The Jaguar was a light strike aircraft with no radars, limited other avionics and relatively low powered engines. It's at heart an armed trainer on steroids. To make all the changes needed you'll end up with a new aircraft related to, but very different from the Jaguar.
The PANAVIA Tornado is still born?
- Thread starter Giant Man Eating Rabbits
- Start date
In 1971, the Aéronavale trialled the Jaguar M aboard Clemenceau. The outcome was generally successful but it was felt that a larger wing (15%) and more powerful engines were required to make the aircraft a success. SEPECAT therefore initiated design work to produce a larger wing, with blown flaps and more powerful, dry thrust, engines.
The result was the Jaguar M1. A single-seat naval attack aircraft. The M2 was a two seater trainer version. This was adopted by the Aéronavale in 1977. However, its all weather attack capabilities were limited without a surface search radar. Initial thought was to add the Agave radar to the centreline drop tank and trials were carried out with this configuration but in doing so, limited the amount of fuel that could be carried in the pod and reduced the radar's range due to the vibration experienced when carried on the centre-line weapons station (this produced the unusual effect of effectively "stuttering" the radar, which meant that false returns were detected, so that targets appeared further away than they actually were or displaced in one or two dimensions by an appreciable distance).
The Aéronavale therefore requested a version of the Jaguar M with an Agava radar system in the nose. SEPECAT duly complied and produced the M4. This was a much more successful version and worked well. India, seeking an maritime strike version of the Jaguar was later to adapt this to its land-based license built version of the Jaguar as the Jaguar IM but that came later.
In 1979, the Royal Australian Navy was seeking a new carrier, to replace its aging Majestic Class, HMAS Melbourne. France, sensing the possibility of a windfall sale, both of a carrier and aircraft, offered a revised Clemenceau class, with a slightly longer hull and flight deck, with a commensurate increase in tonnage. The aircraft on offer were to be SEPECAT Jaguar Ms and Mirage F1Ms. However, France was not exactly flavour of the month in the Pacific, with its ongoing nuclear tests in the region and so any major purchase from them was politically unpalatable. The British offered as an alternative a commercial design adapted to a carrier, built to the cheaper and simpler requirements of a commercial hull. They offered the SEPECAT Jaguar M as strike aircraft and as fighters as well.
The RAN decided to go with the British offering, the Australian Government unwilling to spend the required funds for a dedicated carrier design. HMAS Australia entered service in 1982. It carried an airwing of 24 Jaguars and 12 A-4G Skyhawks, Trackers and helicopters. The Jaguar version chosen was the Jaguar MO5, a two seat version of the Jaguar MO (for "Ostralien") equipped with the Agave radar. The RAN felt that the duties required of the Jaguar was more suited to a two seat aircraft, rather than a single seat one.
The aircraft depicted is a Jaguar MO5 of VF-805 Squadron, HMAS Australia in 1983, when it arrived in Australia after its delivery journey from the UK. It is shown carrying a typical anti-shipping strike weapons load of an AM-39 Exocet missile, with two Matra Magic 550 IR missiles, as well as drop tanks. It carries the VF-805 symbol of a chess Knight on the tail.
The Kit
The model is a Hasagawa Jaguar T2 with Hasagawa Mitsubishi F1 outer wing panels and single wheel main gear. The nose gear came out of the spares box. The missiles from the Heller weapons set. The radome comes from a Jaguar IM resin nose conversion (Flightline?).
The result was the Jaguar M1. A single-seat naval attack aircraft. The M2 was a two seater trainer version. This was adopted by the Aéronavale in 1977. However, its all weather attack capabilities were limited without a surface search radar. Initial thought was to add the Agave radar to the centreline drop tank and trials were carried out with this configuration but in doing so, limited the amount of fuel that could be carried in the pod and reduced the radar's range due to the vibration experienced when carried on the centre-line weapons station (this produced the unusual effect of effectively "stuttering" the radar, which meant that false returns were detected, so that targets appeared further away than they actually were or displaced in one or two dimensions by an appreciable distance).
The Aéronavale therefore requested a version of the Jaguar M with an Agava radar system in the nose. SEPECAT duly complied and produced the M4. This was a much more successful version and worked well. India, seeking an maritime strike version of the Jaguar was later to adapt this to its land-based license built version of the Jaguar as the Jaguar IM but that came later.
