The Raid on Scapa Flow or WI Germany had Aircraft Carriers in WWII

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Flubber

Banned
I think implicit in the point Flubber was raising is that escort carriers were too slow to escort fast battleships and such.


Hence the question about speed. :rolleyes:

HMS Audacity's top speed was 15 knots, the late war RN Nairana-class topped out at 17, and the USN Casablanca-class could make all of 20.

So, I'll ask my questions again. Just what would a German escort carrier escort? Allied escort carriers escorted CONVOYS, not capital ships. Allied escort carriers performed ANTI-SUBMARINE PATROLS, not anti-shipping strikes. Allied escort carriers SUPPORTED AMPHIBIOUS LANDINGS, not defending against the same.

What would a German escort carrier do? And at what speed would it do it?
 
Friends will be Friends
German Japanese Naval Discussions (1931 to 1939)
After the declaration of the new Weißbuch of the Kriegsmarine the road was clear. If someone would be able to help during the time only the Japanese will do so. Some of the German Navy Officers heard about the unwilling Japanese delegation during the Washington Treaty discussions and so they were seen as a main target for support. Happily this nation was doing carrier trails since the middle of the 1920’s and for sure they got a lot of knowledge. Why not to get this some Germans thought.

Shortly after the “New Tirpitz Plan” was founded a delegation was send towards Tokyo. At first the Japanese side was not very happy to support the foes, but one of the Germans speak Japanese fluently so he got in contact with others very well.

After the ice was broken (Comment: Is this wording in English the same as in German?) both parties started to talk. Normally it would be a problem, but after a short time the members of both nations talk English with each other. It is a funny thing that two nations, fighting against another ‘culture’ (aka the Anglo side) were speaking together the language of the foe, some historican’s take notice.

But since both officers staff had a lot to do with the British, since the Japanese bought their main ships form UK until 1910 and the capability of speaking the foes language during war is obvious, the main ‘problem’ was solved.

During the next years many visits of German naval officers were done to the Imperial Japanese Navy and vice versa. It looks like a second treaty of Rapallo had been made and so it was in reality.

First of all the Germans wants to know about the ‘Art of Carrier usage’. That was quick clear to all and it was solved soon. At one time a German navy officer, Fregattenkapitän (Commander) Lütjens (Comment: I’m not in the mood looking for carrier warfare specialized German naval officers) spoke to his counterpart in Tokyo.

“Nagumo, just tell me the secret about carrier warfare! Germany would like to know how these ships ware working and what kind of problems the Imperial Japanese Navy got while operating these ships. We got a document about a US Navy manoeuvre called “Fleet Problem” and there these two carries, Lexington and Saratoga, were working well. Do you know that?”

“No, but it sounds interesting.” Nagumo replies. “So Germany is interesting in building carriers? Why not battleships like in the past?” he asks further.

Now Commander Lütjens explained the main idea about the “New Tirpitz Plan”. Using carriers as a main weapon, since it is not possible to match the Royal Navy with battleships. Nagumo was quiet surprised about the things he get from the German, but months later he would understand.

“So you need some knowledge about the ‘art of carrier warfare’!” he starts after the explanation.

“Yes, tell me please. We need some information about it to be able to design our own ships in future!”

“Let’s say it as an idea for future. The main things the Imperial Navy has solved. After several years of trials and test we were now able to get the main drivers of a carriers for design and construction. For example you need a flat top without something between landing and take off deck. You need some....”

Nagumo explained the details of carrier design, which he wants to have. This was only the starting point and many times thereafter all German Officers of the trip got a better understanding where problems would be if you design and build a carrier.

“So Germany would need at least ten years to get this knowledge?” Commander Lütjens asks finally his new friend Nagumo.

“Off course, not! Generally speaking I told you the knowledge of the Imperial Navy of the last ten years and you will not do the same again. If we would change our positions I would say that Germany is able to build a carrier like the Ruiyo from stand off. Japan did many things wrong and these wouldn’t be done by the next design of an aircraft carrier. Put these information on paper and you safe ten years of experience!”

“And what do you want in between?” The next question of Commander Lütjens was obvious.

“You fought against England and the US for nearly four years. Since then many developments on weapon design were made. We got many problems against the dammed Imperial Army. May be you can help us? Giving us better weapons like your machine gun? We do want to piss off these Army Generals and with better weapons this will be done for sure!”

“For sure, Nagumo. None of our officers understood this fight Army versus Navy in Japan. Yes, German naval officers are different than these Army ones, but this kind of fighting? We simply do not have the power and the capabilities to fight against each other. We are one nation and both parties still fight against this ‘Versailles Treaty’!”

“But you don’t want your colonies back?” Nagumo asks and waits for a reaction.

“If you got colonies, you have to have a Navy. And these small island somewhere in the middle of nowhere, who cares? Africa is different, but these pacific island were too far away. And in wartime we cannot fight, if the Royal Navy has a size like today. It is simply not worth it. It costs too much capabilities of our Navy!”

“That’s good for Japan!” Nagumo said.

