The story of a different Panzer V (Panther)

[paulo]

The story of a different Panzer V (Panther).


Part I – Designing


Q4 of 1941 – Germany


After the PanzerArmee encounters with the T-34 and KV series, the design of new panzers as to be rethink.


The III is considered obsolete and ordered the end of production. The existing chassis are to be converted to StuGIII.
The IV as to be upgraded to the F2 / G as soon as possible.
The Tiger (VI) is considered too expensive, too heavy and not using sloped armor. So, is also terminated.
The V that is still in design, is to be the new model, but after consultations with several front line crews that are summoned to add they expertize, the model suffer several modifications.
This put the tank in front line service in mid 43.


Specs of the new Panzer V Panther


50 tons
Armor (as in OTL F model)
front – 80mm sloped at 55 degrees
sides and rear - 60mm
turret front – 120mm at 20 degrees
up – 40mm
From the beginning the KwK43 that in also in development at the time, is selected for the main gun.
So the turret and turret ring are designed taken the gun in consideration.
Some say the 75L70 is good enough and if used, more ammo can be loaded, but the final decision is for the 88 in part because the HE shell is more powerful and is even better AP than the 75L70. Also, in the political side, Krupp the builder of the KwK43, as more clout at time than Rheinmetall that build the Kwk42.
Engine
The Maybach HL230 is selected. Capable of 700hp, soon is found that is reliable only up to 650hp.
Development of the HL234 with injection and capable (in theory) of 1000hp gets high priority...
Secondary armament
1 MG 34 in the front glacis
1 MG 34 co-axially with the main gun on the gun mantlet


Speed is about 40km/h road and 22km/h cross country (a bit less than OTL, but heights more)
Range 200km road 170km cross country (about same as OTL)


In the initial design, to remove the engine is necessary to remove also the turret. All the front line crews serious object to that, and the chassis is changed to be possible to replace the engine without first removing the turret.
Because the using of the bigger gun, only 50 rounds are loaded.


With so many modifications, the tank is not in front line until the battle of Kursk, and so none go to North-Africa, only the little number of Tigers that are produced are send (about same in OTL).
So, the WA (USA,UK,etc) know the Tiger – that as out of production, and nothing of the Panther – that is entering production.


Part II is the first battles / first lessons.

 

[informationfan]

The story of a different Panzer V (Panther).


Part I – Designing


Q4 of 1941 – Germany


After the PanzerArmee encounters with the T-34 and KV series, the design of new panzers as to be rethink.


The III is considered obsolete and ordered the end of production. The existing chassis are to be converted to StuGIII.
The IV as to be upgraded to the F2 / G as soon as possible.
The Tiger (VI) is considered too expensive, too heavy and not using sloped armor. So, is also terminated.
The V that is still in design, is to be the new model, but after consultations with several front line crews that are summoned to add they expertize, the model suffer several modifications.
This put the tank in front line service in mid 43.


Specs of the new Panzer V Panther


50 tons
Armor (as in OTL F model)
front – 80mm sloped at 55 degrees
sides and rear - 60mm
turret front – 120mm at 20 degrees
up – 40mm
From the beginning the KwK43 that in also in development at the time, is selected for the main gun.
So the turret and turret ring are designed taken the gun in consideration.
Some say the 75L70 is good enough and if used, more ammo can be loaded, but the final decision is for the 88 in part because the HE shell is more powerful and is even better AP than the 75L70. Also, in the political side, Krupp the builder of the KwK43, as more clout at time than Rheinmetall that build the Kwk42.
Engine
The Maybach HL230 is selected. Capable of 700hp, soon is found that is reliable only up to 650hp.
Development of the HL234 with injection and capable (in theory) of 1000hp gets high priority...
Secondary armament
1 MG 34 in the front glacis
1 MG 34 co-axially with the main gun on the gun mantlet


Speed is about 40km/h road and 22km/h cross country (a bit less than OTL, but heights more)
Range 200km road 170km cross country (about same as OTL)


In the initial design, to remove the engine is necessary to remove also the turret. All the front line crews serious object to that, and the chassis is changed to be possible to replace the engine without first removing the turret.
Because the using of the bigger gun, only 50 rounds are loaded.


