely. My point about the trend we've seen, though, I won't retract. Take it for what it's worth, constructive criticism coming from a place of enjoyment of your work.
I'm not really complaining, per se, as I'm also glad to see the war come to an end (and after all, many TL's decide to go down a more dystopic route which is also equally exhausting), it just makes my Suspension of Disbelief itch just a wee little for it to have happened so often, so consistently.
Anyway, great set of updates! I would also point out, in addition to superior numbers, that the Allies by this point likely have a more important advantage over Japan in trained veteran crews/aviators and likely better quality kit since they (unlike Japan) haven't had their factories bombed or the requirement to focus the same assets across multiple fronts. And of course, intelligence and cryptography likely played a vital role for the Americans and UK-Commonwealth forces (just like Midway ended up being).
EDIT: I almost forgot, the Emperor was the one that dropped the hammer on the Kobushis, which indeed would do the trick quite nicely. My point about the trend we've seen, though, I won't retract. Take it for what it's worth, constructive criticism coming from a place of enjoyment of your work
.
Last edited:
One reason Japan went on for as long as it did IOTL was the lack of even relative moderates - the entire government was pretty much dominated by militarists by that point. I'm more than sure it's the same situation here.