I've certainly forgotten most of the Punic names I suggested back in 2011, but its a good thing you still have them in hand. Hope to see updates on the Barca Empire and the upcoming Puno-Ilegertae conflict.
The Thunderers: A Carthage Timeline
- Thread starter Monopolist
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Great update. Looks like I have a feeling the Carthaginians are going to suffer a massive defeat in Spain here soon.
Thank you all. Next update I'm hoping will be up before Christmas, when we'll find out whether slydessertfox is right. My goal is to reach my update on Rome by the end of my break.
Great TL! Where's that update?! I guess I can't blame you, it is hard to write a TL.
Sorry about that; that's the problem with trying to set deadlines -- you never reach them!
Anyways, the update is here now!
THE REIGN OF HANNIBAL BARCA
Early Years: The Wars against Indibilis and Bastokike, Part Two
After the town that bore his father’s name had been destroyed by Indibilis, Mago could not afford to not make the town a central part of his campaign, and indeed his strategy would be to weed the barbarians from the coast and destroy their Hellenic allies. Pride was a powerful motivator for all men in the Carthaginian army, from the individual soldiers who revered the Barca family to the officers who had become intimately familiar with that family. However, pride was not the only reason for taking the coast away – the coast was the region that was least under Indibilis’ control, and so was the best place to secure a base north of the Ebro for Mago. As soon as the army crossed the Ebro River, Mago marched towards the ruins of Barkeno. A few skirmishes (most of them Punic victories) were fought with Indibilis’ men or allies before they reached their destination. There was no enemy presence at the ruins; the Iberians had been content to loot the settlement and move on. Hoping to make a statement, Mago established a garrison in the area with men known for their loyalty, and decided to make the town (which would come to be known as “Barkhadest”) his base of operations from which to assault Emporion, which was the main strategic target of the coastal campaign. Gisgo says that other towns came to Mago after he had established himself, claiming that they believed Indibilis a tyrant and surrendering to Mago’s just rule. The Hellenes, however, were unrepentant.
Mago’s plan to strike at Emporion received criticism from his second-in-command Hasdrubal Gisgo. Hasdrubal Gisgo wanted to march straight for Indibilis, arguing in a famous passage from Gisgo’s [2] chronicles that it was best to land a blow at the head or heart of an enemy combatant rather than one of his extremities. As Mago pointed out, the problem with that plan was that Indibilis was fighting a guerilla campaign, and would be extremely difficult to corner – especially on his own turf. As such, it was better to cut Indibilis from his allies and let him grow weaker on his own, until they could strike with ease. Mago won the argument, but Hasdrubal Gisgo did not come away completely convinced.
Before long Mago would besiege Emporion – although to call it a siege would be a farce; rather, it was a long negotiation between the Carthaginians and the Hellenes, in which Carthage was backed up by twenty thousand soldiers. To sack Emporion would be a long and costly operation, not worth the expenditure in man-hours or men, and there was something to be said for maintaining momentum against a shadowy enemy like Indibilis. Not surprisingly, Emporion’s leadership caved, accepting Mago’s demands that they hand over the most anti-Barca politicians and allow a garrison in the settlement. Emporion was humbled, but not quite defeated.
There were conflicting reports as to the whereabouts of Indibilis and his main force; wild men that the army had captured rarely spoke another word after they were brought into captivity, Punic “methods” having little effect in loosening their tongues. Allies north of the Ebro were never trusted, it was impossible to tell who was bound to the rebellion and who was not. Eventually two different possibilities emerged which Mago judged to have credence – Gisgo guesses that Indibilis leaked both of these stories to spread doubt and misinformation to Carthage, and was probably correct. One report claimed that Indibilis was hiding in the Pyrenees among the Andosini tribe in a town called Arketurki with a token force, while his brother Mandonius was leading men at the front lines under his brother’s name. According to this Indibilis was content to stay in the north and harass Punic lines until Mago gave up. The other report claimed that Indibilis was much further south, preparing a massive army to march on New Carthage at Iltirta. This seemed fanciful, but was obviously far more immediately dangerous to Punic interests. Mago tried to determine which of these was more likely during the summer, but in the end his dithering failed to surface the truth. Wanting to defeat the rebellion before winter, Mago decided to split the army into two to confront both possible scenarios. Mago believed it more likely that Indibilis was hiding in the mountains, and so he chose to personally go there with a small force of just a couple thousand picked men. Mago traveled separately from the main body, with less than a hundred of the most elite riders (all of the men in this smaller sub-force were on horses) of that force. They traveled a few miles ahead of the rest of the men, hoping to go undetected. The rest were given to Hasdrubal Gisgo to march on Iltirta and ensure that the rumored army in the south was just a rumor and wipe out whatever resistance was there.