With so many modifications, the tank is not in front line until the battle of Kursk, and so none go to North-Africa, only the little number of Tigers that are produced are send (about same in OTL).
So, the WA (USA,UK,etc) know the Tiger – that as out of production, and nothing of the Panther – that is entering production.


Part II is the first battles / first lessons.

Hi, some sidenotes:
a.) the germans allready recognized that they need to upgrade the Mark4... but they have to rebuild the turrets for the larger guns... so here everything should work as rtl
b.) the mark3 was cheap and - evenif this isn´t recognized enough, quite capable to beat allied or russian tanks, esp. with the long 50mm-gun... but true, switching to the StugIII
c.) the germans switched anything to tankkillers, the czech 38er-Tank, french lorraines, etc... again the lack of enough 75mm-guns is the main bottleneck, so your idea of the panther with the 88mm-gun sound reasonable... but you also need to upgrade the factories, otherwise you have a lot panther chassises, without the gun for the turret...
d.) the 1000ps-engine isn´t ready for a long time - you need high-need-materials to build, so you have to give up something important
also its size is different to the 650 (later750)HP-Engine... it isn´t realistic that they plan a tank in late 41 with the knowledge that they build a bigger and stronger engine (they do not know the parameters) in...
e.) if the germans decide to stop the production of tigers in late 41, this tank will not be build at all... cause if you change the plans in late 41 the tiger-production will not start... so either you let them produce around 3-400 of them or they will never come online


Beside this, the input of such a Panther would be serious...

 

[paulo]

Hi, some sidenotes:
a.) the germans allready recognized that they need to upgrade the Mark4... but they have to rebuild the turrets for the larger guns... so here everything should work as rtl
b.) the mark3 was cheap and - evenif this isn´t recognized enough, quite capable to beat allied or russian tanks, esp. with the long 50mm-gun... but true, switching to the StugIII
c.) the germans switched anything to tankkillers, the czech 38er-Tank, french lorraines, etc... again the lack of enough 75mm-guns is the main bottleneck, so your idea of the panther with the 88mm-gun sound reasonable... but you also need to upgrade the factories, otherwise you have a lot panther chassises, without the gun for the turret...
d.) the 1000ps-engine isn´t ready for a long time - you need high-need-materials to build, so you have to give up something important
also its size is different to the 650 (later750)HP-Engine... it isn´t realistic that they plan a tank in late 41 with the knowledge that they build a bigger and stronger engine (they do not know the parameters) in...
e.) if the germans decide to stop the production of tigers in late 41, this tank will not be build at all... cause if you change the plans in late 41 the tiger-production will not start... so either you let them produce around 3-400 of them or they will never come online


Beside this, the input of such a Panther would be serious...

d) - at this time is the idea they need a more powerful engine - say nothing about getting it....
e) - right, my mistake - but the story is about the Panther , so not serious a problem
about the 75 guns - they decide to stop the production of 37/50 guns and removing all stops in production of the 75L48.
All 88L71 go to Panther, so no Nashorn.
The end of the III is to standardized as much as possible in one chassis - IV

 

[Sior]

They need to change the drive train design as well to change out the gears on the final drive to the drive wheel they had to disassemble the drivers and mg gunners positions to get to the gearbox.

 

[paulo]

Part II - First battles / First lessons

Part II - First battles / First lessons.


At time of the Kursk battle, german armored production is:


StuG IV with 105mm howitzer (StuH42 as OTL)
Hummel – 155mm howitzer
Jagdpanzer IV 75L48
Panzer IV – 75L48
Panzer V Panther – 88L71


All except the panther are build using the common panzer iv chassis, simplifying production.
Some ideas to upgrade the JagdPanzer to the 75L70 are studied, but the conclusion is that for now the 75L48 is capable of killing all soviet tanks (as mid 43) and because the L70 use a different type of ammo, (Panzer IV, pak40 and Jagpanzer IV use same ammo) and also because is judged not possible to up-gun the Panzer IV to the L70 gun, the 75L70 is passed away again.


At this time (July 43 – battle of Kursk as in OTL), the soviet tanks are the KV-1 / 2 and the T-34/76 with the 76mm F34 model that have difficulty to penetrate the Panther armor – but capable of deal with the panzer IV. The KV-2 use an massive 152mm howitzer that can do immense damage but is weak in AP.