“Take it and do what you want. I don’t think Germany is interested in that, if we get something else for that!” Commander Lütjens spoke with his sharp voice. Now during this talks he realize the main driver of the Japanese side. They still want these islands in the Pacific. ‘But it costs Germany the Graf Spee and other ships in 1914! For what?

“Carrier warfare knowledge?” Nagumo said quietly.

“Yes, carrier warfare knowledge. And how to design these ships!”

“That wouldn’t make a problem!”

Thereafter a special, secret Japanese- German Treaty, the ‘Kyoto Agreement’ was signed.


Thereafter Germany get the knowledge she wanted and the Imperial Navy got theirs. And Japans knows that the old colonies were not wanted back to Germany too, which helped a lot during further talks.
And not only on paper. The first twenty aircraft of the Kriegsmarine were from Japan!

TBC
Ovaron97
 
You know, I can't help but notice, Tirpitz is most famous for triggering the Anglo-German Naval arms race, and I think that his assumption was that the Germans would eventually be able to close the battleship gap between Germany and Britain through out-production, not hope that the British are idiot monkeys who won't feel threatened at all by a Kaiserliche Marine going through some explosive expansionism. Or as it may be in this case, apparently make no effort to invest in anti-carrier ops at all.

Seriously, do you really think that the British response to Germany cranking out seven carriers will be, "doh-hoh-hoh, more battleships"?
 
Yes, I do think that the Brits do not react fully correct on buidling of German aircraft carriers.:p

I said it before and I will say it again. The Royal Navy does not have any clue about real carrier warfare. Ask the friendly neighbours across the ocean what they think about the RN and their carrier usage.

Even today the RN is building two of their largest ships in history but they do not have ANY AIRCRAFT to operate them!

This is the same arrogant behaviour on CV's that the RN got before the WWII against these pocketbattleships and the U-boats of the KM. And once the KM got a real BB their simply run away from it.

In the thirties nobody had really a clue how to operate, even the US Navy not and they performed many (how many I don't know, but more than three Fleet Problems) manouevres and they still not realize how to deal with it.

In this threat somebody from the other side got a better idea. I think that is Alternate History!

It doesn't matter what some folks are writing in this threat. My idea looks feasible, even if my timeline is beginning in the thirties! In this decade a lot of engineering inventions for warfare on air, land and sea was developed and researched!

My problem was the construction time of 3+3 carriers before a new war
was beginning and therefore I put it one year later. Thats not even a problem as I found out and I'm really confident in German engineering capability for carrier construction. The Bismark and Tirpitz showed us that capability in naval design very well.

In the last years of OTL WWII the Germans invented many new weapons and I'm very confident that this 'engineering engergy' is useable in the 1930's, too. (even since I'm an engineer myself!). And do not say Germany would need twenty years of carrier warfare experiance before to do so.

Thats bullshit. In the beginning of the thirties many of the problems of carrier handling etc. were solved and the pilots were happy to land on a runway, even it is moving. There were simple no real airfields like today available and a flat top was better. So if you design a carrier based on someones experiance, say Japan, you are ten years faster with that than the RN, the USN or the Imperial Japanese Navy.

Example? The Wehrmacht got barely eight years to develop a Panzerdoktrin and than they showed the world how to do it!
The best of all was the Luftwaffe. They did not have any tradition or older planes and they showed the world their power after barely five years.

The same would be thinkable on German carriers. That's my POD!

BTW I put the OTL construction timeline of RN & KM capital ships on a page before (p. 22 or 23) and I do not see ANY reaction of the RN against the KM two BC & two BB planning, development and construction directly.

And to be honest. If you got 20+ capital ships, with twenty years of experiance, why do you really want to react on one special case against one enemy, comming from nowhere? With 25+ against say 3 or 4 you do really want to react?

That's rubbish. The RN would react on Japanese BB, but not on German 'tin cans' CV on force! May be one or two carrier earlies, as I said before, but no BB less. They loved their battlewagons too much, as they would cancel one of them.

Even the USN was building useless BB & BC (Alaska) AFTER Pearl Habour. And they felt the capability of aircraft against ships very intensive!

TBC
Ovaron97

P.S.
And everybody which think that a new war Germany against England and the "Erzfeind" (aka France) was impossible in the 1930's they do not have knowledge about German history.

The fight against the Treaty of Versailles was the main driver for everybody since the German people thought in Nov 1918 peace would be made based on Wilsons 17 points plan. Once this was not given the reaction is clear. A new fight would come. It was only a matter of time.

P.S.S:
Marshall Foch said: "This is not peace, it is armistice for twenty years!" after June 1919.
Unfortunally he missed by three months. :(:(:(
 
Yes, I do think that the Brits do not react fully correct on buidling of German aircraft carriers.:p

I said it before and I will say it again. The Royal Navy does not have any clue about real carrier warfare. Ask the friendly neighbours across the ocean what they think about the RN and their carrier usage.

Even today the RN is building two of their largest ships in history but they do not have ANY AIRCRAFT to operate them!

This is the same arrogant behaviour on CV's that the RN got before the WWII against these pocketbattleships and the U-boats of the KM. And once the KM got a real BB their simply run away from it.