Hasdrubal Gisgo traveled south along the Iberian coastline, until he reached the Ebro River. He then followed that river west until he reached the Sicoris [3], which he followed north along its eastern banks. Iltirta is difficult stronghold for an invader to attack, due to being nestled between two rivers, and Hasdrubal Gisgo learned that well as he attempted to cross the river without being badly harassed (his supply train and the rear of his formation were constantly exposed to attack in the wild frontier that they were marching in). The Carthaginians were well into the territory of the Ilergetae and the heart of the rebellion; no native scout could be trusted, and appearances were often deceiving. At least, this was the viewpoint of Hasdrubal Gisgo, who had grown certain that there was a massive conspiracy among his scouts. The story goes that he went against his scouts’ advice in choosing to ford the Sicoris at a point a few miles north of Iltirta – they had given him intelligence that Indibilis and the main bulk of his army was actually waiting for him in north of the settlement, but he distrusted them.
Gisgo tells us that the scouts were in fact in league with Indibilis, and that they had been playing mind games with the poor general, feeding him enough information to keep them employed, but just enough misinformation to ensure the general’s suspicion for just this moment. The story goes that when it came time to cross the river, the scouts used Hasdrubal Gisgo’s suspicion against him. This, however, was probably just a rumor to explain a national tragedy – Hasdrubal Gisgo’s scouts were not to blame for his defeat so much as the enemy’s greater knowledge of the terrain. Indibilis sprung a massive ambush on Hasdrubal Gisgo shortly after all his men had crossed the river. The tale goes that only a single Punic soldier survived the slaughter, and that he would become a sort of celebrity in Carthage, providing the story of the Battle of the Sicoris for Gisgo’s account. Hasdrubal Gisgo had a valiant death, fighting until his helmet came off and an Iberian sword split his skull. Indibilis had much greater intelligence than his Carthaginian adversaries had, and knew that Mago had fallen for his northern misdirect – his brother Mandonius, in fact, waited there to set an ambush on the Carthaginian general. Mandonius’ trap would be largely successful, obliterating the main body of Mago’s picked army, but he failed to capture Mago’s personal force. Mago was pursued all the way back to the Ebro River by Indibilis’ men, but they failed to capture the son of Hamilcar Barca, who still had many friends as he went further and further south. When he made it south of the Ebro he sent word to Hannibal of their catastrophic defeats and his need for more men. Hannibal is said to have responded with “Brother, return to me Iberia!” [4] when he learned the news. Over the winter Hannibal conscripted and trained a new army and sent them to Iberia; he also had Hasdrubal Barca contribute some of his men who were occupying Sicily uneventfully.
614 AY [5] was not a complete disaster for Carthage. Like a bloodhound, Hanno tracked the troublemaking Bastokike down, hiding among the Oretani on the fringes of Carthaginian territory in Iberia. The speed and efficiency in which he handled the operation won the Barca brothers’ nephew respect, and he became renowned throughout Iberia for restoring law and order in the south with his small force of seven thousand men.
When news reached Hanno of his colleagues’ successive defeats in the north, he began to prepare on his own to defend the south from an invasion by Indibilis, which all the rumors suggested he was planning to do. He conscripted some militiamen from the colonies from Gadir and New Carthage and Abdera, and won over fresh Iberian mercenaries from the Turdetani, Bastuli, Turduli, Carpetani, and others by “convincing” town leaders to give him advances on taxes. When Mago Barca returned from the north, he was shocked to find an army capable of defending Carthaginian territories waiting for him, and the reinforcements sent by the other Barca brothers allowed a revival of the Punic cause in 615 [6].