In the end, and because various reasons, the final result of the Kursk battle is the same, as in the Germans can’t win and they Summer offensive is stopped. The Red army take more losses anf the Heer less, but the final result is the same.


The after battle reports about the Panther show some disturbing facts....
While the armor and the gun work even better than expected, several tanks caught fire without apparent reason.(like in OTL the fuel and oil lines are insufficiently protected).
Also, the rangefinder and the partial stabilization of the gun are fragile, and degrade fast after some time in combat.
Protection against close infantry attack is also low...
The Panther is a much more complex tank to operate than the III and IV models, and the amount of training of the crews is considered no enough...
The turret must turns faster or enemy T-34 can easily gain access to undefended sides...


The ‘fixed’ model – named Panther B (not using the confusing D-A-G-F of OTL)
Redesigned drive train design to change out the gears on the final drive to the drive wheel to not be need to disassemble the drivers and mg gunners positions to get to the gearbox.
Reinforced rangefinder and stabilization of the main gun.
Redesign of the fuel/oil lines to be more protected.
Adding the Nahverteidigungswaffe (90mm NbK 39 close-in defense weapon)
Changing the system that turns the turret, speeding it up to 25s full turn (Sherman is 15s)
Adding an remotely controlled MG34/42 mounted on the roof, with 360 degrees rotation for local defense. The machine gun had a 50-round drum magazine and could be aimed and fired from inside the vehicle. However, the loader was then exposed to enemy fire for reloading. (As in the late model Hetzers in OTL).
Adding skirts of armor.
All these changes put 1 ton more in the design, the new height is 51 tons.
Bad news is that Maybach can't get the promised new engine in production.

 

[informationfan]

d) - at this time is the idea they need a more powerful engine - say nothing about getting it....
e) - right, my mistake - but the story is about the Panther , so not serious a problem
about the 75 guns - they decide to stop the production of 37/50 guns and removing all stops in production of the 75L48.
All 88L71 go to Panther, so no Nashorn.
The end of the III is to standardized as much as possible in one chassis - IV

Hi,

sorry about that with the engine...
the 88L71? no, this has no room in any Panther-turret... you need a turret as big as the Tiger-II-Turret to give it room... the L56 or a modified version (L60?) is possible, but not more... look at the space this gun needed

the standardizied production is good - but not from late41 on, here the germans started to put more IIIer-Tanks out of the factories... if you give em up the germans lack even more tanks in 1942 and early 1943.. this not good for german army... not at all...

the production stop for the 50mm gun is also bad, in 1941 the germans lacked better anti-tank guns, the 50mm is much better as the 37er, also it is lighter as the 75er... so production of the 50mm/L60 shouldn´t stop so early... or do i misread your plan?

 

[paulo]

They need to change the drive train design as well to change out the gears on the final drive to the drive wheel they had to disassemble the drivers and mg gunners positions to get to the gearbox.

Don't know that - ups - go in the next update - Panther C if possible....

 

[paulo]

Hi,

sorry about that with the engine...
the 88L71? no, this has no room in any Panther-turret... you need a turret as big as the Tiger-II-Turret to give it room... the L56 or a modified version (L60?) is possible, but not more... look at the space this gun needed

the standardizied production is good - but not from late41 on, here the germans started to put more IIIer-Tanks out of the factories... if you give em up the germans lack even more tanks in 1942 and early 1943.. this not good for german army... not at all...

the production stop for the 50mm gun is also bad, in 1941 the germans lacked better anti-tank guns, the 50mm is much better as the 37er, also it is lighter as the 75er... so production of the 50mm/L60 shouldn´t stop so early... or do i misread your plan?

This Panther is designed from the start to have the 88L71 - so the chassis / turret taket that in consideration - also, at the time the gun is also in design - they are designed / build one for the other.
This is not the OTL Panther - is one panzer of the same name and more or less (more) same size...
Im the part II i say that they remove all stops im production of the pak40 / 75L48.
And changing production of everithing except panther to use the IV chassis, so no III or III/IV chassis - production is full in IV chassis.

Also - part II rewrite.

