There was definitely Chinese influence in the Ilkhanate, like for instance the failed attempt at issuing paper money (which were almost a carbon copy of Yuan banknotes to boot). In Yuan, the counterweight trebuchet was called the "Muslim trebuchet" because the engineers who built them were all Persians brought from the Ilkhanate. It was the first appearance of that sort of trebuchet in China. There was also spread of certain sorts of architecture and possibly other things (I'd need to read up on it again) which was an acceleration of the centuries-old contacts between the Persian world and China (mostly in Central Asia and to a degree coastal China).
The Mongol conquest of Europe
- Thread starter LibPrime
- Start date
You know, this might be very possible and be why the blue and white hordes may become permanently separate.
They converted to the religion of their Turkic compatriots, as long as a significant number are still in the steppe this might still happen. On the other hand, tho it that happens and there's a permanent Blue-White horde split it'll be all the better for the Ilkhanate as they can almost certainly get the support of the European Horde against the Asian one, giving them a much more reliable ally against the Mamluks. Whether this would result in a conquest of the Mamluks I think would be up to speculation but it will certainly make the Crusader states last longer, maybe Baibars won't be able to focus on keeping Nubia down, also letting Christian Nubia last longer and Christianity, especially the Assyrians and Armenians in the Ilkhanate would do so much better.
Hell, we might even see the Ilkhans convert to Christianity due to this alliance tho personally, without a Christian military base(unless they start mass recruiting Armenians and other Caucasian groups) I think it would more keep them Buddhist-Tengrist for longer.
I always thought it would be funnyif there was an English version of the "Divine Wind" storms that saved Japan - a "Holy Blast", say.
While the Mongols don't have the best record with doing naval invasions, England doesn't have the best record in resisting them.
From from archeological times we have Jomon and then Yayoi and that's it for Japanese invasions.
For England we have Mesolithic, Neolithic, indo-Europeans, Celts, a second Celt/Belgas one in the south, Roman, Anglo-Saxon, Norse, Dane and Norman.
While Java doesn't have any historical mainland invasion until the Mongols tried.
So these may not be comparable to England.
Given they used Yangtze River ships in Japan (good ships, but not good for surviving storms in the ocean), they just might use Rhine barges like a certain other would-be invader of England tried (assuming they need more ships than France/the Hansa can provide).
@Arkenfolm @Metempsychosis
Do you guys think that the European Khanate, after a couple of generations, would claim to be the "Kingdom of God/Universal Christian Kingdom" in order to prop up their stability? Do you also think that if a conquest of Britain ensues, would the island split off from the main European khanate? Also would this British Khanate (I never expected to utter those two words in the same line) promote heresy as it would be rivals with the European Khanate who have the Pope's "blessing"?
Do you guys think that the European Khanate, after a couple of generations, would claim to be the "Kingdom of God/Universal Christian Kingdom" in order to prop up their stability? Do you also think that if a conquest of Britain ensues, would the island split off from the main European khanate? Also would this British Khanate (I never expected to utter those two words in the same line) promote heresy as it would be rivals with the European Khanate who have the Pope's "blessing"?
I wasn't thinking the Mongols would make it past Germany, TBH. I still like the idea of Britain and Spain fighting off the Mongols like the Egyptians did IOTL's Ain Jalut.
Definitely this ATL Babylonian Captivity of the Papacy would cause a schism of some kind, between the "free kingdoms of Europe" and the European Khanate.
Not sure. I mean they would be emperors which NOMINALLY means they are the secular rulers of Europe and Christianity. If they did conquer Britain, then it would probably be a vassal state under a subordinate king.
They wouldn't be heretics, they'd just support an Anti-Pope.
Not as much as you'd think. The Mongols were perfectly fine with creating puppet states after all. And the European political system with Pope and Emperor gives them a lot of opportunity to do so, which is why I think they'd take the Holy Roman Emperor title and control the Pope. The mid-late 13th century is an interesting period for that too since the King of the Germans/HRE was disputed between outside lords (Richard of Cornwall and Alfonso X of Castile) so there's a power vacuum the Mongols could easily insert themselves into. One can imagine a crafty ruler agreeing to convert in exchange for being crowned emperor.
