The Prince of Orange dies at Waterloo

MrHola

Banned
William, Prince of Orange, heir to the stadtholder who went on to become king William I of the newly-formed United Kingdom of the Netherlands, had his first taste of campaigning with an actual command role. An inexperienced young man who made a couple of rash mistakes. This was worsened by his urge to prove himself to Wellington, a man he worshipped as a personal hero. Despite his flaws, the Prince of Orange received much claim for his personal conduct during the Battle of Waterloo, in which he was wounded.

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He would later become king William II of the Netherlands, where he surrendered his absolute power to the Dutch parliament in 1849/1849. Now then. Suppose he died at Waterloo? What would be the effects - both long-term and short-term for the Netherlands?
 
Since the Great Powers had already agreed to the Eight Articles of London and Willem I was already in de facto control of the Low Countries, the death of his heir doesn't endanger Dutch (and Orangist) statehood in the short term. The new heir is Prince Frederik, who was a reserve in the Battle of Waterloo and seemed to be a basically competent but unambitious prince. Thus, he'd do a lot better than his brother in keeping his subjects on-side.

The Belgian Revolution still happens at some point due to the religious, cultural and language barriers that existed between the Netherlands and Flanders and between Flanders and Wallonia (plus Luxembourg, but they were basically happy with anyone in charge). 1848 still happens because it was a Europe-wide thing, and King Frederik couldn't realistically escape the Metternich system in the early 1840s. I don't think Freddy would act much differently to his brother - just let the liberals have their way in return for constitutional stability. Freddy died in the 1880s IOTL so he'd have to face the Luxembourg Crisis as well. apart from all that, all he'd really do is generally do king stuff in an easygoing sort of way.

And everyone marries different people and has different children and all that style of thing.
 

MrHola

Banned
The Belgian Revolution still happens at some point due to the religious, cultural and language barriers that existed between the Netherlands and Flanders and between Flanders and Wallonia (plus Luxembourg, but they were basically happy with anyone in charge).

I am not sure about that: apparently, prince William was the one who bungled the negotiations to such an extent that the Belgian revolutionaires dramatically grew in numbers during the meantime (aided by French "volunteers", no doubt). He defied his father multiple times by his insistence on negotiating, dramatically overestimating his own skills for the latter. I think prince Frederick would just follow his dad's orders and squash the Belgian Revolution before it would get out of hand. This would buy the UKN some time, at least. Thoughts?
 
I am not sure about that: apparently, prince William was the one who bungled the negotiations to such an extent that the Belgian revolutionaires dramatically grew in numbers during the meantime (aided by French "volunteers", no doubt). He defied his father multiple times by his insistence on negotiating, dramatically overestimating his own skills for the latter. I think prince Frederick would just follow his dad's orders and squash the Belgian Revolution before it would get out of hand. This would buy the UKN some time, at least. Thoughts?

Possibly. Or possibly the massacre of the original revolutionaries by Dutch elite inspires a massive popular uprising against the brutal oppressors. If we take your idea (A whiff of grapeshot and the Belgians give up) then yes, that would gain time. But you've still got a very clear line of demarcation between Belgium and the Netherlands, in that the South was Catholic and Industrial, while the North was pretty much the opposite - and the North had basically all the political power. So in 1880 or whenever, most Belgians aren't gonna go "Well, that doddering old King Frederik whupped our grandfathers' arses 50 years ago, obviously we don't deserve the right to autonomy/independence." Its a Poland-style problem: however long you keep these guys under the thumb, they aren't going to suddenly become Dutch, and the next major conflict that the Netherlands gets involved in will pretty much definitely spark an internal conflict between the Seven Provinces and the rest.
 
I am not sure about that: apparently, prince William was the one who bungled the negotiations to such an extent that the Belgian revolutionaires dramatically grew in numbers during the meantime (aided by French "volunteers", no doubt). He defied his father multiple times by his insistence on negotiating, dramatically overestimating his own skills for the latter. I think prince Frederick would just follow his dad's orders and squash the Belgian Revolution before it would get out of hand. This would buy the UKN some time, at least. Thoughts?

not only that but prince willem was supposedly also actively supporting the rebels before the revolution started (couldn't wait for his father to die so wanted to become king of the south).

prince Frederick was not only way more competent, but a completely different personality, a very amiable person, peacemaker kind of person. with Frederick moderating his father i could see that the belgian revolution never starts.
plus add to that that Frederick was rather competent with regards to military business(his mentor for his mil education was Carl von Clausewitz).
and very longlived (died 1881) at that so his stabilising influence will be fell a long time

and this talk about the industrial south of belgium, the financial basis for quite a lot of that came from king william I
 

MrHola

Banned
Weren't most of the southern industrialists Orangists as well? Hell, until 1850 there was a very active Belgian counter-movement that basically wanted to restore the united kingdom. Anyhoo, the 19th century was pretty shit for the Netherlands. Any chance this pod would make it better?
 

