Eparkhos
Banned
With all due respect, please stop. I'm worried you'll get the thread closed, please work out your problems with EMT via PM.
The Undying Empire: A Trebizond Timeline
- Thread starter Eparkhos
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Don't bother. This is you putting words in my mouth, miss me with that. If you don't get it yet, you won't five PMs later
There has been exactly one post that cheered the genocide of the Turks and that guy has already been warned by the Mods. Stop trying to make it a bigger thing than it is right now.
In other news, I’m very curious to see what Church is going to replace the Hagia Sofia now.
Let me be REALLY, REALLY clear. These sorts of slap fights NEVER end up well. Not IRL and especially not here.
If you feel that there is a Board policy/rules violation, report it. Full Stop.
If you don't have something to report PLAY THE BALL.
You both(and others in the thread) are making it seem like I went looking for this. Or like I've been baiting an argument or encouraging it to continue. I made one post(which CalBear seemed to think I was in the right for). I added a follow-up post to say that clearly, not everyone's post is suspect.
From there, Quinkana quoted me, and put words in my mouth. Everything since then has been me defending my original statement and later stonewalling attempts to twist my words against me. I've made attempts to close the matter here, here, here, and here, first with clarifications then later with stonewalling. Every clarification I made got follow-up that doubled down on putting words in my mouth which is why I swapped to shutting it down hard. Why am I being reprimanded as having encouraged this when I neither started the multi-page sprawl nor have I wanted to continue it at all? Was I just supposed to sit and get gaslighted as having accused people here of advocating genocide?
I've kept things as civil as I can. I've checked the rules to see if there's anything I can do about this; and no, there isn't. It's on me to have to explain that no really, I didn't actually accuse people of directly supporting genocide, that's words being put in my mouth. What's there to report? Gaslighting isn't a rule violation, and Quinkana didn't break any rules, not even the civility one. Insisting that I'm saying something I'm not isn't exactly reportable, it's only going to goad me into losing my temper, and then I'd be the one actually breaking the rules.
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On other things, an Anatolia with less Muslim influence would be very interesting. Russia will certainly be different as Trebizond help and Trebizond control of Crimea would make for a very complicated relationship between the two. Another interesting thing is that the Middle East will definitely be different as Trepezous would be spreading its influence throughout the Middle East to expand its influence.
One of the fun things ittl would be a historian telling his friends that 'did you know a really powerful Muslim empire was in Anatolia and the Balkans?' and his friends would be genuinely surprised, much like when I talk about al-Andalus.
One of the fun things ittl would be a historian telling his friends that 'did you know a really powerful Muslim empire was in Anatolia and the Balkans?' and his friends would be genuinely surprised, much like when I talk about al-Andalus.
I STRONGLY recommend that you both withdraw to your own corners, step away from this thread for a few minutes, have a cuppa, walk the dog, check out a couple vidoes on You tube, or do whatever you may like to do to relax.
Seriously.
Right DAMNED NOW!
Diffrent question will all those refugees on the docks/boats actually escape given that the Tranzbon fleet has a high chance of prevent there escape or is this a last stand scenario?
The Haemus/Balkans are probably going to be a free-for-all with the Ottomans leaving one huge void in its death spiral. I think Bulgaria, Albania, Morea, and Trebizond are primed to fight each other over European territory, especially Constantinople, since that's a symbol of Orthodox prestige and power that people like Shkoze and David desire to keep for themselves. Hungary could be an interesting factor going-in, as they might have their own agenda for the peninsula.
Disclaimer
Eparkhos
Banned
Alright, before I get to the comment response, there's something I'd like to say.
The 1500s, and the 1600s and the 1700s and all of human history up to and including this year have been horrible places for most people. When I write descriptions of ethnic cleansing and what are unequivocally warcrimes, I am trying to show what would have happened at this time in allohistory if the events which have occurred in this timeline so far had actually happened. I AM NOT ENDORSING THE HORRIBLE THINGS THAT HAPPEN IN THIS STORY. I include them for realism, and sometimes drama because none of this is really happening, but in no way, shape or form am I advocating for them. It's like Sons of Alexander: I show children being tortured, but I'm not advocating it.
