The ramifications of Julius Caesar surviving on Cleopatra and Caesarion

Had Caesar been warned of the plot, resulting of course in his survival, what would have happened with Cleopatra and Caesarion?

Also i assume him finding out about the plot would obviously temporarily delay his attack on Dacia and Parthia

Also now i have strayed from the purpose of the thread but what would have been the wider ramifications of his survival, not just on Cleopatra and Caesarion (although that is the main focus)
 
Cleopatra was never going to be anything other than a client ruler of Egypt. The people of Rome would not accept her as Caesar's wife. As a result it is unlikely that Caesarion would have any chance of becoming Caesar's heir. So they stay in Egypt and live longer, but uneventful lives most likely.
 
Depends on if Caesarian really wants to have to compete to be first man in Rome or sit on his throne as king of Egypt. If he wants to be first man in Rome he will have to win military gory, live in Rome part of his life, and be a strong politician/speaker.
 
I do not know much of the time period aside from the fundamental. But this means that Ptolemaic Egypt continues on as Caesarion will continue the dynasty, and it doesn't become a client state since there's no war with Antony since there is no reason for it of course

What happens with Octavian, barring his death he is still heir then
 
and of course even if all involved with the plot are executed if mark antony warns caesar that does not mean caesar will be unopposed

their deaths could turn them into martyrs
 
Depends on if Caesarian really wants to have to compete to be first man in Rome or sit on his throne as king of Egypt. If he wants to be first man in Rome he will have to win military gory, live in Rome part of his life, and be a strong politician/speaker.
I dont think at this point Caesarion would be first consul of rome, since Caesar would have decided on Augustus. Remember heritage and lineage is very important. Caesar just got out of a massive civil war that he won against the optimates being the representative of the populares, but because of that he has to shore up his legitimacy and therefore if the choice was Octavian or Caesarion I would expect Octavian would be preffered since he comes from a noble roman family and is a relative of Caesar. In such a situation I think all would depend on what Caesar does with Caesareon. What I can see is as poster above said a continuation of Ptolmeac dynasty in Egypt. However what I think would change is probably the parthian campaign. Caesar may rely on Cleopatra to fight the Parthians in which case what we get is perhaps a roman controlled Mesopatamia. In such a case I think we may expect something like what happened to Pergamon. perhaps Caesarion becomes King of Egypt but fosters good relation with Rome and once he passes away wills away the kingdom to Rome and his son/successor may given by that point the non italic bias may not be strong since gauls were accepted as a roman citizen and perhaps using his heritage tries to climb up the cursus honorum in the roman senate we could have one of his descendents becoming consul or imperator or what not or perhaps even Caesarion himself gets adopted into the Julio-Claudian dynasty or his successors. The big question is relationship between Caesareon and Octavian.
 
Last edited:
I do not know much of the time period aside from the fundamental. But this means that Ptolemaic Egypt continues on as Caesarion will continue the dynasty, and it doesn't become a client state since there's no war with Antony since there is no reason for it of course

What happens with Octavian, barring his death he is still heir then
It might not become a Roman province, but a Roman client state it already had been for all means and purposes since the early 1st century BCE under the later reign of Ptolemaios IX Soter II.
 
Well, we don't know whether Caesar would indeed recognise Caesarion as his own son or treat him as such (also, I think that the whole "Caesarion is the son of Caesar" trope really comes from Antony's declaration in Alexandria during the Donations ceremony in 33 BC. and that apart from that, there isn't any substantial evidence to support this claim - although the date of birth seems to fit and I may be wrong of course).

For one thing, Caesar will not be as dependent on Egypt as Antony was: he has already prepared the army and the funds for the campaign (stored in Apollonia); he can dedicate all his energies in the Parthian campaign and he has the resources of the whole Roman world at his disposal. Therefore, he wouldn't have to make so many concessions to Cleopatra. The question that still arises though is how much of the OTL Donations of Alexandria was the result of Cleopatra's influence on Antony and Antony's dependence on Egypt and how much was the result of Antony's own political designs and calculations.

