The Rebirth of the Ottoman Empire
- Thread starter Onkel Willie
- Start date
It's more of a North Korea-style Britain.
As for a map, I'll have to ask Arkhangelsk.
Did some ask for a map?
At the behest of Onkel Willie and all others who wanted a map, here it is!
Now this one is preliminary because I want your guy's feedback on it, specifically regarding:
The coloration of Socialist Britain
Status of Canada, Australia and remaining African colonies
Relationship between Mongolia and China
Status of Indochina
and anything else I forgot to mention
EDIT: Fixed Botswana and Malawi
At the behest of Onkel Willie and all others who wanted a map, here it is!
Now this one is preliminary because I want your guy's feedback on it, specifically regarding:
The coloration of Socialist Britain
Status of Canada, Australia and remaining African colonies
Relationship between Mongolia and China
Status of Indochina
and anything else I forgot to mention
EDIT: Fixed Botswana and Malawi
Last edited:
I'd think that if Bengal gets independence then there'd be some form of West Panistan that extends towards the Punjab and the Indus.
Don Grey
Banned
AH has gotten nothing from what i can see and how did the germans get all the way to north werstern caucasus shouldnt that have been ottoman to get a land rout to crimea?But i do like how japan has grown.France has realy gotten screwd over france is no nothing more then a rump state its kinda sad. But i cant understand how italy can take all of southern france like that thats quite a chunck could they hold it. And prestige of the caliphat has grown imensly would that be a problam for the people that controle algeria and morroco.Also does any one know the extent of ottomans control of the worlds oil and natural gass supply is can any one give a persentige? I must add i like what you have dont with scandanavia but one question are the danish scandanavians i ask because could the new scandanavian union add denmark and iceland to the union in time.
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Let me give you some suggestions...
The coloration of socialist Britain is fine. I'm not sure whether leaving Russia gold is a good idea, but if not, it should probably be some kind of darker red.
As for the colonies, including Indochina, I edited your map somewhat to propose a settlement which divides them between Germany and Italy, throwing a bone to the Dutch too. It also removes the border in Xinjiang, makes Korea directly annexed by Japan (why would it not happen, after all?), gives Hongkong to China as it's very close to them and they would likely annex it, and gives the French and Dutch possessions in the Caribbean to the US since they're likely to have conquered them (the former only after it became clear that France was going to be in the German sphere of influence post-war), and with Britain weakened, they are the most likely candidates to seize them. Eternally annoying Monroe doctrine playing up, you know.
This is my map proposal:
The coloration of socialist Britain is fine. I'm not sure whether leaving Russia gold is a good idea, but if not, it should probably be some kind of darker red.
As for the colonies, including Indochina, I edited your map somewhat to propose a settlement which divides them between Germany and Italy, throwing a bone to the Dutch too. It also removes the border in Xinjiang, makes Korea directly annexed by Japan (why would it not happen, after all?), gives Hongkong to China as it's very close to them and they would likely annex it, and gives the French and Dutch possessions in the Caribbean to the US since they're likely to have conquered them (the former only after it became clear that France was going to be in the German sphere of influence post-war), and with Britain weakened, they are the most likely candidates to seize them. Eternally annoying Monroe doctrine playing up, you know.
This is my map proposal:
Wouldn't the Asian territories be better off independent? I mean, the Ceylon (or Sri Lanka - whatever it is at this point) wouldn't be too happy about becoming someone else's colony if India is independent, as with Burma. I can't see the Italians being capable of holding such huge colonial gains, especially in Indochina.
But how bad is revolutionary activity ITTL? Also, you missed British Guyana and Northern Ireland.
Don Grey
Banned
The Ottomans don't have enough for you?
Its more then enough its just the iceing on the cake.
And seeing as how the ottoman kicked ass and took names in this TL is that going to be puting presure on your TL Because the longer you wait the greater our expectations get.Don Grey
Banned
Ottoman Hyderabad, Bengal and Sinkiang?
Can we call it a wank now?
Yes ofcourse. But dont say it outloud you will spoil the mood.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
Its more then enough its just the iceing on the cake.
Well, prepare yourself for the Ottomans having a lot less than that. But more Zeppelins.
First of all, keep in mind that it's just a proposal, okay? Onkel Willie is the official TL writer, Arkhangelsk the offical map maker of this TL. I was just giving some ideas.