So probably all continental Western Europe besides the Iberian peninsula would be ruled by this Mongol state, with the Balkans as vassals (IIRC Bulgaria was a Mongol vassal). If England, Scandinavia (outside of Denmark) and the Iberian states can be conquered, they could be vassal states with reliable rulers appointed to collect taxes.
The only realistic chance (if we are still on planet Earth) for the Mongols to get deep into the HRE was during their Western campaign when the Emperor was Frederic II and his son Henry was alive. And the chance for any type of a strategic success was due to the fact that Frederic was at war with the Pope and his supporting states and did not mind these supporters being destroyed by the Mongols. The problem with that schema is that there were too few Mongols involved in this campaign to do much more than they did even with Ogdai living longer.
A problem with the schemas involving the imperial title is that in the time a (low probability) conquest of Europe could happen the title would go to the Khan in Karakorum, not to the rulers of Ulus Jochi who did not style themselves khans until the Mongolian Empire fall apart. Now, why would the Khan adopt Christianity? It would definitely not help with his Chinese and Muslim subjects who grossly outnumbered the Nestorians of the Steppe while the Christian areas were far away. Anyway, out of two potential “imperial” titles, one of the Emperor of China was
much more attractive and neither logistics nor resources allowed simultaneous conquest in both directions. And on a scale of values the western direction was a remote second if not third, judging by the fact that the troops from Blue Horde had been sent to help Hulagu campaign instead of the imperial resources being used for the further conquest on the west.
By the time the Jochides became independent khans and the territory they ruled became known as Golden Horde (which was seemingly European term not officially used by the Mongols/Tatars), any big scale conquest was impossible due to the lack of resources.
But I quite agree about the vassal schema. It did exist on the Russian territories, in Georgia, Armenia Minor and, what’s more important, this was a well-known official policy. The rulers of the targeted territories were offered to acknowledge supremacy of the Khan and the list included both HRE Emperor (Frederic jokingly answered that he will be serving as a master of a falcon hunt at the Khan’s court but did not say “no”) and the Pope. On the Russian territories, after the princes who rejected the proposal were killed, those with a higher IQ were installed and their title was confirmed in Karakorum (actually, Guyuk appointed to a top position a prince opposed to Batu instead of Batu’s candidate). Only Mongke passed this right to Batu.
Mongols operated on pickings, if you give them an inch, they take the whole Mille, so if they smell blood they will want everything.
And all of that happened because they stole Genghis Bride
@Arkenfolm @Metempsychosis
One final thing of note, how would Christianity develop? If we assume the Mongols did what they did everywhere(ie burn major cities, enslave the population, etc), would that create a shock that'd make Christianity much more collectivist?
One final thing of note, how would Christianity develop? If we assume the Mongols did what they did everywhere(ie burn major cities, enslave the population, etc), would that create a shock that'd make Christianity much more collectivist?
I think the social chaos might lead to proto protestant and dualist groups become prevalent.
Description of the Mongolian activities are more than a little bit exaggerated in a wrong direction and on a rather primitive side. Explicit religious policy defined by Genghis was that the religious institutions of all persuasions should not be harmed and after conquest not taxed. Of course, anything could happen when the cities were stormed but then things would go as they should. Judging by the experience of CA, China and Russia a religion-based resistance hardly was a factor even if because people of pretty much all religions had been present in Mongolian army. And the clergy was reciprocating by demanding that its flock must pray sincerely for the health of new rulers (as happened in Russia).