MrHola

Banned
Bump for more input. I am well aware this is about a country that isn't the US, the UK, Germany or the Ottoman Empire, but I believe a different monarch can have some interesting effects down the road. Effects on the Luxembourg Crisis, for example.
 
The Belgian Revolution still happens at some point due to the religious, cultural and language barriers that existed between the Netherlands and Flanders and between Flanders and Wallonia (plus Luxembourg, but they were basically happy with anyone in charge).


Hmmm... 'Culture' is a very vague term, but what religious and linguistic border was there between Flanders and the other catholic parts of the Netherlands? Let's not forget that catholicism is still today the largest denomination in the Netherlands, and has always been predominant in North Brabant and many places in Zeeland, Gelderland and Holland proper – none of which seemed to have any inclination towards revolt in 1830 (Limburg beint the exception). If there's any religious difference, then it's more in the sense that the church in Belgium wasn't used not to be the sole religious player.


Also, even in the Belgian case, it should not be forgotten that a significant part of the clergy was Orangist – because of its conservative/legitimist view on politics.


Weren't most of the southern industrialists Orangists as well? Hell, until 1850 there was a very active Belgian counter-movement that basically wanted to restore the united kingdom. Anyhoo, the 19th century was pretty shit for the Netherlands. Any chance this pod would make it better?


Indeed, Orangism as a political force in Belgium only began to wane in the 1840's – even the official Dutch recognition of Belgian independence in 1839 did not stop Orangist to attempt coups at late as 1841. As a political movement, 1848 was the real blow to it – with political power now largely in the hands of a Dutch political elite which never really was that much interested in the 'lost cause' as Willem I & Willem II, and with Willem II fearing that orangist agitation in Belgium could lead to the 1848 revolutionary wave hitting The Hague harder than it did.


So in 1880 or whenever, most Belgians aren't gonna go "Well, that doddering old King Frederik whupped our grandfathers' arses 50 years ago, obviously we don't deserve the right to autonomy/independence." Its a Poland-style problem: however long you keep these guys under the thumb, they aren't going to suddenly become Dutch, and the next major conflict that the Netherlands gets involved in will pretty much definitely spark an internal conflict between the Seven Provinces and the rest.


National identities are not set in stone: they fluctuate according to political circumstances, even Henri Pirenne would aknowledge that. Sure, there was a certain potential for the existing Belgian proto-identity evolving into a strong national identity in 1830, but a lot can happen between 1830 and 1880, or even 1848. Of course, the amount in which a state can 'manipulate' or at least influence the national feeling of its citizens, is dependent on a lot of factors – which is why I don't think the analogy with Poland as a very apt one: Poland differed in both language as well as religion from Russia, factors which are absent or less prominent in the Belgian/Dutch case. Antwerp and Breda are both Dutch (Brabantic)-speaking, catholic cities, which were in that respect equally as different from Amsterdam and The Hague. The North and the South had continued their literary exchange after 1585, so written language was mostly the same, though spelling did give some minor (but symbolically important) problems – the North had introduced the Siegenbeek spelling in 1804, when Napoleon already ruled in the South.


Also, Poland had a much more pronounced pre-existing state identity.


So I do think that The Hague had a lot more room for manoeuvering and winning the Battle for the Belgian Heart. E.g. a Thorbecke(-like) constution could weaken Belgian separatism, as it might satisfy the liberal opposition against Willem I in Belgium. Thorbecke's constitutional revision also ended the privileged position of the Dutch Reformed Church (one of the least fortunate aspects of the UKN), which – together with the reestablishment of the episcopal hierarchy in 1853, would at least ease relationship with the RCC. And there's a lot of ways of co-opting members of the Belgian elite to you.


In fact, everything indicates hat loyalism remained the dominant opinion amongst Belgium's elite (industrials, nobility, administrators) until well after 1830, with the general population probably being lukewarm or indifferent to the whole question, but easily manipulated by both sides in case of economic crises – as effectively happened in 1830.
The resilience of non-elite organism can also be seen in late 19th century socialist writings. Not only is '1830' frequently cursed in the writings of the labour movement's intellectual and political leaders, mainly from Brussels and Ghent (Bertrand, De Paepe, even Anseele), organist themes pop up in labour movement related songs from both Ghent and Liège(!). Of course, some of that may also be part of an 'invented tradtition'. (Those who read Dutch might be interested in checking Maarten van Ginderachter's recent works, as is Els Witte's recent book about Belgian organism between 1830 and 1850)


So while it is indeed likely that there will be some kind of Belgian revolt, but the absence of Willem II's buffoonery might be one of those elements that will prevent it ending in the breaking away of the Southern Netherlands. I doubt, however, that this absence itself would suffice. (France not becoming involved would be nice, oh, and Poland, did you really have to revolt at the same time?). And if the revolt is ended, something will have to change in order for it not to be repeated again.