I never said it would last long. The map just proposes that these colonies are formally ceded to the Germans/Italians/Dutch at the peace treaty, not that they are actually ever controlled. Most likely, a few years later, the Alliance powers are going to have to let these colonies go officially (even if they've had de facto independence for a while by then)
Look at what they held in Onkel Willies 'Twin Eagles and the Lion' TL. Compared to that, this is a meagre reward. But, yeah, I don't expect them to hang onto them for long.
Good question, and not mine to answer. I thought that, with the British home island being in revolt, they're going to have a hard time holding onto Asian possessions.
No, I did not. British Guyana was something that I purposely left British on the map as it is easier to hold onto than the other colonies. That said, the US influence there is likely going to be big, and I'm not sure what Onkel Willie would say about it, but I think they are going to be a US puppet upon independence (if they get it ITTL, of course).
As for Northern Ireland, Onkel Willie established it at part of the British government-in-exile, and it is something that democratic Britain is not going to let go. Giving up their last solid foothold in Europe? They'd have to be out of their mind for that.
Then, for a question to Onkel Willie: what happened to the Channel Islands, and the island that you mentioned being occupied by Germany? Do they go to Germany? The Dutch? Left with the British? Or maybe even given to the French? I'm not sure whether the Allies would like to see them in the hands of socialist Britain.
I never said it would last long. The map just proposes that these colonies are formally ceded to the Germans/Italians/Dutch at the peace treaty, not that they are actually ever controlled. Most likely, a few years later, the Alliance powers are going to have to let these colonies go officially (even if they've had de facto independence for a while by then)
Look at what they held in Onkel Willies 'Twin Eagles and the Lion' TL. Compared to that, this is a meagre reward. But, yeah, I don't expect them to hang onto them for long.
Good question, and not mine to answer. I thought that, with the British home island being in revolt, they're going to have a hard time holding onto Asian possessions.
No, I did not. British Guyana was something that I purposely left British on the map as it is easier to hold onto than the other colonies. That said, the US influence there is likely going to be big, and I'm not sure what Onkel Willie would say about it, but I think they are going to be a US puppet upon independence (if they get it ITTL, of course).
As for Northern Ireland, Onkel Willie established it at part of the British government-in-exile, and it is something that democratic Britain is not going to let go. Giving up their last solid foothold in Europe? They'd have to be out of their mind for that.
Then, for a question to Onkel Willie: what happened to the Channel Islands, and the island that you mentioned being occupied by Germany? Do they go to Germany? The Dutch? Left with the British? Or maybe even given to the French? I'm not sure whether the Allies would like to see them in the hands of socialist Britain.
In this TL the Italians have performed better and on the winning side of the wars. Theoretically, this should mean a stronger nation.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
Italy's main colonies, though, are populous and all capable of very serious and sustained resistance. Algeria brought down France, and Vietnam brought down the USA, Somalia caused the British & Italians 20 years of difficult resistance, and Ethiopia was also endless trouble.
Winning war doesn't necessarily make you stronger nation - it just means you won a war. That can have some positive effects, but it can also have negative ones, if victory causes you to take on new obligations that are liabilities. Britain's acquisition of the Middle East in WWI is a good example - it severely weakened the British Empire. Likewise, Austria-Hungary's acquisition of Bosnia, while not due to its own victory, started that empire's death-spiral.
Alright, last update, sort of an epilogue for y'all.
The dawn of the 1960s heralded a new age. Ever since the 1950s the European powers had been fighting colonial ‘brush wars’ as they were often known which were becoming a drain. Germany was fighting a particularly brutal war in the Congo which was wanted for its rubber, diamonds and gold, but in Germany protests were rising and in other European countries too. Europe saw the rise of youth movements, often leftwing in nature and also with some New Age and neo-pagan tendencies. These movements protested increasingly against the needless deaths of many youths for a distant colonial empire that they neither wanted nor needed. Initially, the response of the Imperial regime under Emperor Wilhelm IV was to crush these protests and dismiss them as communist sedition. Indeed, communist parties all over the world, even the isolated British one, formed a united front against colonialism and imperialism. Britain, Russia and China supported anti-colonial guerrilla efforts worldwide with tacit US support. They sent weapons, training, military advisors and funds to keep up the efforts against the Europeans even as the latter resorted to chemical weapons and deportations.