If we assume that the Donations were really a "lover's gift" from Antony to Cleopatra and/or a "gift" aimed at ensuring Egypt's continued support, then we can safely assume that Caesar wouldn't be so generous. He didn't seem to be as defferential as Antony; in fact, it could be argued that he placed quite some checks on her power as queen - he allowed Arsinoe to remain in Ephesus, which I think was a measure aimed at keeping Egypt on a short leash by using her as a threat (at least unofficially) and the fact that Ptolemy XIV wasn't killed until after Caesar's assassination seems to me -at least- as an indication of Caesar not being really supportive of Cleopatra taking this step and becoming the sole ruler of Egypt. He also was in a much more independent position than Antony, as mentioned above. As such, I think that he would allow Cleopatra to rule alongside her brother; perhaps he would insist on making Caesarion the heir to the throne and even give him Cyprus to rule until his time to become king in Alexandria came.

But there is the possibility of Caesar having a greater role for Egypt in mind, but most probably in a different way than Antony: Caesar would clearly be on the offensive throughout the campaign while Antony was forced to remain on the defensive for almost four years; until Caesar, the only defeat Rome had sustained at the hands of the Parthians was at Carrhae and this was outside Roman territory - when Roman defenses were tested, they proved to be effective (Cassius repelled the Parthian invasion of Syria shortly after Carrhae, Cicero managed to do the same in Cilicia in 51 BC.), while Antony witnessed a near meltdown of Roman defenses in Asia (true, the area was very lightly defended, but still), with the Parthians capturing most of Syria and southern Asia Minor; and last, but not least, as it has been already mentioned, the personal relationship of each man with Cleopatra was different.

What all this means is that Caesar might envision a future where Egypt is one of the centrepieces of Rome's eastern policy (perhaps even THE centrepiece), but not the extent that Antony did. Antony must have draw the conclusion that the system that Pompey had set up in 63-62 BC. was ineffective and he might have gravitated towards a revamped system, where the myriad of clients kingdoms, principalities and cities would be replaced by a number of strong client states, particularly near the border with Parthia. Egypt met the requirements, as it was the wealthiest and most powerful of the client kingdoms, while it also had a veneer of legitimacy to rule over various regions in the East as Cleopatra was a descendant of the Seleucid dynasty as well; combined with Antony's personal history, it was the ideal option.

Caesar on the other hand wouldn't probably go down that direction (given the relative lack of information about his intentions regading Parthia, I will be mostly conjecturing - sorry for that); and what he would do wold depend on the outcome of the campaign:

  • So, let's assume that the campaign commences in the spring of 41 BC. after having dealt with Dacia, Caesar invades Parthia; let's also move the dynastic troues of Orodes IV et co. to around that period, in order to maximise Caesar's chances of winning. It would take at least two years for the campaign to be over; in the end, Media, Mesopotamia, Babylonia and Susiana are captured by the Romans, with the Parthians being forced to retreat east of the Caspian Gates. I think that Caesar would certainly make annexations (Mesopotamia and Babylonia, alongside Susiana to protect the Romans in the south). Characene would become a client kingdom; Persis and Elymais would also probably go down the same route, as would Media Atropatene, which might be rewarded with Media proper. Therefore, by 40-39 BC., we have a weakened Parthian realm and the Roman sphere of influence encompassing much of Iran.