Indibilis initially had not intended to follow through with an invasion of Carthaginian Iberia; an experienced soldier, he knew that he was best keeping the fight where he was strongest rather than trying to project power on his own. However, the scope of his success in 614 impacted his judgment, and gave him delusions of potential grandeur. He believed that there was too much inertia behind his cause for it to be stopped by what remained of Carthage in Iberia. As such, he continued to add recruits to his army through the winter, preparing to invade the south when spring rolled around. The decision would prove to be his undoing.
[1] – “New Barkeno” mashed into one word.
[2] – The writer Gisgo, not Hasdrubal Gisgo.
[3] – This was what the ancient Greeks called the Segre River.
[4] – Obviously based off of Augustus’ famous remark after Teutoburg Forest.
[5] – 200 BC
[6] – 199 BC
Companion map for the update is below. Next update will finish out this little plot and hopefully wrap things up with Carthage stuff for the time being.
Then it's on to Rome, which will be dealing with malcontents of their own.
Then it's on to Rome, which will be dealing with malcontents of their own.
Emperor RyRy
Banned
I don't remember if this was explained. If so its been awhile since anyway, but what is the "AY" used in the Carthaginian calendar?
Will try to have the next update done soon.
Thanks
You and I, we think alike.
It's just how many years since 814 BC, the traditional founding date of Carthage. Here's the footnote explaining it at the beginning:
Thanks
You and I, we think alike.
It's just how many years since 814 BC, the traditional founding date of Carthage. Here's the footnote explaining it at the beginning:
The update is shorter than I initially envisioned it, mostly because I just wanted to get done with the Indibilis plot and move on to Rome, and then move on to the east (which I think is the most interesting part of the early part of this timeline).
THE REIGN OF HANNIBAL BARCA
Early Years: The War against Indibilis, Part Three
Punic sources say that Indibilis’ had a horde of three hundred thousand men that he invaded Carthaginian lands with. While no one believes in the accuracy of that number, it does seem that the Iberians had a very significant force going south – perhaps the most significant in their entire history. It seems reasonable to put their numbers between forty and eighty thousand warriors, and that would be a number more fitting for Mago and Hanno to ultimately overcome with their meager, hastily arranged army of fifteen thousand.
Indibilis started his southward march in late February, just as the snows were starting to melt, but earlier than the Carthaginians would be expecting. Mandonius was left behind to guard his rear. Iberian tribesmen were taken unaware as well. The chief of the Ilercavones refused to desert the Carthaginians after the battle, and found himself punished by Indibilis in the spring – his seat of power was sacked, and in the midst of the chaos his daughters were taken captive by the Indibilis’ men, becoming concubines of the great warlord. Saguntum surrendered peacefully to the Ilergetae shortly thereafter; after suffering from sieges in their recent past, few wanted to go through another, and in addition the inhabitants were generally sympathetic to the anti-Barcid cause. [1] With the revival of his cause returned the support of the Hellenes of Emporion, who were still eager to establish themselves as a force equal to Carthage in the peninsula. They exterminated their garrison after a day-long battle in the city; after the last Punic soldiers had surrendered to the might of the people, the Hellenes went back on their word and executed them in the Carthaginian fashion – crucifixion.