 

[paulo]

Part II - First battles / First lessons. V 2.0

Part II - First battles / First lessons.


At time of the Kursk battle, german armored production is:


StuG IV with 105mm howitzer (StuH42 as OTL)
Hummel – 155mm howitzer
Jagdpanzer IV 75L48
Panzer IV – 75L48
Panzer V Panther – 88L71


All except the panther are build using the common panzer iv chassis, simplifying production.
Some ideas to upgrade the JagdPanzer to the 75L70 are studied, but the conclusion is that for now the 75L48 is capable of killing all soviet tanks (as mid 43) and because the L70 use a different type of ammo, (Panzer IV, pak40 and Jagpanzer IV use same ammo) and also because is judged not possible to up-gun the Panzer IV to the L70 gun, the 75L70 is passed away again.


At this time (July 43 – battle of Kursk as in OTL), the soviet tanks are the KV-1 / 2 and the T-34/76 with the 76mm F34 model that have difficulty to penetrate the Panther armor – but capable of deal with the panzer IV. The KV-2 use an massive 152mm howitzer that can do immense damage but is weak in AP.


In the end, and because various reasons, the final result of the Kursk battle is the same, as in the Germans can’t win and they Summer offensive is stopped. The Red army take more losses anf the Heer less, but the final result is the same.


The after battle reports about the Panther show some disturbing facts....
While the armor and the gun work even better than expected, several tanks caught fire without apparent reason.(like in OTL the fuel and oil lines are insufficiently protected).
Also, the rangefinder and the partial stabilization of the gun are fragile, and degrade fast after some time in combat.
Protection against close infantry attack is also low...
The Panther is a much more complex tank to operate than the III and IV models, and the amount of training of the crews is considered no enough...
The turret must turns faster or enemy T-34 can easily gain access to undefended sides...


The ‘fixed’ model – named Panther B (not using the confusing D-A-G-F of OTL)
Redesigned drive train design to change out the gears on the final drive to the drive wheel to not be need to disassemble the drivers and mg gunners positions to get to the gearbox.
Reinforced rangefinder and stabilization of the main gun.
Redesign of the fuel/oil lines to be more protected.
Adding the Nahverteidigungswaffe (90mm NbK 39 close-in defense weapon)
Changing the system that turns the turret, speeding it up to 25s full turn (Sherman is 15s)
Adding an remotely controlled MG34/42 mounted on the roof, with 360 degrees rotation for local defense. The machine gun had a 50-round drum magazine and could be aimed and fired from inside the vehicle. However, the loader was then exposed to enemy fire for reloading. (As in the late model Hetzers in OTL).
Adding skirts of armor.
All these changes put 1 ton more in the design, the new height is 51 tons.
Bad news is that Maybach can't get the promised new engine in production.
The Panther B weapons
1 88L71 Gun - 50 rounds
3 MG 34 (1 roof / 1 turret / 1 front glacis) - 5100 rounds
1 Nahverteidigungswaffe (? rounds)

Production changed to this model in January 1944.

 

[informationfan]

Part II - First battles / First lessons.


At time of the Kursk battle, german armored production is:


StuG IV with 105mm howitzer (StuH42 as OTL)
Hummel – 155mm howitzer
Jagdpanzer IV 75L48
Panzer IV – 75L48
Panzer V Panther – 88L71


All except the panther are build using the common panzer iv chassis, simplifying production.
Some ideas to upgrade the JagdPanzer to the 75L70 are studied, but the conclusion is that for now the 75L48 is capable of killing all soviet tanks (as mid 43) and because the L70 use a different type of ammo, (Panzer IV, pak40 and Jagpanzer IV use same ammo) and also because is judged not possible to up-gun the Panzer IV to the L70 gun, the 75L70 is passed away again.


At this time (July 43 – battle of Kursk as in OTL), the soviet tanks are the KV-1 / 2 and the T-34/76 with the 76mm F34 model that have difficulty to penetrate the Panther armor – but capable of deal with the panzer IV. The KV-2 use an massive 152mm howitzer that can do immense damage but is weak in AP.


In the end, and because various reasons, the final result of the Kursk battle is the same, as in the Germans can’t win and they Summer offensive is stopped. The Red army take more losses anf the Heer less, but the final result is the same.