In 1979, the Royal Australian Navy was seeking a new carrier, to replace its aging Majestic Class, HMAS Melbourne. France, sensing the possibility of a windfall sale, both of a carrier and aircraft, offered a revised Clemenceau class, with a slightly longer hull and flight deck, with a commensurate increase in tonnage. The aircraft on offer were to be SEPECAT Jaguar Ms and Mirage F1Ms. However, France was not exactly flavour of the month in the Pacific, with its ongoing nuclear tests in the region and so any major purchase from them was politically unpalatable. The British offered as an alternative a commercial design adapted to a carrier, built to the cheaper and simpler requirements of a commercial hull. They offered the SEPECAT Jaguar M as strike aircraft and as fighters as well.
The RAN decided to go with the British offering, the Australian Government unwilling to spend the required funds for a dedicated carrier design. HMAS Australia entered service in 1982. It carried an airwing of 24 Jaguars and 12 A-4G Skyhawks, Trackers and helicopters. The Jaguar version chosen was the Jaguar MO5, a two seat version of the Jaguar MO (for "Ostralien") equipped with the Agave radar. The RAN felt that the duties required of the Jaguar was more suited to a two seat aircraft, rather than a single seat one.
The aircraft depicted is a Jaguar MO5 of VF-805 Squadron, HMAS Australia in 1983, when it arrived in Australia after its delivery journey from the UK. It is shown carrying a typical anti-shipping strike weapons load of an AM-39 Exocet missile, with two Matra Magic 550 IR missiles, as well as drop tanks. It carries the VF-805 symbol of a chess Knight on the tail.
The Kit
The model is a Hasagawa Jaguar T2 with Hasagawa Mitsubishi F1 outer wing panels and single wheel main gear. The nose gear came out of the spares box. The missiles from the Heller weapons set. The radome comes from a Jaguar IM resin nose conversion (Flightline?).
Development of the Tornado started at the end of the 1960s, some of the earlier BAe designs that eventually led to Eurofighter date to the mid-1970s. It's tricky but perhaps government releases some R&D funds to help smooth things over?
When you write interdiction what sort of range are you meaning – front lines and just beyond, or something deeper? Depending on what sort of range in km they were thinking about potentially closes off several choices.
If you are willing to pay you might as well buy the jets, paying for development and getting nothing for it is the worst option, and many people will just leave as they dont think the industry has any future anyway even if you were spending the cash?
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Deeper. Railyards, troop concentrations, bridges, airfields, etc. Remember that both the UK and Germany developed specific anti-airfield weapons.
Wolf1965
Donor
The Tornado was, among other things, the designated nuclear weapons carrier of West Germany. This role is one of the reasons the Luftwaffe kept them flying for so long, the Typhoon is not certified for that role.
That role alone meant that it had to penetrate more deeply into WP territory, probably going for railheads and airports. Given that the doctrine at that time asked for very low (and therefore fuel-inefficient) flying that meant a lot of fuel. It also influenced the decision for swing wings, which allowed for a smoother flight among the bushes and the complicated three-spool engines which gave decent mileage.
Given it replaced F104Gs for Germany and not V bombers (or TSR2) could they not have been happy with an F16 like aircraft?
Well deep is a subjective term, and railheads can be various distances from the borders and starting front lines. That's why I was curious about whether any actual distances had been considered, without even a rough specification of being able to carry X armament Y distance we're left guessing to a certain extent.
Wolf1965
Donor
German thinking/development/requirements towards can be seen quite well in the following diagram:
The original Steinhof requirements were indeed for a relatively simple, cheap fighter at a unit cost of 10 million Marks of which the Bundeswehr could afford abt. 700 planes.
The defense secretary, the future chancellor Helmut Schmidt, decided that there should be commonality with the UK and the needs of the Bundesmarine, hence the much larger MRCA which would evolve into the much larger, much more complicated Tornado.
So, yes, a plane like the F-16, at least in concept, would have been something that the Luftwaffe desired. As the plane was about to keep up a German (and/or European) aircraft industry with its own R&D, and it was too early the F-16 itself did not need to apply.
As can be seen from the diagram, short take-off and landing as well as the ability for low-level flying were very high on the planners' list, to things the F-16 is not optimized for.
