The New Order: Last Days of Europe Thread II

chankljp

Donor
Hi everyone. This might end up going to sound like a stupid question, but I got to ask....

I showed up to the TNO sub-Reddit yesterday, and it seem like the place blew up with discussions about Burgundy getting removed from the mod in a future update, the entire 'realism of the setting vs. the spirit of TNO' debate, the and all that. And all I was able to find was a post that ended up getting deleted by what from what I can gather, was made by the former led dev and writer for Burgundy.

... Can someone please explain to me on exactly what the heck happened?
 

brooklyn99

Banned
Hi everyone. This might end up going to sound like a stupid question, but I got to ask....

I showed up to the TNO sub-Reddit yesterday, and it seem like the place blew up with discussions about Burgundy getting removed from the mod in a future update, the entire 'realism of the setting vs. the spirit of TNO' debate, the and all that. And all I was able to find was a post that ended up getting deleted by what from what I can gather, was made by the former led dev and writer for Burgundy.

... Can someone please explain to me on exactly what the heck happened?
As someone who was there to witness it: A redditor posted a screenshot of a discord interaction where a former dev for Burgundy expressed their feelings that the concept of Burgundy was a whole load of nonsense that is better off scrapped. This seemed to get interpreted on the subreddit that the TNO team have decided to do away with Burgundy like they did with Atlantropa (they have not decided on that, at least not entirely) which lead to backlash on the team's seeming absurd hyperfixation for realism even though TNO is based on an unrealistic premise, and the cultural significance of Burgundy for the mod in general.*

*Insert "soul of TNO" meme, but really I would argue that Burgundy was a centrepiece for TNO's popularity getting off the ground initially, what with the whole morbid allure of "Nazis worse than Nazis", as reflected in the prominence of Burgundian Lullaby which many be considered the unofficial theme track for TNO.
 
Burgundy is dumb and lame and stupid that never lived up to the hype that was only only floated in OTL as a semi flight of Fancy.

Let the past die. Kill it if you have to.
 
Burgundy is dumb and lame and stupid that never lived up to the hype that was only only floated in OTL as a semi flight of Fancy.

Let the past die. Kill it if you have to.
Getting rid of Burgundy would be akin to removing the 2ACW in Kaiserreich. Yeah, it would definitely be more realistic that way, but it’s taking something very iconic out of the mod. There was a post somewhere on Reddit proposing a Burgundy rework where the main goal of the campaign would be to take over Germany.
 
This is cringe. If you want a realistic Axis victory timeline, go play Thousand Week Reich. People play TNO for its atmosphere and stories, not because it is realistic. This obsession has killed Kaiserreich.
 
This is cringe. If you want a realistic Axis victory timeline, go play Thousand Week Reich. People play TNO for its atmosphere and stories, not because it is realistic. This obsession has killed Kaiserreich.
Yeah, the whole premise of TNO is unrealistic : "Nazi victories to the max until the German economy and Russia remind Nazi germany of their existence"
The extent of victory observed in TNO is already unrealistic in the first place. I mean, successful Sealion ?
At some point, you have to take the unrealistic, and either accept it, or in some occasions funnier, run away with it.
 
There was a post somewhere on Reddit proposing a Burgundy rework where the main goal of the campaign would be to take over Germany.
On that note, the “origin story” of Burgundy should be reworked so it is founded after something akin to the 1956 Hungarian Revolution happening in France during the WRW to punish France and reward the SS for crushing said revolt, instead of a failed SS Coup.
 
On that note, the “origin story” of Burgundy should be reworked so it is founded after something akin to the 1956 Hungarian Revolution happening in France during the WRW to punish France and reward the SS for crushing said revolt, instead of a failed SS Coup.
Yeah that would make a lot more sense than the current lore on Burgundy. Hitler rewarding the SS with Burgundy is honestly kind of nonsensical. He would never reward betrayal.
 
Yeah that would make a lot more sense than the current lore on Burgundy. Hitler rewarding the SS with Burgundy is honestly kind of nonsensical. He would never reward betrayal.
And Burgundy being founded to punish France for rebelling would also explain why they're so brutal to the French and all that.
 
In my opinion, it’s less about Burgundy being unrealistic than Burgundy being unfun mechanics-wise and just simply bad storytelling. It’s so blatantly shoved into the game as they überpowered North Korea clone that could somehow manipulate global politics the world over as the true puppet master behind everything while also being so intrinsically evil that it literally just wants to nuke everything. To some that may be a compelling story, but to me it just feels totally at odds with the rest of the story that TNOTL weaves. I’ve seen some argue that it fits in the narrative as the real dark heart of Nazism, but frankly I think the Reich more than speaks for itself and it hobbles the entire point just to throw in these mustache-twirling space marines who live in a shadowy state and play everyone like a fiddle. It’s absurd. You could do so many more narratively-interesting things with the SS if you freed them from the shackles of being attached to the tired old Burgundy lore. I would welcome its utter annihilation.