The after battle reports about the Panther show some disturbing facts....
While the armor and the gun work even better than expected, several tanks caught fire without apparent reason.(like in OTL the fuel and oil lines are insufficiently protected).
Also, the rangefinder and the partial stabilization of the gun are fragile, and degrade fast after some time in combat.
Protection against close infantry attack is also low...
The Panther is a much more complex tank to operate than the III and IV models, and the amount of training of the crews is considered no enough...
The turret must turns faster or enemy T-34 can easily gain access to undefended sides...


The ‘fixed’ model – named Panther B (not using the confusing D-A-G-F of OTL)
Reinforced rangefinder and stabilization of the main gun.
Redesign of the fuel/oil lines to be more protected.
Adding the Nahverteidigungswaffe (90mm NbK 39 close-in defense weapon)
Changing the system that turns the turret, speeding it up to 25s full turn (Sherman is 15s)
Adding an remotely controlled MG34/42 mounted on the roof, with 360 degrees rotation for local defense. The machine gun had a 50-round drum magazine and could be aimed and fired from inside the vehicle. However, the loader was then exposed to enemy fire for reloading. (As in the late model Hetzers in OTL).
Adding skirts of armor.
All these changes put 1 ton more in the design, the new height is 51 tons.
Bad news is that Maybach can't get the promised new engine in production.

Hi,

some problems
a.) the germans mostly had Mark3 and Mark4 (less!), the main battle tank was the Mark3j/h, followed by the Mark4g/h, only a few panthers (basically 2 units) and some tigers...

b.) the russians had mostly t34 and smaller t70... this wasn´t the Tiger clash t34-fightings... this happend, but not like it is seen by so many people...

c.) if the germans have only the tanks you described, they will win that battle - cause if they use these things, they win (or - if you avoid this, cause of technical problems) the german losses are higher

d.) the real combat losses for kursk are very single sided, the germans lost around 1 tank to 7-9 russian tanks, if the germans loose less and the russians more we are with 1:10, 1:11,
so why should they loose?

so please keep in mind, most tanklosses for the germans had been mark3, for the russians T70 and T34, some KV...
the germans lost also 90 panthers, most could be recovered and repaired, so no total losses...

but if the germans loose the same way they loose after kursk, they will loose a lot panthers, cause they aren´t really reliable at this moment - but - biggest NO - no 88L71 is possible in a panter turret... no space for this

 

[paulo]

a) - The change to IV from III is made in the end of 41 - so in 43 - they have no III - converted to StugIII, and plenty of IV g/h

b) - The new Panther just entered service, so at Kursk is almost IV g/h and some V against t-34 / kv-1 / kv-2 / t-70

c) - germans at this time use StugIII (old)/ IV, Panzer IV, JgdPz IV, Hummel, and some Panzer V (new)

d) - they have less units than in OTL - better but less - and the stop of german offensive is enough to be a defeat for germany - even with less losses more damage to other side - don't forget also that at this time the WA invade Italy, germany need to move troops for that theater of operations....

ITTL, the majority of german losses are IV models and some V (reported in the part II) because close assaults and fire.....

And finally - this is not the OTL Panther - is a tank in the 50 tons class that is designed from the beginning (end 41 - beginning 42) to get the 88L71 (that as designed in the same time) - so nor the OTL panther nor the OTL KwK43 - similar but not the same.....

 

[Tursiops Amicus]

Besides sloped armor, increased mobility and a decent gun, one of the main advantages of T-34 over Pzkw III and Pzkw IV is the ease of production

OTL was planned for simplifying production, but is yet over-engineered as most german tanks

What Germany really needed is a sort of Pzkw IV with the T-34 characteristics of sloped armor and mobility, with a Kwk 40 (75L48 model) that was powerful enough until the appearance of JS-2 and much more range for greater strategic mobility (operational range of T-34 more than twice of Panther and Pz IV)

I mention strategic mobility because is the means that could allow to the numerically inferior german panzers to counter Soviet offensives

Tiger and Panther (neither TTL Panther) can't do that because their low range, their low reliability and because are gas guzzlers that need an enormous supply train that can be easily attacked by air. This, lack of fuel, is the one of the main causes of tank losses for Germany, because a immobile tank is defenseless