To be perfectly blunt, the next part is going to have David hurtling over the Moral Event Horizon at Mach 10, and I'm trying to make this as unambiguous as possible. I think most of my readers are smart enough to see that feeding children to sharks is wrong, but just to be sure and keep any reports from being filed I would just like to repeat that I do not endorse everything I write. I've toned down a great deal of the violence that would've happened, mostly because showing it all would get me put on several watchlists, but the story could be quite disturbing. Warning in Advance.
The 1500s, and the 1600s and the 1700s and all of human history up to and including this year have been horrible places for most people. When I write descriptions of ethnic cleansing and what are unequivocally warcrimes, I am trying to show what would have happened at this time in allohistory if the events which have occurred in this timeline so far had actually happened. I AM NOT ENDORSING THE HORRIBLE THINGS THAT HAPPEN IN THIS STORY. I include them for realism, and sometimes drama because none of this is really happening, but in no way, shape or form am I advocating for them. It's like Sons of Alexander: I show children being tortured, but I'm not advocating it.
To be perfectly blunt, the next part is going to have David hurtling over the Moral Event Horizon at Mach 10, and I'm trying to make this as unambiguous as possible. I think most of my readers are smart enough to see that feeding children to sharks is wrong, but just to be sure and keep any reports from being filed I would just like to repeat that I do not endorse everything I write. I've toned down a great deal of the violence that would've happened, mostly because showing it all would get me put on several watchlists, but the story could be quite disturbing. Warning in Advance.
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If it's going to be that disturbing, i concur. And i do not see any reason why it shouldn't, considering what happened. Hopefully what David is going to do isn't going to be whitewashed by ITTL historians, like so many folks in OTL. David is proving to be a very successful and capable ruler, but the fact that he at best is bordeline insane and now is going to be a outright butcher, it should be worthy of damning judgement.
I dont know, I have been periodically sacrificing kids to improve my WiFi connection. Maybe feeding some to the sharks will help bring back the Hagia Sofia.
Eparkhos
Banned
That's the high end of travel times, three weeks in each direction. Hypothetically, it could be done under a relay system, but the Trapezuntines have yet to reestablish one--although that would be a good idea for David to implement soon--but to this point it is done by a mixture of ships and riders. Depending on the quality of the roads or the direction of the wind, it could take three weeks at most or a week and a half as the lowest consistent travel time.
As has been discussed later on in the thread, the Hagia Sophia is of massive symbolic value, and its destruction will echo throughout the rest of David's reign and beyond. The question is, to what extent?
Logically speaking, it would've been best to flee to Aydin and fight on. However, given that Osman II is basically Muslim David, he wouldn't see it that way. Strictly speaking, Aydin would probably be lost anyway, given press from all sides, so Osman decided to risk it all in one last gamble.
Yeah, Constantinople's position makes a rebuilding almost certain. Of course, David would rather the funds go elsewhere, and with the decreasing value of the Black Sea trade it's entirely possible the Ottoman city might wind up better than the restored city. Also, he's not a complete egomaniac, so he's not going to name one of the Five Patriarchal Cities after himself. Maybe a suburb, but not the whole city.
Yeah, the burning of Constantinople is a turning point for David, and though I don't want to spoil how it changes him it will have immense impacts on the story later on.
Are you commenting from the future? I'm not totally joking, you've been quite accurate since you started commenting. Wanna tell me how I kill off David?
Hahaha, I'm not sure how David would die, but if he becomes genuinely insane then an assassination is probably coming from him. Roman, Albanian, Greek, or Turk, it probably doesn't matter, as I think by the end of this, everyone would have some beef against him.