At certain points even the Ottoman Empire openly declared their opposition to colonialism when the Muslim population in Africa came under threat. In places like Algeria, Morocco and other parts of Saharan Africa Muslims were by far the largest population group. The Ottomans did not support anti-colonialism like China, Russia and Britain did, but these statements did lead to Muslims worldwide focusing on their caliph for help. Starting in the mid-1960s, the colonies were slowly but surely released from European rule. Asian colonies were left and those in Africa a few years later, but not before a lot of bloodshed and violence had already been perpetrated by all parties involved. This led to a host of new countries in Africa and Asia which were all weakened and poverty stricken due to years of war and so they were easily taken over by dictators. Britain’s colonies were already de facto independent ever since the early 1950s. The British government-in-exile had used the military units overseas, which had mostly remained loyal, to keep these colonies at bay. They hadn’t been successful and their de jure independence was finally recognised in the late 50s and early 60s. A blow to the Queen and her government’s efforts had been India’s independence because it was not only the Crown Jewel of the Empire, but also because a lot of the Royal Navy had been stationed there since the British Revolution. The Indians interned these ships to form the Navy of the Republic of India. This was grudgingly accepted because it made India a major regional power in one blow and a buffer to the Ottomans who held sway over the Muslim populace of Southeast Asia. India had since seen heavy US investment much like China which led to rapid economic development. India’s supplies of natural gas, petroleum, coal, titanium, iron ore and other resources were developed and the cash influx from America was used for rapid expansion of the infrastructure. India had enmity with China, but shelved this due to their larger enmity toward the Ottoman Empire, thus creating a modus vivendi between the two Asian giants. India and China managed to reach first world standards by the early 1970s and achieve nuclear weapons by the 1960s after Japan had done so first. The de facto independent colonies of Britain’s government-in-exile in Canada had received support in turn from India and China. This made sure that these new countries did better than those that had chafed under German or Italian rule, or Mozambique which still suffered from Portuguese oppression that wouldn’t end until the 1970s.
In the meantime a new prestige project had arisen for the great powers to play with: the space race. Rockets had been considered toys from scientists, but during and after the war they had gained increasing interest for their use as weapons. Now, “space exploration was the new imperialism” as one communist once put it. Germany managed to put a satellite into space in 1958 and brought a man into orbit in 1960. The Ottomans ventured into space themselves and actually beat the other powers to the moon in 1966, planting the Porte’s flag there as well as a declaration written by Mehmed VII himself declaring it “a triumph not only for Islam, but for humankind” as well. They did extensive research into Mars and the Jovian and Saturnian moons. Especially Europa, Jupiter’s ice covered moon, was highly interesting because its hypothetical oceans could possibly sustain extraterrestrial life and of course possess oil. Germany, in the meantime, sent probes to Venus only to discover it was a hot, barren and desolate wasteland where life was impossible. Germany, Austria and the Ottomans jointly built a space station and set up a lunar base with a permanent crew of ten in 1970. It was powered by solar panels and a nuclear reactor. It had a hydroponics bay and laboratory with the best equipment available at the time. These moves were of course parried by the Americans with their Russian, Chinese and Indian allies following suit. All these countries would establish lunar bases in the 1970s and 1980s and make space the battleground of the future.
Fortunately, in the mid 1970s, a period of thaw took place with the issue of decolonization largely settled, thus ending the frosty period from 1945 to the early 1970s. the colonial empires had fallen apart although Germany still controlled Europe and the Ottomans the Middle East. This mattered less as the United States and its allies had rigorously spent money on developing coal, nuclear energy, wind and solar power as alternatives and because India and China had risen as major trading partners. The relevance of Europe declined and the Ottomans suffered a slight dent, but gasoline was still fuel of choice number one in the world and so the Ottoman chokehold weakened only slightly. Moreover, the Ottoman economy had diversified into sectors other than petroleum such as mining, banking, services, solar energy, highly advanced farming techniques and advanced electronics. Also, it had the mineral riches of Turkestan at its disposal which would make both countries rich. The only country which maintained heavy militarization was Britain which hardly changed after Seward’s death in 1976. It turned more isolationist, totalitarian, poor, militaristic and paranoid, thus making it the world’s pariah state.