Stories about all major cities being burnt are typical medieval exaggeration. If this was the case, China hardly would be conquered: as it was: Mukhali’s army operating in the Northern China had more Chinese troops than Mongolian and the whole provinces were voluntarily going on the Mongolian side. In CA stories about complete destruction of the cities with their whole population were coming from the eyewitnesses (probably zombies) and immediately after being razed to a ground, these cities were somehow fully functional again with the merchants, artisans, etc. Ditto in Russia: the resisting cities had been taken by storm (after which most of them had been fully functional again) but those which submitted, like Suzdal, were not touched at all. Now, anybody familiar with the prevailing practices of that time and even all the way to much later times, will tell you that anywhere, including Europe, city taken by storm would be looted, burned, etc. “War without burning is like sausage without a mustard” - Henry V of England few centuries later.
I want to modify slightly what you've posted. Don't get me wrong, I fully agree with alot of what you said but I feel like some other considerations should be added:
1) Based on their record of not always needing to invade new territories as merely the stories of their atrocities would be enough to bring about the submission of many neighboring kingdoms who would otherwise face the wrath of the Khans (pun intended for any Trek fans), I would surmise that Poland, Bohemia and Bulgaria would likely have submitted to the new Khanate, especially if a few dozen of their cities were razed to the ground as a demonstration of the fact that despite their disunity, the Mongols were still a force to be reckoned with. The new Khanate might even acquire new vassals such as the Latin Empire of the Straits, the Empire of Nicaea and the Republic of Venice-who would be very eager to gain major economic concessions from the Khanate in exchange for voluntary submission to the Khan's authority,.
2) Continuing with the idea that the Pope would be executed as the Abbasid Caliph had been, the Catholic Church would become very divided as its likely the College of Cardinals would also be executed by the Mongols, and Rome razed to the ground like Baghdad. If Mongol administration were extended into Italy, Rome could be rebuilt as a Mongol administrative capital staffed with a mixture of Mongol and Italian (see Venetian) administrators. This would nevertheless mean that Spain, Portugal, France and England would be left without the guiding spiritual force of a Pope and in the case of Iberia and the British Isles, I would not be surprised if some local 'grass-roots' beliefs or (in the case of Spain and Portugal) a regression back into Islam were to happen. Keep in mind the Reconquista was still far from complete and the borderlands between the Islamic states and the Christian kingdoms was very fluid. A new synthesis of Islam and Christianity could even arise in these borderlands and start to spread across the peninsula. England couild partially revert to the old pagan practices, and France would in all likelihood borrow from Byzantium the idea of their king also being the Head of the Church. This would mean that Catholicism would become a minor, sect religion only practiced by those few states in Germany and Central Europe lucky enough to submit to the Mongols and thus survive.
3) If the Mongols could conquer Tibet, and cross the Caucasus, the Hindu Kush and the Carpathian Mountains, then Scandinavia would not escape, especially as there is a land route for the Mongols to move across. Assuming they do so, Novgorod would likely be subjected to an assault first. Also, with the Pope now executed, its likely that the old Pagan Norse religion might make a comeback in Scandinavia as a result.
4) I'm not so sure the British Isles would fully escape the attention of the Mongols, given that Dover and Calais are much closer than the Korean and Japanese shores. Weather would likely be the one factor the Mongols might still have to contend with, as the English navy was not as powerful as it would later become. Assuming the Mongols took into their service French, Flemish, Dutch and Frisian seamen and shipbuilders, they could in theory construct a fleet of ships capable of carrying a raiding force across the Channel. London would be just as easy a target as Paris, or Kiev. Remember that despite the failure to conquer Japan, Kublai Khan was able to make the attempt in the first place by taking into his service Chinese and Korean shipbuilders and seamen. If he can do it, so could the Khan of Europe.
5) With a Mongol puppet in Poland and Bohemia, Mongols in Hungary and possibly even Italy (alongside the Venetians and any other Italian states that chose the wise course and submitted) the Holy Roman Empire would become a major theater of operations. If a crusade were to be gathered, it would happen here. However, the loss of the Pope could hamper any such calls to crusade, thus the major 'dynasts' of Germany such as the Wittelsbachs, Luxemburgs, Hapsburgs, etc. would likely either have to forge a series of coalitions to at the very least contain the Mongol invasions, attempt to stand against the Mongols alone (and very likely lose) or submit to the Mongols with some chance of survival and likely become vassals, forced to engage against their fellow Germans.