    In such a senario, Caesar would probably invest much energy towards building up the new frontline states; Persis and Media would be two states which, combined and with some Roman backing, could become an effective buffer against a Parthian realm reduced to Parthia and the nearby provinces. As the Parthian threat has been pushed way too east, I don't think that Caesar would feel the need to empower any state west of the Euphrates. Egypt would most likely remain independent and retain Cyprus - but that's it. I don't think Caesar would go on transferring control of Roman provinces, such as Cyrenaica, to Egypt, neither would he force neigbouring client kings and dynasts to submit to Egyptian demands, as this could potentially destablise the East. He wouldn't have to, as Roman rule who seem to be fairly secure and the existing system to be functional
  • On the other hand, given that Caesar would be almost 60 years old by that time, it is possible that his performance wouldn't be stellar: the Romans may manage to secure most of the lands west of the Zagros mountains, but the Parthians could still remain a potent force, ready to strike back. The result of this campaign would be more like a (very) favourable truce for thr Romans rather than a decisive victory. Therefore, Caesar would most probably try to create the conditions for Rome's eventual victory (he might even plan of leading a second offensive to break the Parthians). As such, he would want to bind the client kingdoms more closely to Rome and organise them better, in order to be able to muster an even larger force in the future war, a prerequisite to achieve a decisive victory, as well as secure the needed resources. Furthermore, he would have to ensure that the new order of things in the east was at least theoretically legitimate, in order to strengthen its foundations: the client system established by Pompey hadn't been stellar, as between 63 and 31 BC. , it became clear that it was often unstable (as was seen in Armenia, Cappadocia and Judea); an arrangement more well received by the locals might help in this. Finally, he would find it helpful if he were to be able to undermine the rule of the Parthian king and also somehow shoot down the Arsakid claims of imperial rights over the Near East and deprive the latter of support. Under these circumstances, I think that he might conceive something mirroring Antony's plans, with Egypt becoming Rome's junior partner in the east: Egypt could become the stabilising factor, thanks to its wealth and overall power; Cleopatra (and Caesarion) were descendants of the Seleucid dynasty as well and could therefore be considered to be legitimate rulers of the East, which would also help against the ideological foundations of Parthia's expansionism at the time. Last, but not least, Caesar might have not wanted to stretch Rome's administrative and military resources too thin; at the same time, the possibility of a governor ruling over a wealthy province fairly away from Rome (and therefore, more difficult to be controlled), who would also happen to be at the head of a substantial army, given the defense needs of the new provinces east of the Euphrates wouldn't be something Caesar would take lightly, especially since he had almost been in the same position when he crossed the Rubicon and he would probably grow more suspicious with age, as the prestige of his victories would start waning -or so he would think, and therefore would consider his position weaker.

    All of these reasons could push Caesar towards a policy of less direct rule in Asia. He could create a client kingdom out of Mesopotamia, Babylonia and Susiana which could be given to Ptolemy XIV, if Cleopatra managed to convince Caesar to leave her as sole ruler of Egypt. I don't think that he would give it to Caesarion (Cleopatra would most likely oppose this, as she would want Caesarion to inherit the Ptolemaic throne and Caesar might wish to avoid some gossip back to Rome about the favour he shows to his alleged son). This is of course the more sensible route; Caesar could as well go full "grand plan" mode and put Rome' presence in the East on entirely new foundations, by creating a kingdom out of Mesopotamia, Babylonia, Susiana, Syria and perhaps Cilicia, that would become a sort of successor to the Seleucid monarchy, which Cleopatra might manage to convince him to entrust to Caesarion. Although with hindsight this might seem to be a good move (it creates another strong ally for Rome in the region, strong enough to be able to stand up against the Parthians -at least theoretically, Rome remains the de facto master of the East, the Romans simply revert to a policy more akin to what they did before 133 BC., Rome's administrative machine isn't too taxed and its military resources aren't spread), many in Rome would perceive this as treason, if not proof of Caesar's mind going soft, both of which could lead to a conspiracy to remove Caesar from his position of power.
Now, about Octavian, it really depends on what will happen while he is in the East with his uncle, the way Caesar dies and the aftermath of his death.