In the thirties nobody had really a clue how to operate, even the US Navy not and they performed many (how many I don't know, but more than three Fleet Problems) manouevres and they still not realize how to deal with it.

In this threat somebody from the other side got a better idea. I think that is Alternate History!

It doesn't matter what some folks are writing in this threat. My idea looks feasible, even if my timeline is beginning in the thirties! In this decade a lot of engineering inventions for warfare on air, land and sea was developed and researched!

My problem was the construction time of 3+3 carriers before a new war
was beginning and therefore I put it one year later. Thats not even a problem as I found out and I'm really confident in German engineering capability for carrier construction. The Bismark and Tirpitz showed us that capability in naval design very well.

In the last years of OTL WWII the Germans invented many new weapons and I'm very confident that this 'engineering engergy' is useable in the 1930's, too. (even since I'm an engineer myself!). And do not say Germany would need twenty years of carrier warfare experiance before to do so.

Thats bullshit. In the beginning of the thirties many of the problems of carrier handling etc. were solved and the pilots were happy to land on a runway, even it is moving. There were simple no real airfields like today available and a flat top was better. So if you design a carrier based on someones experiance, say Japan, you are ten years faster with that than the RN, the USN or the Imperial Japanese Navy.

Example? The Wehrmacht got barely eight years to develop a Panzerdoktrin and than they showed the world how to do it!
The best of all was the Luftwaffe. They did not have any tradition or older planes and they showed the world their power after barely five years.

The same would be thinkable on German carriers. That's my POD!

BTW I put the OTL construction timeline of RN & KM capital ships on a page before (p. 22 or 23) and I do not see ANY reaction of the RN against the KM two BC & two BB planning, development and construction directly.

And to be honest. If you got 20+ capital ships, with twenty years of experiance, why do you really want to react on one special case against one enemy, comming from nowhere? With 25+ against say 3 or 4 you do really want to react?

That's rubbish. The RN would react on Japanese BB, but not on German 'tin cans' CV on force! May be one or two carrier earlies, as I said before, but no BB less. They loved their battlewagons too much, as they would cancel one of them.

Even the USN was building useless BB & BC (Alaska) AFTER Pearl Habour. And they felt the capability of aircraft against ships very intensive!

TBC
Ovaron97

P.S.
And everybody which think that a new war Germany against England and the "Erzfeind" (aka France) was impossible in the 1930's they do not have knowledge about German history.

The fight against the Treaty of Versailles was the main driver for everybody since the German people thought in Nov 1918 peace would be made based on Wilsons 17 points plan. Once this was not given the reaction is clear. A new fight would come. It was only a matter of time.

P.S.S:
Marshall Foch said: "This is not peace, it is armistice for twenty years!" after June 1919.
Unfortunally he missed by three months. :(:(:(

OK, you REALLY need to read what the RN and FAA were actually doing in the 30's,. not just some fantasied version of it.

The British not reacting to German carriers is a fantasy.

The FAA had a very good idea of carrier warfare, and what the US and IJN were doing. They had to modify what they did to their expected areas of fighting, and what they had available. They understood what the US and IJN were doing, they didnt duplicate it for a number of reasons.

Just what has out idiotic government in 2012 have to do with the RN in the 1930's? Straw man argument

Just WHAT arrogant attitude to wards Pocket Battleships and U-boats, exactly?> Just because you have this fantasy doesnt mean it exists...
Ah, so the magic German naval construction manages to build everything in 2/3 of the time despite the fact it was the BRITISH who were the fastest ship builders.

B&T were poor designs, only saved by the fact they were 20% over the treaty limits, ie cheating...

I could go on, but it seems pointless....
 
Yes, I do think that the Brits do not react fully correct on buidling of German aircraft carriers.:p

I said it before and I will say it again. The Royal Navy does not have any clue about real carrier warfare. Ask the friendly neighbours across the ocean what they think about the RN and their carrier usage.

Even today the RN is building two of their largest ships in history but they do not have ANY AIRCRAFT to operate them!

This is the same arrogant behaviour on CV's that the RN got before the WWII against these pocketbattleships and the U-boats of the KM. And once the KM got a real BB their simply run away from it.

In the thirties nobody had really a clue how to operate, even the US Navy not and they performed many (how many I don't know, but more than three Fleet Problems) manouevres and they still not realize how to deal with it.

In this threat somebody from the other side got a better idea. I think that is Alternate History!

It doesn't matter what some folks are writing in this threat. My idea looks feasible, even if my timeline is beginning in the thirties! In this decade a lot of engineering inventions for warfare on air, land and sea was developed and researched!

My problem was the construction time of 3+3 carriers before a new war
was beginning and therefore I put it one year later. Thats not even a problem as I found out and I'm really confident in German engineering capability for carrier construction. The Bismark and Tirpitz showed us that capability in naval design very well.

In the last years of OTL WWII the Germans invented many new weapons and I'm very confident that this 'engineering engergy' is useable in the 1930's, too. (even since I'm an engineer myself!). And do not say Germany would need twenty years of carrier warfare experiance before to do so.