6) No Pope, no Catholic Church. This means no Reformation as there would already be semi-Protestant faiths established on the periphery of Europe, and the Iberian peninsula either fully Islamic once again or under the new syncretic Islamo-Christian faith. Unless France establishes their kings as popes and manages to rally some of the German states to support this new spiritual leader, Christianity is likely doomed as a major force in history. Granted, it would likely survive in the Mongol territories, but it would become one among many faiths and be tolerated only so long as its adherents continued to pledge allegiance to the Great Khan.
7) Lastly, the later Age of Discovery would be very interesting. Assuming for the moment that England's Celtic Christianity manages to survive any possible Mongol raids, they would have a major advantage in the voyages across the Ocean. BUT, this is also assuming that the close proximity to the Mongol Khanate in Europe would be enough of a detrimental factor that no Europeans would be interested in sending ships into the Atlantic, with the possible exception of looking for a way to attack the Mongol flanks, possibly in league with any surviving Islamic forces in the Arabian Sea. Returning to the Atlantic voyages, England could easily settle the Eastern Seaboard of North America or the Caribbean, with their only rivals at first being the Scandinavians. Should Spain and/or Portugal also start sending ships out to explore, they would also become rivals. I would even dare venture to suggest that the Mongols themselves, using navigators from among the Frisian, Dutch and French, could themselves sail west, hoping for a faster way to return to their native fomeland. The discovery of the Americas would thus open a major new arena of competition
1) How far are we assuming that the Mongols get into Europe? A world where Ogodei lives a year longer and the Mongols conquer Hungary and Poland is not the same as one where they conquer out to the Pyrranes. 2) Trying to run the Holy Roman
Probably. Would that make him the first Pope to die at the hands of an angry empire since Pope Martin I? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Martin_I#Papacy_(649–653))
If I recall correctly, they paid tribute the Ilkhanate in our world in exchange for being left alone; the two cooperated against the Golden Horde and the Mamlukes for a little bit too.
They would definitely get a more hostile reaction than the Mongol ambassadors did in our world. Though somehow I think Buscarello de Ghizolfi would still have a good career. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buscarello_de_Ghizolfi
I think the Mongols had their most distinctive effect on Russia because the Golden Horde's indirect rule built up Musocy as the Khanate's enforcer, creating the Muscovite state as an extractive regime, autocratic regime, one designed to be the strongman of the Khanate - at least until it rebelled and kicked them out.
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I find it unlikely the Mongols would execute the Pope, given there were numerous bishops and church leaders they spared. In China, the Celestial Masters of Taoism were also spared, even if they were subject to government manipulation, and same with Duke Yansheng (Confucius's descendent). Even assuming they do, they'd certainly set up a new Pope in his place who is subservient to the Mongols, and that means not executing the cardinals. In any case, not all cardinals were in Rome at all times, so a number would survive. These survivors could elect a new Pope, create new cardinals, and legitimise the affair with a church council. Now yes, this is not likely to be unanimous and does give kings ample opportunities to interfere with the process, but by no means would the Christian world fall into heresy, paganism, and Islam, not when the Antipopes are politically useful and amply capable of enforcing church doctrine.
Paganism in northern Europe (outside of the Baltic) was in steep decline at that point and had no reason to come back. You also really underestimate the difficulties of invading Scandinavia, or even the rationale given there's barely any towns at the time, let alone cities. The land route is by far the worst since Finland is basically empty, the sea route via Denmark is probably feasible.
While you are correct, the medieval English navy in the 13th/14th century was generally pretty effective at defeating the French and supporting attacks on nearby lands from Ireland to France to Flanders and was definitely a focus of considerable attention. It's rather different than the coastal Japanese ships which were only useful as night raiding platforms and couldn't fight the Yuan/Goryeo in open battle. So I'd rate that as a mitigating factor for the closer distance.
They'd quite enjoy that given the Holy Roman Empire had no clear leader at this point in time and theoretically the Mongols could make one side vassals in exchange for becoming vassal king/uncrowned emperor, which they could later dethrone/invade again to actually obtain the rulership of Germany.