I think Octavian would gradually become a sort of unofficial political advisor to Caesar (primarily because politics was largely his element). In that capacity, as well as that of the designated (? - I don't know whether Caesar would inform him of the contens of his will) successor, I could see him coming to conflict with Cleopatra, as he would try to preserve his uncle's political position (and by extension his) back in Rome and therefore, he would oppose any move that might be miscontrued as "scandalous favouritism" towards the Egyptian queen and also, to protect his own position against potential claims of Cleopatra that Caesarion was Caesar's son.

If Caesar dies from natural causes (not impossible given his age, since he would be campaigning for nearly 3-4 years and not in the most hospitable places), then I think that Octavian would be in a stronger position, with him being more widely known; perhaps Caesar might have presented him as his heir before or shotly after the campaign. Still though, I think that at least in the beginning, he would have to share power with some other leading Caesarians, until he manages to become the undisputed leader of the faction. In this case, I think that he might feel confident enough, especially if succeds in positioning hiself as leader of Rome, to allow Caesarion to rule in Egypt after her mother's death, if nothing troublesome hadn't happened in the meantime. If, on the other hand, Caesar still ends up assassinated after the campaign and there is a new round of civil wars, he would most likely need the military support of already established military leaders of the Caesarian faction, which could lead to something like the OTL Triumvirate. In that case, I think it's very possible for Octavian to try to use the slightest excuse available to push for an intervention in Egypt - although he might not get his way on this one, since Cleopatra would most likely play it safe; however, this would be only temporary, as Octavian would want to eliminate any potential threat to his position.

(just my views)
 
Last edited:
Julius Caesar learns of the plot lets it go ahead until the last minute when Marc Anthony along with loyal soldiers spring the trap arresting the Senators involved. This is followed by a big show trial ending in them being stripped of their estates & money, money will going toward Caesars new campaign in the east. Octavius is left in charge to run Roman but to shore up support & secure the alliance with Egypt he adopts young Caesarion having he brought to Roman to be educated.
 
WI Julius and Cleopatra have more children? She was certainly fertile. The Romans won't like a half-Greek/Egyptian leader, but how many of his own children will Julius pass over for Augustus?
 
WI Julius and Cleopatra have more children? She was certainly fertile. The Romans won't like a half-Greek/Egyptian leader, but how many of his own children will Julius pass over for Augustus?
About the last one : as many as necessary.

Also, Caesarion was born before the campaign in Hispania of 45 BC; it was at that time that Caesar got the idea of naming Octavian as his heir. If he were to stick to this decision (which wasn't only based on personal grounds and therefore is more difficult to change), I think that he would be aware enough not to create further trouble for his designated successor by fathering other children with Cleopatra (or Octavian might manage to convince him to do so). And I am not sure whether Cleopatra would have the opportunity: if Caesar avoids assassination (which wouldn't need to have him learn about the plot, just have a replay of the last supposed conspiracy, which fizzled out when the conspirators thought they had been uncovered) he would certainly remain in Rome for some time and would be busy. He then goes to the East, where he would campaign against Parthia and Dacia for at least 3-4 years. Cleopatra would have most likely returned to Egypt by then and wouldn't have accompanied Caesar on his campaign. When he returns, he is at least 60 years old. He may die shortly after that, due to the strain; and even if he doesn't, I think he would be rather tired and Octavian, who would be constantly by his side, would do everything to protect his uncle's position in Rome and his own future as his heir. Furthermore, Cleopatra and Caesar would have been separated for nearly 4 years and Caesar may change quite considerably during that time, which in turn would influence the relationship between the two. And lastly, Caesar was not Mark Antony: sure, he liked Cleopatra, but I don't think he had actual feelings for her, like Antony most probably did (that's at least my view of the issue); and I think that this was what led to the greater number of offsprings between Antony and Cleopatra (and which in turn allowed the Queen to draw Antony closer to her, among other things).
 
