The Rivers of War & The Arkansas War by Eric Flint

To me these two books are some of the most original AH on the market, at least in terms of US AH. Here is a brief timeline that summarizes the books:

1814: Lieutenant Samuel Houston and Sergeant Patrick Driscoll organize a ragtag assortment of military forces in a successful repulsion of British forces at the Battle of the Capitol in Washington DC. Samuel Houston becomes a hero of the War of 1812 and very influential in the backrooms of the federal government.

1815: Colonel Samuel Houston and Sergeant Patrick Driscoll, alongside a contingent of Cherokee warriors and a battalion of Freedmen artillery demolish the British flanking attack at the Battle of New Orleans, forcing the British to retreat without engaging in a full scale assault on the battlements of General Andrew Jackson.

1818: Commissioner of Indian Affairs Samuel Houston negotiates the Treaty of Oothcaloga with the nations of the Cherokee, Creek, and Choctaw. This treaty establishes the whole of Arkansas Territory as an independent and recognized country in which the main Native American tribes are to relocate with substantial government financial assistance. Though this amounts to surrendering their homelands of several centuries, the tribal leaderships understand that this is their best chance for national survival.
Patrick Driscoll, having married into a powerful Cherokee clan, is elected the Principal Chief of the new Arkansas Confederacy. The lands of the country are assigned to the various tribes, with the easternmost territory, the Arkansas Chiefdom, established as a federal territory open to all tribes and utilized as a capitol, a buffer with the United States, and a processing center for settlers.

1819: Violence erupts in Louisiana between Freedmen war veterans and slave owners, resulting in the “Algiers Massacre,” a battle in which the Louisiana militia is defeated by the war veterans. Thousands of Freedmen flee the state for the Arkansas Confederacy, where Principal Chief Driscoll allows them to settle.

1819-21: Most slave states enact Freedmen Exclusion Laws, forcing Freedmen to vacate their homes within a year. By the end of 1821 the Freedmen population of the Arkansas Confederacy numbers in the tens of thousands.


1824: The election year is particularly heated, as the previous collapse of the Federalists had left the United States as an accidental one-party state, and then a country without any unified party. Two major issues dominate the election year: the pro-industry “American System” of legislation and ideology promoted by Speaker of the House Henry Clay, and increasing agitation between the slavocrats of the southern states and the embarrassingly successful and multiracial Arkansas Confederacy.
A large filibuster, secretly funded by Henry Clay, assaults the Arkansas Confederacy, massacring and enslaving dozens of Freedmen, Native Americans, and abolitionist white settlers. The large and professional Arkansas Army led by Principal Chief Patrick Driscoll and General Charles Ball (former Freedman artillery sergeant) demolishes the filibuster army. The killing in the “Battle of Arkansas Post” of hundreds of whites by hundreds of well-armed Freedmen and Native Americans causes panic and outrage in the pro-slavery and western areas of the United States.
The Electoral College of the Presidential election splits five ways between war hero Senator Andrew Jackson, Secretary of State and son of a former president John Quincy Adams, Speaker of the House Henry Clay, Secretary of the Treasury William Crawford, and pro-slavery activist Senator John Calhoun.

1825: Henry Clay is elected the seventh President of the United States, despite his distant third-place finish in the Electoral College, by coercing a specific minority of Representatives capable of returning a majority of block-votes to vote for him. The main price for his election is to launch an invasion of the Arkansas Confederacy.
During an assassination attempt by a radically racist Georgian on Commissioner of Indian Affairs Samuel Houston, his wife, who is also the daughter of former President James Monroe, is killed. This incident provokes a major wave of anti-slavery fervor in the northeastern United States.
Andrew Jackson, John Quincy Adams, and others found a new political party, the National Democratic Republicans. The political party promotes that each state rescind all discriminatory laws aimed at Freedmen, including laws against voting and racial intermarriage. The party also promotes a gradual manumission scheme for each state to enact individually, based on the scheme utilized by New York.
At the “Second” Battle of Arkansas Post, an army under General William Henry Harrison is mauled by the Arkansas Army, with the Georgian militia almost completely slaughtered, but the United States forces seize the fortress as their first foothold in the Arkansas War. Several thousand abolitionists supply weapons and supplies to Arkansas, with hundreds of men moving to the country to fight against “The Slave Power” that they perceive as destroying the soul of the United States from within.
 
Yeah, I read both of em. Too bad Flint hasn't even begun writing the sequel yet.

Rivers of War's POD is very subtle, it took me awhile to even figure out what it was.