 

[paulo]

Besides sloped armor, increased mobility and a decent gun, one of the main advantages of T-34 over Pzkw III and Pzkw IV is the ease of production

OTL was planned for simplifying production, but is yet over-engineered as most german tanks

What Germany really needed is a sort of Pzkw IV with the T-34 characteristics of sloped armor and mobility, with a Kwk 40 (75L48 model) that was powerful enough until the appearance of JS-2 and much more range for greater strategic mobility (operational range of T-34 more than twice of Panther and Pz IV)

I mention strategic mobility because is the means that could allow to the numerically inferior german panzers to counter Soviet offensives

Tiger and Panther (neither TTL Panther) can't do that because their low range, their low reliability and because are gas guzzlers that need an enormous supply train that can be easily attacked by air. This, lack of fuel, is the one of the main causes of tank losses for Germany, because a immobile tank is defenseless

All right points, but that is if germany do the right thing and build the improved panzer IV... ITTL they do a better Panther - so no change in the war...

 

[paulo]

Part III – From Jan 44 to Overlord - the good times

Part III – From Jan 44 to Overlord


Starting January 1944, the first Panthers B start to arrive to the front lines. Because the WFront is at this time, Italy, and that region is not good for tanks, Germany put almost no Panthers there, using instead, the reliable Panzer IV H , StuG and JagdPanzers. So, until Normandy, the Wallies have almost no information on the Panthers....
In the soviet front, until the emergence of the T-34-85 and the JS-2, the Panther reign as the supreme tank... in small numbers (compared to the quantity of the tanks of the Red Army), and slowly improving in reliability – it excel in defense, but the continuous moving from place to place put a big dent in parts.... and that is only improved with the new B model that is much more reliable than the older one.
The B model, while less expensive than the OTL Tiger, is more than the OTL Panther G – the result of be bigger, more armored and better armed, and the net result is that while the production is better than OTL, the difference is not so big as to make a real impact in the war...
In the large plains of Russia, is common for Panthers to kill T-34 a 2000m+ and with the improved B, some elite crews get kills at more than 3000m.
While one problem of all high power guns is that they generate a lot of dust with each shot, the range advantage permit the Panthers to shot several times before need to change position.
Most of the times, an advancing T-34 force first detection of Panthers, is the dust of the shots and the death of some of then....followed by the cries “Panther ! Charge !” and “do svidaniya Motherland”...

 

[AdA]

MB panther

Why not just build this?
Daimler Benz Panther project. Diesel engine, easy to build, 75mmL70...

 

[paulo]

Because is almost a perfect copy of the T-34 and that don't go well with Nazi ego, lol.....
Also, is very easy to confound one for the other with um-pleasant results.

 

[sharlin]

Ahh yes the German T-34 clone, I think that design was forbidden because it looked like the T-34 and in hitlers bat shite crazy eyes probably saw that as paying the russians a compliment.

 

[paulo]

One nasty result of Germany don't put anything bigger than the Pz IV in Italy, is that the Firefly is not build - the WA don't see the need of tanks better armed than the basic Sherman - and that is going to be a rude surprise in Normandy.....

 

[Sior]

Why not just build this?
Daimler Benz Panther project. Diesel engine, easy to build, 75mmL70...

All the German tanks after the PanzerIV had those bloody awful interwived road wheels. I watched a programme about overhauling tanks and they mentioned that this feature was the most hated by the crews.
In Russia in the winter snow or mud would freeze in between them and the wheels would not turn. To change a damaged inner wheel 4 others had to be removed.

 

[paulo]

All the German tanks after the PanzerIV had those bloody awful interwived road wheels. I watched a programme about overhauling tanks and they mentioned that this feature was the most hated by the crews.
In Russia in the winter snow or mud would freeze in between them and the wheels would not turn. To change a damaged inner wheel 4 others had to be removed.

Yep, the plus side is that put less pressure in each road wheel....

ITTL, the number of Panthers - mostly B, and a few C (see later) in Normandy is about 45% of the total panzer force and not 30% (of a total of 2300) as in OTL - so, ITTL about a thousand Panzer V are in the area in June 44.....