Thats bullshit. In the beginning of the thirties many of the problems of carrier handling etc. were solved and the pilots were happy to land on a runway, even it is moving. There were simple no real airfields like today available and a flat top was better. So if you design a carrier based on someones experiance, say Japan, you are ten years faster with that than the RN, the USN or the Imperial Japanese Navy.

Example? The Wehrmacht got barely eight years to develop a Panzerdoktrin and than they showed the world how to do it!
The best of all was the Luftwaffe. They did not have any tradition or older planes and they showed the world their power after barely five years.

The same would be thinkable on German carriers. That's my POD!

BTW I put the OTL construction timeline of RN & KM capital ships on a page before (p. 22 or 23) and I do not see ANY reaction of the RN against the KM two BC & two BB planning, development and construction directly.

And to be honest. If you got 20+ capital ships, with twenty years of experiance, why do you really want to react on one special case against one enemy, comming from nowhere? With 25+ against say 3 or 4 you do really want to react?

That's rubbish. The RN would react on Japanese BB, but not on German 'tin cans' CV on force! May be one or two carrier earlies, as I said before, but no BB less. They loved their battlewagons too much, as they would cancel one of them.

Even the USN was building useless BB & BC (Alaska) AFTER Pearl Habour. And they felt the capability of aircraft against ships very intensive!

TBC
Ovaron97

P.S.
And everybody which think that a new war Germany against England and the "Erzfeind" (aka France) was impossible in the 1930's they do not have knowledge about German history.

The fight against the Treaty of Versailles was the main driver for everybody since the German people thought in Nov 1918 peace would be made based on Wilsons 17 points plan. Once this was not given the reaction is clear. A new fight would come. It was only a matter of time.

P.S.S:
Marshall Foch said: "This is not peace, it is armistice for twenty years!" after June 1919.
Unfortunally he missed by three months. :(:(:(


I'm with Astrodragon on this. No... just, no. Please do some research on this. Your points about the panzers and the Luftwaffe are especially fallacious. The Germans spent a large chunk of the 1920's co-operating in secret with the Soviets, and the Luftwaffe was built out of a tonne of behind the scene work by Lufthansa and the glider schools.
As for the comments about the KM and its battleship, I preseume you mean its major fleet units. Let's see now.... Bismark was hunted down and destroyed, Tirpitz never contributed much to anything before it was blown sky-high by the RAF, Scharnhorst was hunted down and destroyed and Gneisenau was effectively destroyed by Hitler.
At which point did the RN run away from these vessels?
I'm officially annoyed with this thread and hereby dub it the new Frisian Islands. :mad:
 
I'm with Astrodragon on this. No... just, no. Please do some research on this. Your points about the panzers and the Luftwaffe are especially fallacious. The Germans spent a large chunk of the 1920's co-operating in secret with the Soviets, and the Luftwaffe was built out of a tonne of behind the scene work by Lufthansa and the glider schools.
As for the comments about the KM and its battleship, I preseume you mean its major fleet units. Let's see now.... Bismark was hunted down and destroyed, Tirpitz never contributed much to anything before it was blown sky-high by the RAF, Scharnhorst was hunted down and destroyed and Gneisenau was effectively destroyed by Hitler.
At which point did the RN run away from these vessels?
I'm officially annoyed with this thread and hereby dub it the new Frisian Islands. :mad:

I agree completely with Cymraeg.

I mean how does putting hunter groups of cruisers, battlecruisers, carriers and french warships on station across the trade routes to hunt the pocket battleships speak of arrogrance.

The other point he's ignoring is the racism of the time. The british were wrong to ignore the Japanese, but if Germany starts getting into the business there won't be any racist blindness. They will respond! Remember the Slogan we want 8 and we won't wait. That you hand wave away the british with such disregard shows this is just your attempt at a WANK. Its just gotten boring now.
 
OK, you REALLY need to read what the RN and FAA were actually doing in the 30's,. not just some fantasied version of it.

The British not reacting to German carriers is a fantasy.

The FAA had a very good idea of carrier warfare, and what the US and IJN were doing. They had to modify what they did to their expected areas of fighting, and what they had available. They understood what the US and IJN were doing, they didnt duplicate it for a number of reasons.

Just what has out idiotic government in 2012 have to do with the RN in the 1930's? Straw man argument

Just WHAT arrogant attitude to wards Pocket Battleships and U-boats, exactly?> Just because you have this fantasy doesnt mean it exists...
Ah, so the magic German naval construction manages to build everything in 2/3 of the time despite the fact it was the BRITISH who were the fastest ship builders.

B&T were poor designs, only saved by the fact they were 20% over the treaty limits, ie cheating...

I could go on, but it seems pointless....


British ships were over the treaty limits too for whatever that is worth

I agree that the concept of the British ignoring considerable German carrier building is rather unlikely; ditto for France

As I said before, there are plausible scenarios where the Germans could have 2 or even 3 small to medium utility carriers (for arguments sake call them 3 ryjuos) that are in fleet service by 1940

however, those carriers would be an absolute drop in the bucket compared to the scale of aircraft going back and forth between the UK and the mainland during a hot war; and the intent of such a force to raid scapa would be obvious; therefore scapa would be heavily defended; plus the range of German navalized land designs makes such a move super dangerous and likely suicidal

and in all honesty given the scale of the RN (not even accounting for counter moves) let alone the USN; three (plus whatever fit out later) ryjuo's are not winning the war or even doing anything significant for Germany on the grand scale without other changes in the dynamics of the war
 
I agree completely with Cymraeg.