When the NKF was still a more-or-less joined project with the US the following specs were asked for:
AVS Specs
RVTO: 265nm, 2000lb, internal fuel
STO: 235nm, 2000lb, internal fuel
Max warload: 16,000lb
Speed: Mach 1.2 (SL) Mach 1.6 (height)
Ferry range: 2600nm
Auto terrain following, LLLTV, laser rangefinder.
Development costs: £250 million
Unit cost: £1.5 million (production run of 500)
From USAF presentation & ZE/110/04 (Mintech, 24 Oct 1967)
This document might be worth looking at..
Has this been posted on Whatifmodellers.com? If not, it should be.In 1971, the Aéronavale trialled the Jaguar M aboard Clemenceau. The outcome was generally successful but it was felt that a larger wing (15%) and more powerful engines were required to make the aircraft a success. SEPECAT therefore initiated design work to produce a larger wing, with blown flaps and more powerful, dry thrust, engines.
The result was the Jaguar M1. A single-seat naval attack aircraft. The M2 was a two seater trainer version. This was adopted by the Aéronavale in 1977. However, its all weather attack capabilities were limited without a surface search radar. Initial thought was to add the Agave radar to the centreline drop tank and trials were carried out with this configuration but in doing so, limited the amount of fuel that could be carried in the pod and reduced the radar's range due to the vibration experienced when carried on the centre-line weapons station (this produced the unusual effect of effectively "stuttering" the radar, which meant that false returns were detected, so that targets appeared further away than they actually were or displaced in one or two dimensions by an appreciable distance).
The Aéronavale therefore requested a version of the Jaguar M with an Agava radar system in the nose. SEPECAT duly complied and produced the M4. This was a much more successful version and worked well. India, seeking an maritime strike version of the Jaguar was later to adapt this to its land-based license built version of the Jaguar as the Jaguar IM but that came later.
In 1979, the Royal Australian Navy was seeking a new carrier, to replace its aging Majestic Class, HMAS Melbourne. France, sensing the possibility of a windfall sale, both of a carrier and aircraft, offered a revised Clemenceau class, with a slightly longer hull and flight deck, with a commensurate increase in tonnage. The aircraft on offer were to be SEPECAT Jaguar Ms and Mirage F1Ms. However, France was not exactly flavour of the month in the Pacific, with its ongoing nuclear tests in the region and so any major purchase from them was politically unpalatable. The British offered as an alternative a commercial design adapted to a carrier, built to the cheaper and simpler requirements of a commercial hull. They offered the SEPECAT Jaguar M as strike aircraft and as fighters as well.
The RAN decided to go with the British offering, the Australian Government unwilling to spend the required funds for a dedicated carrier design. HMAS Australia entered service in 1982. It carried an airwing of 24 Jaguars and 12 A-4G Skyhawks, Trackers and helicopters. The Jaguar version chosen was the Jaguar MO5, a two seat version of the Jaguar MO (for "Ostralien") equipped with the Agave radar. The RAN felt that the duties required of the Jaguar was more suited to a two seat aircraft, rather than a single seat one.
The aircraft depicted is a Jaguar MO5 of VF-805 Squadron, HMAS Australia in 1983, when it arrived in Australia after its delivery journey from the UK. It is shown carrying a typical anti-shipping strike weapons load of an AM-39 Exocet missile, with two Matra Magic 550 IR missiles, as well as drop tanks. It carries the VF-805 symbol of a chess Knight on the tail.
The Kit
The model is a Hasagawa Jaguar T2 with Hasagawa Mitsubishi F1 outer wing panels and single wheel main gear. The nose gear came out of the spares box. The missiles from the Heller weapons set. The radome comes from a Jaguar IM resin nose conversion (Flightline?).
And we’d like to have you in the IPMS UK What If SIG.
On the Jaguar: the Indian AF did fit a radar to some, to allow them to carry out anti-ship strike with ASM. I believe they are sill in service. But the jaguar had around half the payload of a Tornado...
Giant Man Eating Rabbits
Banned
In regards to the SEPECAT Jag' couldn't a half decent radar be installed, even it required a redesign of the nose section? I was thinking of the AWG-12 fitted to UK F-4's, the same set as the Mitsubishi F-2, an aircraft with similar dimensions and specs?