It was only by the time Saguntum fell that Hanno and Mago’s force was ready to march north against their barbarian adversaries. Even if they hadn’t been, it was vital that Indibilis be met in the field before long – he was starting to encroach upon Carthaginian colonies, nearing the first great city of Punic Iberia, Akra Leuke. [2]
Battle came near the town of Sucro [3], a stronghold of the Contestani. A people that had long been subjected to Punic rule, many men among the Contestani joined Indibilis, swelling his numbers with eager young men. Their chief, however, refused to declare himself for one side or the other until after the battle. It would prove to be a wise decision. Hanno and Mago successfully employed the “Cannae strategy” against Indibilis, arranging their soldiers in a crescent shape with their Libyan spears on the flanks and their Iberian infantry in the middle and in front. Unlike the Romans, Indibilis was not accustomed to fighting against this formation, and managed to squander his great numerical superiority. His soldiers’ lack of discipline led to the complete slaughter of his army; only a few made it out of the battle alive. Indibilis was one of the many dead; Hanno, trying to emulate his uncle, sought his enemy out after the battle was done and gave him a proper burial. Indibilis was the greatest barbarian adversary that the Carthaginians faced until the invasion of the Teutones under King Teutobod in 708 AY, which helped ensure the end of the Barcid monarchy. [4]
After the battle, Hanno and Mago pursued the enemy northwards. With so many of the fighting men north of the Ebro killed in the Battle of Sucro, the Carthaginians were able to quickly eradicate Mandonius and what remained of the Ilergetae rebellion. Emporion, too, was taken, and they were punished brutally – every man, woman, and child of the aristocratic families which had supported the war were killed, and all of the fighting men that could be proven to have participated in the rebellion against the Punic garrison were similarly put to death, and their widows and children were enslaved. The town was not repopulated; instead, Barkhadest was promoted, and would emerge as the greatest city in northern Iberia.
[1] – The Second Punic War, of course, started with Hannibal’s Siege of Saguntum.
[2] – Modern Alicante.
[3] – Chose the spot because it was the location of a Roman mutiny supported by Indibilis and Mandonius in 206 BC. It’s a little south of Valencia.
[4] – Rather large spoilers for how I’m planning to end the timeline.
THE REIGN OF HANNIBAL BARCA
Early Years: The War against Indibilis, Part Three
Punic sources say that Indibilis’ had a horde of three hundred thousand men that he invaded Carthaginian lands with. While no one believes in the accuracy of that number, it does seem that the Iberians had a very significant force going south – perhaps the most significant in their entire history. It seems reasonable to put their numbers between forty and eighty thousand warriors, and that would be a number more fitting for Mago and Hanno to ultimately overcome with their meager, hastily arranged army of fifteen thousand.
Indibilis started his southward march in late February, just as the snows were starting to melt, but earlier than the Carthaginians would be expecting. Mandonius was left behind to guard his rear. Iberian tribesmen were taken unaware as well. The chief of the Ilercavones refused to desert the Carthaginians after the battle, and found himself punished by Indibilis in the spring – his seat of power was sacked, and in the midst of the chaos his daughters were taken captive by the Indibilis’ men, becoming concubines of the great warlord. Saguntum surrendered peacefully to the Ilergetae shortly thereafter; after suffering from sieges in their recent past, few wanted to go through another, and in addition the inhabitants were generally sympathetic to the anti-Barcid cause. [1] With the revival of his cause returned the support of the Hellenes of Emporion, who were still eager to establish themselves as a force equal to Carthage in the peninsula. They exterminated their garrison after a day-long battle in the city; after the last Punic soldiers had surrendered to the might of the people, the Hellenes went back on their word and executed them in the Carthaginian fashion – crucifixion.
It was only by the time Saguntum fell that Hanno and Mago’s force was ready to march north against their barbarian adversaries. Even if they hadn’t been, it was vital that Indibilis be met in the field before long – he was starting to encroach upon Carthaginian colonies, nearing the first great city of Punic Iberia, Akra Leuke. [2]
Battle came near the town of Sucro [3], a stronghold of the Contestani. A people that had long been subjected to Punic rule, many men among the Contestani joined Indibilis, swelling his numbers with eager young men. Their chief, however, refused to declare himself for one side or the other until after the battle. It would prove to be a wise decision. Hanno and Mago successfully employed the “Cannae strategy” against Indibilis, arranging their soldiers in a crescent shape with their Libyan spears on the flanks and their Iberian infantry in the middle and in front. Unlike the Romans, Indibilis was not accustomed to fighting against this formation, and managed to squander his great numerical superiority. His soldiers’ lack of discipline led to the complete slaughter of his army; only a few made it out of the battle alive. Indibilis was one of the many dead; Hanno, trying to emulate his uncle, sought his enemy out after the battle was done and gave him a proper burial. Indibilis was the greatest barbarian adversary that the Carthaginians faced until the invasion of the Teutones under King Teutobod in 708 AY, which helped ensure the end of the Barcid monarchy. [4]
After the battle, Hanno and Mago pursued the enemy northwards. With so many of the fighting men north of the Ebro killed in the Battle of Sucro, the Carthaginians were able to quickly eradicate Mandonius and what remained of the Ilergetae rebellion. Emporion, too, was taken, and they were punished brutally – every man, woman, and child of the aristocratic families which had supported the war were killed, and all of the fighting men that could be proven to have participated in the rebellion against the Punic garrison were similarly put to death, and their widows and children were enslaved. The town was not repopulated; instead, Barkhadest was promoted, and would emerge as the greatest city in northern Iberia.