I mean how does putting hunter groups of cruisers, battlecruisers, carriers and french warships on station across the trade routes to hunt the pocket battleships speak of arrogrance.

The other point he's ignoring is the racism of the time. The british were wrong to ignore the Japanese, but if Germany starts getting into the business there won't be any racist blindness. They will respond! Remember the Slogan we want 8 and we won't wait. That you hand wave away the british with such disregard shows this is just your attempt at a WANK. Its just gotten boring now.

The British were taking the Japanese threat very seriously (there was racism, but it was in the guise of fear of the Japanese wanting to expand as a "young race", and from the Dominions of the "Yellow Peril"-NOT an underappreciation of the Japanese threat, the British had trained their navy, even allied with them because they were a formidable naval power in 1902), and were up to 1939 trying to build a navy powerful enough to take on both Japan and the European threat at the same time. The problem was twofold. The first was of funding/the industrial ability to manufacture the ships quickly enough. The second was that tackling the Japanese too early left Europe vulnerable to German aggression, and vice versa. The British hadn't rearmed sufficiently to fight on both fronts at the same time by 1939, but were doing so as quickly as possible. They even tried to resist the Japanese where possible in the Far East (which, as Singapore remained unfinished up to 1939, was not enough)-a lack of economic concessions, for example, and supplying the Nationalist Chinese.
 
Yes, I do think that the Brits do not react fully correct on buidling of German aircraft carriers.:p

I said it before and I will say it again. The Royal Navy does not have any clue about real carrier warfare. Ask the friendly neighbours across the ocean what they think about the RN and their carrier usage.

Even today the RN is building two of their largest ships in history but they do not have ANY AIRCRAFT to operate them!

This is the same arrogant behaviour on CV's that the RN got before the WWII against these pocketbattleships and the U-boats of the KM. And once the KM got a real BB their simply run away from it.

In the thirties nobody had really a clue how to operate, even the US Navy not and they performed many (how many I don't know, but more than three Fleet Problems) manouevres and they still not realize how to deal with it.

In this threat somebody from the other side got a better idea. I think that is Alternate History!

It doesn't matter what some folks are writing in this threat. My idea looks feasible, even if my timeline is beginning in the thirties! In this decade a lot of engineering inventions for warfare on air, land and sea was developed and researched!

My problem was the construction time of 3+3 carriers before a new war
was beginning and therefore I put it one year later. Thats not even a problem as I found out and I'm really confident in German engineering capability for carrier construction. The Bismark and Tirpitz showed us that capability in naval design very well.

In the last years of OTL WWII the Germans invented many new weapons and I'm very confident that this 'engineering engergy' is useable in the 1930's, too. (even since I'm an engineer myself!). And do not say Germany would need twenty years of carrier warfare experiance before to do so.

Thats bullshit. In the beginning of the thirties many of the problems of carrier handling etc. were solved and the pilots were happy to land on a runway, even it is moving. There were simple no real airfields like today available and a flat top was better. So if you design a carrier based on someones experiance, say Japan, you are ten years faster with that than the RN, the USN or the Imperial Japanese Navy.

Example? The Wehrmacht got barely eight years to develop a Panzerdoktrin and than they showed the world how to do it!
The best of all was the Luftwaffe. They did not have any tradition or older planes and they showed the world their power after barely five years.

The same would be thinkable on German carriers. That's my POD!

BTW I put the OTL construction timeline of RN & KM capital ships on a page before (p. 22 or 23) and I do not see ANY reaction of the RN against the KM two BC & two BB planning, development and construction directly.

And to be honest. If you got 20+ capital ships, with twenty years of experiance, why do you really want to react on one special case against one enemy, comming from nowhere? With 25+ against say 3 or 4 you do really want to react?

That's rubbish. The RN would react on Japanese BB, but not on German 'tin cans' CV on force! May be one or two carrier earlies, as I said before, but no BB less. They loved their battlewagons too much, as they would cancel one of them.

Even the USN was building useless BB & BC (Alaska) AFTER Pearl Habour. And they felt the capability of aircraft against ships very intensive!

TBC
Ovaron97

P.S.
And everybody which think that a new war Germany against England and the "Erzfeind" (aka France) was impossible in the 1930's they do not have knowledge about German history.

The fight against the Treaty of Versailles was the main driver for everybody since the German people thought in Nov 1918 peace would be made based on Wilsons 17 points plan. Once this was not given the reaction is clear. A new fight would come. It was only a matter of time.