The Arkansas War well... President Henry Clay and Secretary of War John Calhoun is scary enough. Throw a Black majority nation in the mix and well.. no wonder Calhoun's banging the war drum.

Really up in the air how this series is going to end. Really did like William Henry Harrison as a minor character in the second book.
 
More on the Story... and Where would it Go?

Interesting side-note, Eric Flint mentions at the end of the first novel that he created this timeline on a dare to prevent the Trail of Tears. Anyways, I have to admit that the rapidity at which the Arkansas Confederacy is established stretches the limits of plausibility, but with Flint's excellent prose I was totally hooked by it.


So, some of the major goals of Flint's timeline seem to be an earlier end to not just Slavery, but Racism as well in the United States... though at the end of the second book the only chance the Arkansas Confederacy has to survive seems to be to hold on and hope that Andrew Jackson, John Quincy Adams, William M Johnson and the rest of the National Democrats can bust out in the midterm elections of 1826 in order to end the tenuous Congressional support for the war; it is rather clear that Henry Clay will not be a two-term president.

Whether or not the Arkansas Confederacy survives, the inhumane treatment of many Freedmen and Natives by occupying forces during and after the war will fan the flames of an early abolitionist movement which in turn could provoke an early Civil War... which the "North" might not win.

Anyways, sorry if I spoiled the story for anybody. And I would ABSOLUTELY love to hear ANY COMMENTS from people who have read these books before, or who have any (constructive) comments on Flint's timeline and where it is headed.
 

The Sandman

Banned
What I'm actually looking forward to, especially given that I'm reading American Lion right now, is the likely Jackson Presidency of 1828. Given the importance of his 8 years in OTL, I do wonder how the future development of the US will be affected by the changes in the nature of his political views (to say nothing of the altered political situation). There are also liable to be effects elsewhere in the Western Hemisphere; Mexico, for example, is almost certainly going to see the sequence of events that led to the loss of the northern third of the country butterflied away. Given that Sam Houston will obviously not be involved in the rebellion (which probably will still occur, things haven't changed quite enough to prevent that), they might not even lose Texas.

Of course, I would find it vastly amusing if the Arkansas Confederacy were ultimately to seize Texas, with their army led by Sam Houston. But maybe the alternative would be using any reparations they might get from the US due to the unjust nature of the conflict to purchase some of Texas instead. :D
 
I hadn't thought of Arkansas "purchasing" some of Texas. That's a fascinating possibility since it would open up land for settlement by the ever-increasing population of freed slaves.

On the other hand I see it likely that the US will occupy most of Arkansas by 1827, with guerilla fighting creating a serious ulcer for the Clay Administration. Unfortunately, it seems to me that the war won't end until President Jackson has the army removed in spring of 1829. Arkansas wouldn't be in pretty shape.:(

And once Jackson is reelected and the anti-slavery National Democrats hold a majority of Congress, seven or eight of the Slave States might secede in 1833...
 
Arkansas pretty much caught between the Hammer and the Anvil right now. Assuming they even survive this war, expansion into Mexican territory is questionable at best. This is supposed to be an Indian nation in theory.

Between Taylor's fort in the north and Harrison's army occupying Arkansas Post, Arkansas is in a sorry shape right now. Driscol and Houston will probably offer battle between New Antrim and the Post, they pretty much have to, but the city probably will fall in the next book.

Taylor will almost certainly begin moving towards Fort of 98. As his force is smaller, Arkansas may well stop him. Driscol mentioned he had five regiments total, and only two were used at Second Arkansas Post. So it's very possible the Arkansas forces may very well beat Taylor's single regiment and militia force. Even so, Taylor's no fool so be may just be content to be the Anvil, while Harrison is the Hammer. We'll probably see Sheffield Parker on this front since the terms of his exchange were not to fight on the southern front for a year.

Harrison's no fool either and will learn from the lessions of the last battle. Houston pulling some San Jacinto like miracle is really their only hope. That or some sort of guerrila campaign in the Ozarks. It was mentioned that the Arkansas will live or die in those mountains.

My guess is, Clay's followers get trumped during the midterm elections and support for the war goes even further down. Calhoun may very well be intrument in raising some southern regiments though.
 
Another possibility (I really love these two books) is that the northern states might very well secede. Flint has laid the groundwork in the book for a very divided nation, with considerable hostility developing against the war in the northern states, not to mention volunteers actually rushing to Arkansas to help defend it.
 
I really wish Flint would continue thiese, they really are interesting.

It's been a while since I read the books, but I could've sworn that the war was at a stalemate since Arkansas defensive line allowed them to hold against the US since they can't bring enough forces to breakthrough without some absurd scenario involving marshal law in the Northwest.
 