According to the 2009 census, the Ottoman Empire had some 420 million inhabitants then giving it third place behind China and India only and above the US. The Ottoman Empire’s GDP per capita is the world’s highest and it has a high living standard with free education and healthcare. The Empire maintains an army of some 2.5 million men in peacetime and utterly dominates the Muslim world. Even non-aligned countries such as Algeria, Morocco, Malaysia and Indonesia follow the lead of the caliph in Constantinople in many matters and together the Muslim world is a force to be reckoned with. When Mehmed VII died he left the Ottoman Empire the dominant power in the world, a super power. His reign had spanned from 1926, when he was crowned Sultan at the age of 14, to 1997 when he died at the age of 85. His over seven decade long reign had been the most fruitful of those of all Sultans since Suleiman I the Magnificent in the sixteenth century. Mehmed left a dominion with many vassal states which spanned from the Danube to the Indus and from the Volga to the Indian Ocean. The economy was flourishing, the populace satisfied, highly educated and healthy, and militarily only few powers dared to challenge the Sultan’s will. Nuclear power and space travel were also no issue for the Sublime Porte which could now call itself truly Sublime. The Ottoman Empire had been reborn and had ascended to super power status after a long way up since 1878 which had proven a turning point. The late 17th, 18th and 19th centuries up to 1878 were now known as the Dark Centuries of the Empire. They were over and no one dared to call the Ottoman Empire the ‘sick man of Europe’ anymore.
Mehmed VII’s successor was crowned Osman IV, after the founder of the dynasty, and he would continue to command world affairs from the city founded by Constantine the Great, in reference to the might of the ancient Roman Empire which had done the same eons ago and the Ottomans alluded to this heritage. They had inherited the world from Rome after its fall, not the west, and it seems more true than ever now. The Empire dwarfs the Alexandrian and Roman empires and truly is the most powerful country in existence.
Chapter VIII: Decolonization, Space Race and the Ascendance of the Ottoman Empire, 1960 – 2010.
The dawn of the 1960s heralded a new age. Ever since the 1950s the European powers had been fighting colonial ‘brush wars’ as they were often known which were becoming a drain. Germany was fighting a particularly brutal war in the Congo which was wanted for its rubber, diamonds and gold, but in Germany protests were rising and in other European countries too. Europe saw the rise of youth movements, often leftwing in nature and also with some New Age and neo-pagan tendencies. These movements protested increasingly against the needless deaths of many youths for a distant colonial empire that they neither wanted nor needed. Initially, the response of the Imperial regime under Emperor Wilhelm IV was to crush these protests and dismiss them as communist sedition. Indeed, communist parties all over the world, even the isolated British one, formed a united front against colonialism and imperialism. Britain, Russia and China supported anti-colonial guerrilla efforts worldwide with tacit US support. They sent weapons, training, military advisors and funds to keep up the efforts against the Europeans even as the latter resorted to chemical weapons and deportations.
At certain points even the Ottoman Empire openly declared their opposition to colonialism when the Muslim population in Africa came under threat. In places like Algeria, Morocco and other parts of Saharan Africa Muslims were by far the largest population group. The Ottomans did not support anti-colonialism like China, Russia and Britain did, but these statements did lead to Muslims worldwide focusing on their caliph for help. Starting in the mid-1960s, the colonies were slowly but surely released from European rule. Asian colonies were left and those in Africa a few years later, but not before a lot of bloodshed and violence had already been perpetrated by all parties involved. This led to a host of new countries in Africa and Asia which were all weakened and poverty stricken due to years of war and so they were easily taken over by dictators. Britain’s colonies were already de facto independent ever since the early 1950s. The British government-in-exile had used the military units overseas, which had mostly remained loyal, to keep these colonies at bay. They hadn’t been successful and their de jure independence was finally recognised in the late 50s and early 60s. A blow to the Queen and her government’s efforts had been India’s independence because it was not only the Crown Jewel of the Empire, but also because a lot of the Royal Navy had been stationed there since the British Revolution. The Indians interned these ships to form the Navy of the Republic of India. This was grudgingly accepted because it made India a major regional power in one blow and a buffer to the Ottomans who held sway over the Muslim populace of Southeast Asia. India had since seen heavy US investment much like China which led to rapid economic development. India’s supplies of natural gas, petroleum, coal, titanium, iron ore and other resources were developed and the cash influx from America was used for rapid expansion of the infrastructure. India had enmity with China, but shelved this due to their larger enmity toward the Ottoman Empire, thus creating a modus vivendi between the two Asian giants. India and China managed to reach first world standards by the early 1970s and achieve nuclear weapons by the 1960s after Japan had done so first. The de facto independent colonies of Britain’s government-in-exile in Canada had received support in turn from India and China. This made sure that these new countries did better than those that had chafed under German or Italian rule, or Mozambique which still suffered from Portuguese oppression that wouldn’t end until the 1970s.