P.S.S:
Marshall Foch said: "This is not peace, it is armistice for twenty years!" after June 1919.
Unfortunally he missed by three months. :(:(:(


there is a lot in there that doesn't work; let me just tackle the simple applicable stuff to your story

the british and french DID respond to German naval moves; the entire Dunkerque class was in response to the pocket battle ships; and the KGV's where also responsive to german warship construction

it is unreasonable think that versus this historical backdrop that the British and French would be complacent when the Germans shift to a carrier focus

now that same argument doesn't apply with airpower; 1939 and 1940 (and the interwar period before) showed that the British and French were too complacent with their air forces versus the obvious German build up and actions in Spain, so you saw intense weakness in AA guns and doctrine and fighters not having a heavy armament...given THAT backdrop one could argue that a better built LW could be more effective with years of improved development curve that wouldn't necessarily draw massive British and French counter moves; since the LW was already outpacing them in real life and they didn't take the proper measures to combat them
 
now that same argument doesn't apply with airpower; 1939 and 1940 (and the interwar period before) showed that the British and French were too complacent with their air forces versus the obvious German build up and actions in Spain, so you saw intense weakness in AA guns and doctrine and fighters not having a heavy armament...given THAT backdrop one could argue that a better built LW could be more effective with years of improved development curve that wouldn't necessarily draw massive British and French counter moves; since the LW was already outpacing them in real life and they didn't take the proper measures to combat them

I dont think thats true, BW, at least for the RAF. They were building Hurricanes and Spitfires as fast as they could (and faster than Germany was building fighters), and had identified cannon as their preferential armament (just didnt have it working sideways by the BoB)
They also had heavy AA guns in production, but it was delayed due to technical problems.
The main difference was experience and doctrine, since the RAF hadn't all been spending their summer holidays in Spain (unlike pilots from certain other countries...:p)

The French, true , had absolutely terrible doctrine, but that wasnt the RAF's fault...
 
Yes, I do think that the Brits do not react fully correct on buidling of German aircraft carriers.:p(1)

I said it before and I will say it again. The Royal Navy does not have any clue about real carrier warfare (2). Ask the friendly neighbours across the ocean what they think about the RN and their carrier usage.

Even today the RN is building two of their largest ships in history but they do not have ANY AIRCRAFT to operate them!

This is the same arrogant behaviour on CV's that the RN got before the WWII against these pocketbattleships and the U-boats of the KM. And once the KM got a real BB their simply run away from it (3).

In the thirties nobody had really a clue how to operate, even the US Navy not (3a)and they performed many (how many I don't know, but more than three Fleet Problems) manouevres and they still not realize how to deal with it.

In this threat somebody from the other side got a better idea. I think that is Alternate History!(4)

It doesn't matter what some folks are writing in this threat. My idea looks feasible, even if my timeline is beginning in the thirties! In this decade a lot of engineering inventions for warfare on air, land and sea was developed and researched!(5)

My problem was the construction time of 3+3 carriers before a new war
was beginning and therefore I put it one year later. Thats not even a problem as I found out and I'm really confident in German engineering capability for carrier construction. The Bismark and Tirpitz showed us that capability in naval design very well. (6)

In the last years of OTL WWII the Germans invented many new weapons and I'm very confident that this 'engineering engergy' is useable in the 1930's, too. (even since I'm an engineer myself!). And do not say Germany would need twenty years of carrier warfare experiance before to do so.

Thats bullshit. In the beginning of the thirties many of the problems of carrier handling etc. were solved (7) and the pilots were happy to land on a runway, even it is moving. There were simple no real airfields like today available and a flat top was better. So if you design a carrier based on someones experiance, say Japan, you are ten years faster with that than the RN, the USN or the Imperial Japanese Navy.

Example? The Wehrmacht got barely eight years to develop a Panzerdoktrin and than they showed the world how to do it! (8)
The best of all was the Luftwaffe. They did not have any tradition or older planes and they showed the world their power after barely five years (9).

The same would be thinkable on German carriers. That's my POD!

BTW I put the OTL construction timeline of RN & KM capital ships on a page before (p. 22 or 23) and I do not see ANY reaction of the RN against the KM two BC & two BB planning (10), development and construction directly.

And to be honest. If you got 20+ capital ships, with twenty years of experiance, why do you really want to react on one special case against one enemy, comming from nowhere? With 25+ against say 3 or 4 you do really want to react?

That's rubbish. The RN would react on Japanese BB, but not on German 'tin cans' CV on force! May be one or two carrier earlies, as I said before, but no BB less. They loved their battlewagons too much, as they would cancel one of them (11).

Even the USN was building useless BB & BC (Alaska) AFTER Pearl Habour. And they felt the capability of aircraft against ships very intensive!

TBC
Ovaron97

P.S.
And everybody which think that a new war Germany against England and the "Erzfeind" (aka France) was impossible in the 1930's they do not have knowledge about German history.