Thande

Donor
I wrote some reviews a while back. I think they're very original AH concepts tainted by Flint's very black-and-white approach (no pun intended) to morality: people or nations he likes can do no wrong, and ones he doesn't can do no right.
 
I wrote some reviews a while back. I think they're very original AH concepts tainted by Flint's very black-and-white approach (no pun intended) to morality: people or nations he likes can do no wrong, and ones he doesn't can do no right.

Sort of why I hate a lot of characters in the 1632verse. Especially the liberal high school teacher.
 

Thande

Donor
Sort of why I hate a lot of characters in the 1632verse. Especially the liberal high school teacher.

Absolutely. The only reason the 1632verse is tolerable now is there are other authors to moderate Flint's crap (though he can certainly write well, he's just so ideologically tainted that it's hard to read it without throwing up).

I did start a parody of 1632 a while back aimed at those tendencies though I haven't updated for a long time.
 
Compared to near and real faschism found in many other Baen books authors... Its nice to see someone a tiny bit left from the center. But to US (and UK ! :eek:) folks that pure communism levels.
 
Absolutely. The only reason the 1632verse is tolerable now is there are other authors to moderate Flint's crap (though he can certainly write well, he's just so ideologically tainted that it's hard to read it without throwing up).

I did start a parody of 1632 a while back aimed at those tendencies though I haven't updated for a long time.

Too bad most of these co authored stuff is by Demarce, who can't write. Flint should either stay with Weber to work on 1632stuff or come back to wrting this TL.
 

Markus

Banned
Absolutely. The only reason the 1632verse is tolerable now is there are other authors to moderate Flint's crap (though he can certainly write well, he's just so ideologically tainted that it's hard to read it without throwing up).

I did start a parody of 1632 a while back aimed at those tendencies though I haven't updated for a long time.


Ahh another satisfied reader of "The Dreeson Incedent" I presume? 1632 and 1633 were not just very entertaining, but refreshingly un-american as far as AH goes. No trace of uptime American politics like in the Honorverse. Now this crap is all over the series, the once loyal opposition of intelligent honourable men is a bunch of stupid and corrupt reactionaries.
 
Ahh another satisfied reader of "The Dreeson Incedent" I presume? 1632 and 1633 were not just very entertaining, but refreshingly un-american as far as AH goes. No trace of uptime American politics like in the Honorverse. Now this crap is all over the series, the once loyal opposition of intelligent honourable men is a bunch of stupid and corrupt reactionaries.
To be fair, stupid and corrupt reactionaries are certainly going to exist in a scenario like that, but the story would benefit from having some intelligent opponents within the USE and East Virginian governments.
 
Arkansas pretty much caught between the Hammer and the Anvil right now. Assuming they even survive this war, expansion into Mexican territory is questionable at best. This is supposed to be an Indian nation in theory.

There are indians in Mexico.
 

Thande

Donor
Compared to near and real faschism found in many other Baen books authors... Its nice to see someone a tiny bit left from the center. But to US (and UK ! :eek:) folks that pure communism levels.

People keep saying Flint is left of centre, but there's just no way he looks it from a British perspective. Yeah okay there's all the unions and so on but his attitude to gun ownership (I know it's a big gulf in opinion generally) is matched only by the furthest far right party in the UK (who are also economically socialist, so...)

Too bad most of these co authored stuff is by Demarce, who can't write. Flint should either stay with Weber to work on 1632stuff or come back to wrting this TL.

I like Demarce's stuff. Sure it reads like a textbook but at least she treats the down-timers like real human beings.
 
An early ACW would be an ironic twist with the slave owners dramatically expanding the US Army which can then be used against them.
 
People keep saying Flint is left of centre, but there's just no way he looks it from a British perspective. Yeah okay there's all the unions and so on but his attitude to gun ownership (I know it's a big gulf in opinion generally) is matched only by the furthest far right party in the UK (who are also economically socialist, so...)
Flint's views remind me of the old-school UAW Democrats, a solidly working-class bunch who are all into trade Unions and probably know someone who participated in one of the 1930s sit-down strikes. It's a weird comination of far-leftist thought combined with blue-collar mentalities that takes rhetoric about the working man and the power of the lower classes seriously.
 
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I like Demarce's stuff. Sure it reads like a textbook but at least she treats the down-timers like real human beings.[/quote]

too bad the plots are cheesy Italian romance or meandering short stories strung together. I'd prefer a Conclave with political infighting or staying with the same characters. Which is related to my biggest problem with 1632 in that there are way too many characters, and he needs to kil some of them off.
 
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