In the meantime a new prestige project had arisen for the great powers to play with: the space race. Rockets had been considered toys from scientists, but during and after the war they had gained increasing interest for their use as weapons. Now, “space exploration was the new imperialism” as one communist once put it. Germany managed to put a satellite into space in 1958 and brought a man into orbit in 1960. The Ottomans ventured into space themselves and actually beat the other powers to the moon in 1966, planting the Porte’s flag there as well as a declaration written by Mehmed VII himself declaring it “a triumph not only for Islam, but for humankind” as well. They did extensive research into Mars and the Jovian and Saturnian moons. Especially Europa, Jupiter’s ice covered moon, was highly interesting because its hypothetical oceans could possibly sustain extraterrestrial life and of course possess oil. Germany, in the meantime, sent probes to Venus only to discover it was a hot, barren and desolate wasteland where life was impossible. Germany, Austria and the Ottomans jointly built a space station and set up a lunar base with a permanent crew of ten in 1970. It was powered by solar panels and a nuclear reactor. It had a hydroponics bay and laboratory with the best equipment available at the time. These moves were of course parried by the Americans with their Russian, Chinese and Indian allies following suit. All these countries would establish lunar bases in the 1970s and 1980s and make space the battleground of the future.
Fortunately, in the mid 1970s, a period of thaw took place with the issue of decolonization largely settled, thus ending the frosty period from 1945 to the early 1970s. the colonial empires had fallen apart although Germany still controlled Europe and the Ottomans the Middle East. This mattered less as the United States and its allies had rigorously spent money on developing coal, nuclear energy, wind and solar power as alternatives and because India and China had risen as major trading partners. The relevance of Europe declined and the Ottomans suffered a slight dent, but gasoline was still fuel of choice number one in the world and so the Ottoman chokehold weakened only slightly. Moreover, the Ottoman economy had diversified into sectors other than petroleum such as mining, banking, services, solar energy, highly advanced farming techniques and advanced electronics. Also, it had the mineral riches of Turkestan at its disposal which would make both countries rich. The only country which maintained heavy militarization was Britain which hardly changed after Seward’s death in 1976. It turned more isolationist, totalitarian, poor, militaristic and paranoid, thus making it the world’s pariah state.
According to the 2009 census, the Ottoman Empire had some 420 million inhabitants then giving it third place behind China and India only and above the US. The Ottoman Empire’s GDP per capita is the world’s highest and it has a high living standard with free education and healthcare. The Empire maintains an army of some 2.5 million men in peacetime and utterly dominates the Muslim world. Even non-aligned countries such as Algeria, Morocco, Malaysia and Indonesia follow the lead of the caliph in Constantinople in many matters and together the Muslim world is a force to be reckoned with. When Mehmed VII died he left the Ottoman Empire the dominant power in the world, a super power. His reign had spanned from 1926, when he was crowned Sultan at the age of 14, to 1997 when he died at the age of 85. His over seven decade long reign had been the most fruitful of those of all Sultans since Suleiman I the Magnificent in the sixteenth century. Mehmed left a dominion with many vassal states which spanned from the Danube to the Indus and from the Volga to the Indian Ocean. The economy was flourishing, the populace satisfied, highly educated and healthy, and militarily only few powers dared to challenge the Sultan’s will. Nuclear power and space travel were also no issue for the Sublime Porte which could now call itself truly Sublime. The Ottoman Empire had been reborn and had ascended to super power status after a long way up since 1878 which had proven a turning point. The late 17th, 18th and 19th centuries up to 1878 were now known as the Dark Centuries of the Empire. They were over and no one dared to call the Ottoman Empire the ‘sick man of Europe’ anymore.
Mehmed VII’s successor was crowned Osman IV, after the founder of the dynasty, and he would continue to command world affairs from the city founded by Constantine the Great, in reference to the might of the ancient Roman Empire which had done the same eons ago and the Ottomans alluded to this heritage. They had inherited the world from Rome after its fall, not the west, and it seems more true than ever now. The Empire dwarfs the Alexandrian and Roman empires and truly is the most powerful country in existence.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
It was a nice TL, Onkel Willie. A little wankish, but it's not like the board is exactly full of Ottowank. Well done.
Don Grey, my TL starts in 1876, and as a result of the POD (no assassination of Hüseyin Avni Paşa) the Ottomans do better in the war - the rest goes from there. I have done my best to make sure it's as realistic as possible - no wank, and firmly based in financial, geopolitical, and human realities.
I have the history sketched out, and have begun writing it. I'm doing it as a full work of fiction, not just a TL.