The fight against the Treaty of Versailles was the main driver for everybody since the German people thought in Nov 1918 peace would be made based on Wilsons 17 points plan. Once this was not given the reaction is clear. A new fight would come. It was only a matter of time.(12)

P.S.S:
Marshall Foch said: "This is not peace, it is armistice for twenty years!" after June 1919.
Unfortunally he missed by three months. :(:(:(

1. Anglo German Naval Treaty of 1935 OTL limited German ship building to 35% in EACH CLASS of ships not overall tonnage. The RN was fully aware that the germans may choose to specialise in one or more classes and wrote the treaty accordingly.
2. And the Germans do? The British invented many of the technologies required for modern carriers - first full length flight, deck first integrated deck, first armoured deck, first angled flight deck, first steam catapult.
3. Graf Spee ran away from heavy cruisers and scuttled itself. Bismarck was sunk by RN, as was the Scharnhorst. The RN would really have liked to sink the Gniesenau and Tirpitz too but they skulked around in heavily defended ports most of the war so they were bombed instead.
3a No one had a clue how to operate carriers in 1930....ok..........
4. One side having a better idea is alternate history. The other side having no ideas or response is fantasy
5. Yes there were technological advances made in the 1930's but not just for one country - every country made advances. But in your timeline the Germans seem to be the only ones benefitting.
6. If the Germans were so great at carrier design how come they designed the piece of junk known as the Graf Zepellin / Peter Strausser
7 .....but at the beginning of the 30's many of the problems are solved (see 3a)?????????????????
8. They beat the British and French in 1940 and 1941 and the Russians in 1941 and 1942. And then lost. Your point?
9. Germany was able to develop engines and passenger planes throughout the inter war period. The modern monoplanes were all built by every country in the same 6-7 years. Germans couldn't build a decent heavy bomber and did not outclass British fighters.
10. What were the Illustrious / KGV class / Lion ships then?
11.Two (or three) Lions were cancelled to build more carriers (six were originally planned).
12. Oh dear .....another WW2 was all the fault of the Allies German nationalist.:(
 
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I dont think thats true, BW, at least for the RAF. They were building Hurricanes and Spitfires as fast as they could (and faster than Germany was building fighters), and had identified cannon as their preferential armament (just didnt have it working sideways by the BoB)
They also had heavy AA guns in production, but it was delayed due to technical problems.
The main difference was experience and doctrine, since the RAF hadn't all been spending their summer holidays in Spain (unlike pilots from certain other countries...:p)

The French, true , had absolutely terrible doctrine, but that wasnt the RAF's fault...

It is to a degree; certain aspects of the British air build up were late to the party and or ignored rather obvious warning signals... I don't disagree that by 1940 they had shifted to a total war focus and that they where making every effort to make their air force every bit as lethal as the LW; however, in the interwar period they did operate slow out of the gate, and that delay saw them outnumbered (even when combined with the french) at the start of sickle cut 4 to 3; and heavily outclassed in AA guns, ground support ability and over all tactics to say nothing of the glaring doctrine holes in sortie tempo

the argument can be fairly made that the British were overly paranoid about the KM (building more ships in response than they needed to etc etc) and not paranoid enough about the LW in the interwar period; the same thinking applying to the French as well; after all the LW was a critical reason the Germans won sickle cut and case red
 
Even more paranoid about the Luftwaffe? After Chamberlain switched the defence spending from a focus on a respectable strategic bomber force to one of all air defence to prevent The Bomber from Always Getting Through? (Among the main additions to the army, after all, were increasing numbers of AA Guns.) Some RAF leaders may have been behind the times doctrine-wise (as were many in other parts of the force), but the Luftwaffe was respected and feared.
 
Tyrolean’s - The Germans in Italy (1932-41)

Soon after many German Nazis found themselves south of the Alps they got integrated into their new homeland. The most of them was settling in southern Tyrol, since the majority of the people there spoke German. This part was Austrian country before the Great War and it was taken by Italy via the Treaty of Versailles. But not there only, many of them soon get into the Fascists Blackshirt Regiments, a formation similar to the SA in Germany.

It took not too long time until the Italian Army get knowledge of the capabilities of the former military people and starting in 1934 they get into the Army and Regia Aeronautica as well. Some of them get into the Regia Marina, especially for their submarine capabilities.

Mussolini had different thoughts about his new comrades and he did not fully believed in the German Italians or ‘Tyrolean’ as he named them all, ignoring that the Germans came mostly from north of the Alps.

The former main politicians were ‘stored’ in special areas, especially Göring and Göbbels. But these people did not learn the Italian language well, so there influence on Italian politics was minimal. Soon after the new Tyrolean’s were integrated these men wanted new jobs and none of the old Nazis could help them here inside a new country.

When Mussolini got notice of the good behaviours of Tyrolean’s inside the military another solution got through his mind. Since Mussolini was nervous about the capabilities of Italian generals he was getting nervous about the Tyrolean’s as well.

He asked one of his Generals, Bergonzoli about the capabilities of the Tyrolean’s. “How do they rearrange in Italy, now nearly three years after the come to us?”

General Bergonzoli of the Esercito Italiano (Italian Army) looked to Il Duce and then answered: “They were good in their job, that’s sure. After the language problem was solved and since we put them in some regiments sometimes as a whole we learned from each other. Dammed, sometimes they got their ideas; sometimes we could give them ours. All in all the Esercito Italiano is getting better with the Tyrolean’s.”

Mussolini now turns towards the other General, General Balbo. He spoke for the Regia Aeronautica. “Here it’s the same. We got problems in the past, but now some squadras were filled with Tyroleans only and their fight many times as the enemy during trials and manoeuvers. We and they are getting better.”