A minor thing: Willem II dying in Waterloo would of course make his 'Watterloo hero' cult more popular than it was in OTL.
 
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William, Prince of Orange, heir to the stadtholder who went on to become king William I of the newly-formed United Kingdom of the Netherlands, had his first taste of campaigning with an actual command role. An inexperienced young man who made a couple of rash mistakes. This was worsened by his urge to prove himself to Wellington, a man he worshipped as a personal hero. Despite his flaws, the Prince of Orange received much claim for his personal conduct during the Battle of Waterloo, in which he was wounded.

I would like to say that the bad reputation Willem II had at Waterloo is generaly made up by English historian who wanted to deny the accomplishments of the other allies (the various Germans, the Dutch and the Belgians), while claiming the British basicly defeated Napoleon on their own. Other non-English sources, claim that that Willem II was a competent commander. I believe napoleon himself said that he would have won Waterloo if it hadn't been for the prince of Orange. Although this probably isn't true and he only said it to piss of the English, he wouldn't have said it if Willem II was the buffoon various English historian made him out to be.

Anyway, that was Willem II militairy carreer. As a politician and king on the other hand he was relatively incompetent. First of all he actualy did play a major role in the the way the Belgian revolt got completely out of hand. A more competent person in Brussel would possibly be able to either avoid the revolt from spreading or be able to intervene quickly enough that the Belgians weren't able to gain foreign support. Thus keeping Belgium with the Netherlands. Or possibly some kind of deal could be made and Belgium ends up in personal union with the Netherlands or the kingdom is turned into a federation, in which the southern and northern part are autonomous. It was Willem II screwing up that created the OTL rift between the Belgians and the Dutch Royal family. Without him the end result of the Belgian revolt could be very different. Even if the revolt is succesful, it is possible that the Netherlands manages to keep more of Belgium than OTL (like maybe all of Limburg and/or Antwerp).

That said one thing that Willem II did well and is basicly solely remembered for is turning the Netherlands in a democracy. Simply put, he was afraid that the Netherlands would revolt in 1848, was scared and decided to give Thorbecke what he want. Basicly the only political deed he did right. Would his brother do the same? I hope so. Not sure though.

Oh, the Luxemburg crisis would be butterflied away. Without Willem II, no Willem III. Without Willem III and his buffonery no Luxemburg crisis.
 
and with regards to luxemburg, the only reason why there was a continuation of saalic law in luxemburg was on the insistence of (later queen-regent) emma, because she wanted it to go to a family member of hers, William III actually wanted to get rid of the saalic law. so ittl luxemburg probably stays with the netherlands (maybe even integrated in the kingdom?) and loses saalic law sooner or later.
 

MrHola

Banned
Did some more research. Think William's death isn't enough to prevent the Belgian Revolution. Response from the government would go alot smoother though, but it wouldn't be enough to prevent the Polish November Uprising, keeping all those Russian troops occupied, and the French will still intervene. Any other effects?
 
Did some more research. Think William's death isn't enough to prevent the Belgian Revolution. Response from the government would go alot smoother though, but it wouldn't be enough to prevent the Polish November Uprising, keeping all those Russian troops occupied, and the French will still intervene. Any other effects?

We can hardly suppose Willem I will be the same after his son dies in glorious battle against Napoleon.

Dynastic politics were still a minor concern at the time, so various countries might feel they 'owe' the Netherlands just a bit more for sacrificing a Crown-Prince to beat Napoleon (which, I believe, is the highest title of any non-French casualty of the Napoleonic wars).

And, of course, the mythos surrounding Waterloo will be different. Maybe there will be more pro- and anti-Napoleon to the Orangist-Belgicist divide, making supporting the rebels a tougher prospect for Britain.
 
I think the opinion of Willem II is a bit to harsh, considering the Belgian revolt.
Agree he surrounded him self prior to the revolt with obscure types, manly from France.
I do think the revolt of 1830 would never be a revolution if the William supported the civil gaurd/militia of Brussels to restore order, instead he went allong with the revolutionairs.

I do think that, in the event the revolt of 1830 did not materialise in a Belgian independence, he would ne the excelent king to forge the two part to a real state.
William II was a real romantician, loved Brussels (he build a palace there) was much more on his ease in the South than in the North.
Probably after his death his debt would be austronomical, but he will leave a defenitly a mark in the form of grand buildings, palaces and art colections and most likely a very strong influence of the Southerners in the ruling of the realm.
 
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