Octavius was already being groomed for office by the time of Caesar's assassination. He had already put the kid in his will, and had taken special interest in his education at Apollonia. It would be highly likely that (by the time he went on campaign to the east) he would take Octavius and his associate Agrippa with him there, not only to make sure his heir has the required military experience for office but also to just test him out in general. Him and Agrippa being constantly by Caesar's side would certainly sway the Dictator to keep Octavius as his heir, and negate any attempts that Cleopatra would likely attempt to ensure Caesarion's succession. Now it's likely that Caesarion would get a portion of Caesar's wealth after he died, something similar to the rest of Octavius' cousins when Caesar passed, but he would miss out on the name and the vast majority of the fortune.

Octavius would also most certainly be high up on the Cursus Honorum by the time of Caesar's death, at least somewhere near Praetor if not Consul as an ailing Caesar would likely attempt to speed up his nephew's political career as fast as possible. By the time of his death, Octavius and his allies would not only be cemented in power, but it's very likely that Caesarion would have been pushed into the cold by the vast majority of the Roman populace and Senate, not willing to support not only a foreigner, but a bastard and a King as their new leader. Even if by some divine intercession Caesar willed everything of his to Caesarion, I truly doubt that he would be able to command the same level of influence in Rome as Octavius did. He would be the epitome of a foreign tyrant, and serve as a truly unifying force for most of Rome to fight against.
 
Julius Caesar learns of the plot lets it go ahead until the last minute when Marc Anthony along with loyal soldiers spring the trap arresting the Senators involved. This is followed by a big show trial ending in them being stripped of their estates & money, money will going toward Caesars new campaign in the east. Octavius is left in charge to run Roman but to shore up support & secure the alliance with Egypt he adopts young Caesarion having he brought to Roman to be educated.
Julius Ceasar is more likely to have pardoned them and allowed them to retire to their estates. After all, he forgave people who fought against him on the side of Pomey.

We do not know what Ceasar wanted to do more than he planned a move against Parthia. The "Ceasar want to be king/emperor" theory is based on his enemies. Ceasar might have been content with defeating the Parthians and then retire from military life.
 
Julius Ceasar is more likely to have pardoned them and allowed them to retire to their estates. After all, he forgave people who fought against him on the side of Pomey.

Fighting on the other side of a civil war is a bit different than trying to have you killed.
 
It is important to take into account that Caesar was a realist.
Legal legitimacy was very important to Romans. Rome was and remained a republic even under what we call the empire.
If we want to have a clue of what Caesar would have done with Caesarion, I think we should consider what Antonius did with his own children with Cleopatra. Antonius did not try to make these children Roman citizens.

It would take a couple generations to have these children becoming citizens as client kings and possibly their own children or grandchildren marry with roman aristocrats.
 
Cleopatra would've tried to make Caesarion his heir but unless she wanted to cross paths with Octavian and risk her and her son dying, she'll probably stay away from any harebrained ideas to make him involved in Roman politics. Julius Caesar would certainly plan for Caesarion to rule Egypt alongside his mother until he is old enough to rule on his own. Although he wouldn't be a legitimate heir, I do see Caesar granting him Roman citizenship and most certainly giving him the privilege of a Roman education. If he plays his cards right, he would serve as a stalwart ally of Octavian. His children and grandchildren would probably marry into Octavian's family or the Roman senatorial elite.
 
Caesar is not going to name anyone his heir and try to hand them a throne. From my reading of his moves he would have wanted Octavian and Caesarian and others to compete for the position as first man in Rome as he once did.

One can be against Caesarism, but also realize Caesar didn't purge his political foes or take any of the steps one needs to in order to set up a dynasty. All of his moves pointed to him supporting a Roman Republic 2.0 that would have been a competitive authoritarian state with Republican components.

As for the idea Caesar had a secret plan to make himself King after conquering Parthia. That was the justification of the Senatorial assassins' who in the end did a great deal to end Republicanism in Rome themselves, but there was never proof to back up the claims.
 
Top