On the broader point of “realism”, I’d say that realism for realism’s sake without having a clear idea of what to do next can harm a mod. But all the complaints about Kaiserreich this and realism that kinda feel flat to me because the lore they’re replacing tends to be incredibly two dimensional even if it pops more on the surface. KRTL’s China rework took away the silly but flashy Qing lore and managed to redo the entire thing so that China is now one of the deepest and most fleshed out areas while actually being more fun to play than it originally was. Atlantropa might’ve looked cool on the surface, but it caused so many problems in the game’s lore that pretty much just had to be ignored in game outright because it was so egregious. If your concept is so thoroughly unimplemented that the ramifications have to be sidelined and only addressed in a few offhanded ways, it isn’t a good concept and needs to be addressed some other way. Same goes for most of these reworks in my opinion. They take lazy and half baked ideas which by sheer staying power have become iconic and redo them to be much more coherent, and more importantly, much more fun and narratively interesting. I mean my god, just look at those political charts that the Kaiserreich teams have produced for British and French politics and tell me that isn’t a million times more compelling than the tripartite Totalist/Syndicalist/Anarchist scheme copy pasted almost identically to every single leftist country with a little minor flavoring sprinkled on top. These reworks require shit to get changed which seems to upset people, but the stuff getting changed is for the most part pretty damned unfun and very poorly thought out in comparison to the standards of modding and writing that many of the major teams have access to today. But I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t understand the attachment people have to certain parts of mod lore.
 
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In my opinion, it’s less about Burgundy being unrealistic than Burgundy being unfun mechanics-wise and just simply bad storytelling. It’s so blatantly shoved into the game as they überpowered North Korea clone that could somehow manipulate global politics the world over as the true puppet master behind everything while also being so intrinsically evil that it literally just wants to nuke everything. To some that may be a compelling story, but to me it just feels totally at odds with the rest of the story that TNOTL weaves. I’ve seen some argue that it fits in the narrative as the real dark heart of Nazism, but frankly I think the Reich more than speaks for itself and it hobbles the entire point just to throw in these mustache-twirling space marines who live in a shadowy state and play everyone like a fiddle. It’s absurd. You could do so many more narratively-interesting things with the SS if you freed them from the shackles of being attached to the tired old Burgundy lore. I would welcome its utter annihilation.

On the broader point of “realism”, I’d say that realism for realism’s sake without having a clear idea of what to do next can harm a mod. But all the complaints about Kaiserreich this and realism that kinda feel flat to me because the lore they’re replacing tends to be incredibly two dimensional even if it pops more on the surface. KRTL’s China rework took away the silly but flashy Qing lore and managed to redo the entire thing so that China is now one of the deepest and most fleshed out areas while actually being more fun to play than it originally was. Atlantropa might’ve looked cool on the surface, but it caused so many problems in the game’s lore that pretty much just had to be ignored in game outright because it was so egregious. If your concept is so thoroughly unimplemented that the ramifications have to be sidelined and only addressed in a few offhanded ways, it isn’t a good concept and needs to be addressed some other way. Same goes for most of these reworks in my opinion. They take lazy and half baked ideas which by sheer staying power have become iconic and redo them to be much more coherent, and more importantly, much more fun and narratively interesting. I mean my god, just look at those political charts that the Kaiserreich teams have produced for British and French politics and tell me that isn’t a million times more compelling than the tripartite Totalist/Syndicalist/Anarchist scheme copy pasted almost identically to every single leftist country with a little minor flavoring sprinkled on top. These reworks require shit to get changed which seems to upset people, but the stuff getting changed is for the most part pretty damned unfun and very poorly thought out in comparison to the standards of modding and writing that many of the major teams have access to today. But I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t understand the attachment people have to certain parts of mod lore.
I think the whole 'nuke the world' part of Burgundy was supposed to be a reference to The Turner Diaries, which if you don't know is an infamous piece of far right literature where the 'protagonists' literally nuke everyone to cleanse the earth of everyone who isn't white and/or non Christian.
 
This is cringe. If you want a realistic Axis victory timeline, go play Thousand Week Reich. People play TNO for its atmosphere and stories, not because it is realistic. This obsession has killed Kaiserreich.
On this specific point, why do people keep saying this? Yeah Kaiserreich has focused more on realism nowadays, but they are actually quite self limiting. Whenever they rework a nation or region, they are sure to keep the general “vibe” and even keep the less realistic parts around if they are particularly iconic. They kept the restored Qing and Sternbergs Mongolia in because both are iconic parts of the mod. They have explicitly stated they are not removing the 2ACW, despite how completely unrealistic it is, because of how important it is to the mods identify. Compare that to the TNO devs, who just kinda remove and rework things regardless of their importance to the mods identity.
 
On this specific point, why do people keep saying this? Yeah Kaiserreich has focused more on realism nowadays, but they are actually quite self limiting. Whenever they rework a nation or region, they are sure to keep the general “vibe” and even keep the less realistic parts around if they are particularly iconic. They kept the restored Qing and Sternbergs Mongolia in because both are iconic parts of the mod. They have explicitly stated they are not removing the 2ACW, despite how completely unrealistic it is, because of how important it is to the mods identify. Compare that to the TNO devs, who just kinda remove and rework things regardless of their importance to the mods identity.
I broadly agree with your point but I really don't think that KR is the example I would use for good reworks.
 
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