Eparkhos
Banned
Yeah, like I said, Moral Event Horizon at Mach 10. Every (non-Muslim) Greek in the city would also be outraged as well, as their city had not only been conquered by an infidel enemy, said infidel enemy had then blown up their holy sites on their way out. The sheer level of anger among them would be equivalent to birch-bark drenched in gasoline.
Again, you've more or less called it. There's the problem of 'crimes against God and man' up front, followed by the whole 'Turkish pseudo-vassal state under Kadir' problem that the massive shift in public opinion would cause.
True.
'Apoplectic' would be more accurate by this point.
Plsdontbanmeoupoli coming up soon.
That'll actually be pretty big soon, as the refugees and mercenaries that flee to the rest of the Islamic world will hold an undying (heh) hatred of the Undying Empire, the sort of slow-burning ethnic hatred that even the Maniotes would consider extreme. Also, in the fantasy book I'm writing in a similar setting features a number of pseudo-Ottoman exile characters.
Not really, actually. There's two problems with that: Firstly, the Orthodox are rather against crusading. David is the exception in terms of bloody-minded religious warfare, although the destruction of the Hagia Sophia might change that. Secondly, Latin crusaders will be in short supply because of the chaos that's unfolding in the west. I mean, when an army of heretics has Milan under siege, Constantinople takes the back seat in terms of crusading.
Pretty much what Osman was thinking.
The Ottomans were able to rise in the chaos that gripped western Anatolia in the 13th and 14th centuries. The problem with doing that again is the lack of enemies to play off each other: The Rumites want their land, the Romans and Moreotes want to kill them and dance a jig over their corpse, and the internal chaos caused by refugees makes them more likely to collapse into anarchy than use it as a ladder.
1. Genocide was very much possible, especially if a ruler had the means, motive and utter lack of scruples needed to do it. Timur killed something like three-fourths of all Assyrians, so many that their numbers today haven't recovered. David won't do it, though, both because of Mgeli and because of the practicality of the issue. He's crazy, not stupid.Technically genocide at those times wasn't possible in the short-term and needs more planning due to less resources.
I also doubt the voice of Megli would go for that option in any case due to it being a waste of resources, time and effort. More likely a big counter from the Trapezuntians but not much after that.
To the update. Nice twist there now Shkoze is inside the CIty and could turn on the Trapezuntians which would make the situation a battle royal, royal City and royal throne huh it fits! I 'd rather him not to really as his position is not that secure with all the crusaders being influenced by David or bought by him and attacking a fellow christian is another matter altogether.
Could David be a new Justinian? In the building and law matters anyway cause I don't see him conquering Italy any time soon. To manage a rebuilding he needs a lot of time in peace and to siphon every penny around his Empire which could lead to some but situations. Also Constantinople needs a population injection and I don't know where those people will come from, I mean obviously from the Trapezountian heartland but that would leave the are underpopulated and decrease its defensive capabilities. Westerners could be invited to revive the Latin quarter of old but having a lot of them is a double-edge sword , like the eagle in the banners ok I'll stop the puns.
Very dramatic way to end a book. We have made the awaited reconquest and now we need to consolidate and keeps them. O STAVROS NIKA!!!
2. Ye shall see.
3. Depending on certain factors which might spoil the plot, David could become Justinian 2 (wait...), although as he spirals downward the periods of peace needed for such a legacy will be...hard to come by.
4. Thanks, I'm afraid it's not entirely mine. Inspiration came from Napoleon (2002), a miniseries whose third episodes ends with Napoleon staring into the camera as it zooms out to show Moscow burning around him.
Eparkhos
Banned
Grievously. As I type this, I'm bleeding out over my laptop. Oh, the huge manatees...
That's a very good summation of things IMO, the reconversion of the Hagia Sophia sparked a good deal of anger (on the net anyway) OTL, imagine what outright destroying it would do, and then imagine what sort of response that would get from a pre-Enlightenment culture.
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