“So we got special battalions and squadrons filled with Tyrolean, only?”

Bergonzoli answered first: “Yes and no. Today we got for sure four battalions and two regiments in total filled with them. The filled the ranks very soon, after we called them. We use them during manoeuvres many times as the enemy, like the Regia Aeronautica and fight against them. Mostly they win!”

“They win?” Mussolini exploded suddenly. “They win against Italians? Where and how?”

“Last time in April this year (1936), but our officers learned from them, too. It looks like their kind of warfare school taken from Germany is better than ours. Duce, the Esercito Italiano lost many times during the Great War against the Austrian-German Generals, now we could learn from them. And do we have better connections, now? Germany is building a new army and air force, this ‘Luftwaffe’ as they called it. Like our Regia Aeronautica!” He looked towards Balbo, which nodded, too.

“But we do have a second army inside Italia. That is not good.” Mussolini said.

“They were capable and I do not think they were doing problems. Many times I asked them they told me about the warm country here and the feeling of fascist, what they want. May be in the first year, but not know. We could use them for better connections towards Germany and Austria. What we, the Esercito Italiano learned is it worth.” Bergonzoli told his master. “There influence on some issues is good. During one case they ask a Bersaglieri Regiment, why they got so many different weapons in one Regiment?”

Mussolini waited for the explanation and Bergonzoli continued: “In our Army many different weapons were given. We gave the Tyrlolean’s only one type of weapon, mostly the older ones, what is another argument against a rebellion inside them. But this is firing back.”

“Why? Tell me!”

“We gave sometimes squads inside one battalion different weapons for many reasons. So in manoeuvre the supplies were getting out after one fight. The Tyrolean’s got only one type and no supply problem. We have to change that, too.” General Bergonzoli ended his explanation.

Mussolini waited a few seconds and then said: “HHmmm, I thing we could learn from each other, like you said. General Balboa, do you agree on this matter?”

“Il Duce, yes for sure. Our fighters still want to fight for sure and these Tyrolean’s were the enemy in the eyes of them. We learn, they learn. That’s good for both sides. And we could connect better towards Germany, after they soon were getting problems with there Luftwaffe. This time the Regia Aeronautica is better prepared.”

Thereafter Mussolini asked about the Tyrolean’s inside the Regia Mariana. There mainly the experience of some former submariners was taken, but some were getting into the ranks of the navy as well.

Then the Spanish Civil War broke out. The Italian Legion was send and one battalion and a few squadras were sent out with Tyrolean’s only. There they connect later with their German comrades of the Legion Condor.

TBC
Ovaron97
 
Italian Rearrangements of the Tyrolean’s after the Spanish War (1939)
Beginning in 1939, soon after the Spanish Civil War started a rearrangement of Esercito Italiano regiments and Reggia Aeronautica squadrons was done. Most of the Tyrolean’s we put either in the northern part or towards Africa, since Mussolini felt this was required.

Two Tyrolean Regiments (Rgt. Meran & Bozen) were put near their towns after they were named and the four other battalions formed two new Regiments positioned in North Africa. Main idea was to train the Italian units there with a good enemy.

One unit (Rgt. Brixen) was positioned near Tobruk, the other (Rgt. Trient) at Tripoli. Soon after arrival they started trails to learn the art of warfare in the desert.

Fighting under the African sun was different for them. The first manoeuvres were catastrophic for the Tyrolean’s, but after six month their first victory was made.

Together with them some squadrons were send towards Africa. These units learned the same hard lesson, but learned as fast as the infantry.

Both ground units and their flying comrades were used later, when the war came towards Africa. But not to give their lessons learned to Germany, first.

TBC
Ovaron97
 
Why CVL?

Because the port facilities of Germany were not so large as the of their enemies and the KM needed in short time a small carrier. Main idea was removing the Twins (S+G) and putting CVL instead. But I've learned that building a non-hardned deck CVL is quiet easier than an amoured BC!:D

And thereafter the feasibility of a smaller carrier, together with larger one CV, operating in one "Trägerkampfgruppe" or Carrier Task Force was proved (in this timeline:)).

I did not invent Escort Carriers, CVE like the Bogue Class.
I invented CVL's like the Independence Class, based on a CL-hull, like it was done by the US Navy in 1942. Capability around 30 a/c, but the speed of 30kts for fleed usage.

Ovaron97
 
Why CVL?

Because the port facilities of Germany were not so large as the of their enemies and the KM needed in short time a small carrier. Main idea was removing the Twins (S+G) and putting CVL instead. But I've learned that building a non-hardned deck CVL is quiet easier than an amoured BC!:D

And thereafter the feasibility of a smaller carrier, together with larger one CV, operating in one "Trägerkampfgruppe" or Carrier Task Force was proved (in this timeline:)).

I did not invent Escort Carriers, CVE like the Bogue Class.
I invented CVL's like the Independence Class, based on a CL-hull, like it was done by the US Navy in 1942. Capability around 30 a/c, but the speed of 30kts for fleed usage.

Ovaron97


I don't see what the point is... Germany could hit Scapa with regular aircraft; and 30 aircraft is hardly worth the expense and effort of building a carrier
 
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