[1] – The Second Punic War, of course, started with Hannibal’s Siege of Saguntum.
[2] – Modern Alicante.
[3] – Chose the spot because it was the location of a Roman mutiny supported by Indibilis and Mandonius in 206 BC. It’s a little south of Valencia.
[4] – Rather large spoilers for how I’m planning to end the timeline.
So Iberia is stabilised. Seems Carthage solved all won't have much external worries for some time.
Rome needs time to recover, and east is both out of reach and lacking in anything that might interest Carthage.
I wonder what will happen there next, I half forgot story so far. I'll need to reread those parts.
Rome needs time to recover, and east is both out of reach and lacking in anything that might interest Carthage.
I wonder what will happen there next, I half forgot story so far. I'll need to reread those parts.
For one the Hellenistic Era will survive quite longer in the East, now that the Seleucids have free reign to nip the Parthians in the bud. The only threats now will be internal strife and Yuezhi/Saka invasions from Transoxiana.So Iberia is stabilised. Seems Carthage solved all won't have much external worries for some time.
Rome needs time to recover, and east is both out of reach and lacking in anything that might interest Carthage.
I wonder what will happen there next, I half forgot story so far. I'll need to reread those parts.
Fair assessment, Carthage is in pretty good shape right now. Hannibal's in a great spot politically, and Spain, Sicily, and Africa are pretty secure. The main source of potential trouble is in southern Italy once Rome gets back on its feet.
I wonder what will happen there next, I half forgot story so far. I'll need to reread those parts.
I'm not surprised! It's been a while since I wrote a lot of the timeline!
Grouchio said:
It may, or it may not. The Seleucids are in a great spot right now, but a lot of that has to do with the ability of Antiochus the Great, and new developments can always stir up the pot a little.
I just caught up with this TL! While it is very well written it saddens me to think that Carthage won't last nearly as long as OTL Rome.
Anyway, are the Carthaginians and Selucids on good terms?
Anyway, are the Carthaginians and Selucids on good terms?
Thanks!
I will point out though that all I've said is that the Barcid dynasty will only last the 100 years, not Carthage itself. Carthage may or may not survive the end of the Barcid monarchy. So don't weep for Carthage yet! Besides, you might see your username play out in the process.
I would say reasonably good terms. I haven't included it in this version, but in previous versions I had Hannibal go on a pilgrimmage east to Tyre and meeting with Antiochus the Great and whatnot. I still plan on having that in this version, just maybe not devoting an entire update on it. Regardless, yes, Carthage and the Seleucids are on good terms -- I figure it makes sense given Hannibal and Antiochus' OTL relationship, plus there's not much for them to fight over unless Antiochus disrespects the Phoenicians in some capacity. That's really the only thing that would be important for Carthage -- to respect Tyre and allow Carthaginians to maintain their religious connection with their mother city.
Thanks!
That sounds better.
Besides, you might see your username play out in the process.
If that happens, all would be forgiven!
How did those two got along personally in OTL really? Most things I know make it seem like Hannibal thought of Antiochus as a pompous fool, but since that mostly coming from Roman sources I don't put much faith in it. Antiochus accomplished too much to be an utter tool.
Perhaps you've got some better sources?
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