Nope, the Catholic Church exists independently of the Pope. Even if every cardinal was dead, the remaining bishops could just assemble as a church council and appoint new cardinals. And the Mongols openly favoured Nestorian Christians in the Middle East, yet there wasn't any real resurgence of that faith (or Christianity in general), let alone a lasting one.
No, they still would, because there would be profits in fishing and whaling for the English. Being next to the more powerful and hostile nation of France didn't harm England's own voyages of discovery OTL.
The Mongols probably believed the earth was flat because the idea of a spherical earth was practically unheard of in East Asia and also fits their Tengriist cosmology.
Counterpoints:
1) They were willing to execute the last Caliph. I don't see how the Pope would be any different. And assuming that there are some cardinals who manage to survive the razing of Rome, having already begun dealing with antipopes and antikings, its possible that there would be a revival of some old pagan beliefs as people would be too tired of the divisions caused by the Papal-Imperial feuding to give a damn about either candidates. If the Mongols chose to raise a cardinal or bishop in their Khanate to the status of a puppet Pope (assuming they don't give that title to the Great Khan himself even if only as a means of further coercing the Europeans against further resistance. He'd likely strip the title of anything other than a largely ceremonial role, assuming many of the actual duties himself or appointing others to do so.), then while it would induce many princes especially in the HRE to switch allegiance to the Mongols as a guarantee of their own liberties against the ambitions of the Emperor, it would also induce many others to back the "antipope" elected by the surviving cardinals.
2) I doubt that paganism had been entirely extinguished in the 1200s, as the Scandinavian peoples were only just coming out of the Viking Age. While Christianity did factor in the "settling" of the Vikings into a more civilized group, it happened last in Scandinavia as Christianity had to arrive either from Germany via Denmark, or from Ireland and England via the Norwegian and Danish settlements in the British Isles. I still hold that a land invasion through Finland would be ideal for the very reason you stated, the lack of habitation..this equals the lack of resistance on the part of those few who do inhabit the area, aside from possibly the Livonian Order, Novgorod or the Brothers of the Sword..and even two of the three I named were few in numbers and easily despatched. A simultaneous sea invasion of southern Sweden and Jutland is also feasible, especially if the Mongols manage to reach agreement with the Hanseatic League cities (freedom of navigation and self-governance in exchange for recognition of the Mongols as overlords and an annual tribute).
3) Following up on this, it is true the English Navy had been successful at hit-and-run attacks on French shipping. But assuming again that the Mongols managed to make common cause with the HL and Frisians and have made it to the Channel coast, they'd have a fairly large navy which would be able to withstand the English long enough to land a raiding party if not an invasion force. Again, weather would be the major detriment to such operations, however.
4) Here, I agree. Should the Mongols vassalize the Kingdom of Bohemia they'd have the best means of acquiring indirect control of the Empire via a puppet-Emperor. Where I disagree is in the idea they'd then murder him and assume the Imperial title themselves. They'd more likely keep a VERY CLOSE eye on their puppet, looking for any casus belli to invade the Empire, remove their puppet and either replace him with a more pliant candidate or assume the title themselves.
5) Lets say the bishops in France, Iberia and Germany got together in the wake of the Destruction of Rome and Execution of the Pope and Cardinals. They would have a hard time deciding on who would assume the spiritual leadership of the Church. This is why I speculated that areas of Europe especially in the more remote wilderness areas would likely revert to some form of paganism and possibly do what the Anglo-Saxons had initially done: blend Pagan and Christian elements into a new religion. In Iberia, the weaknesses exposed by the earlier mentioned catastrophe would give heart to the Islamic elements still in the peninsula and there could be a re-reconquest of those lands initially lost to the Christians in brighter days.
6) The Mongols would've gained enough knowledge from either conquests or trade to be curious as to whether the earth was indeed flat. In the 1200s, there were still settlenents in Iceland and Greenland dating back to the Viking Age, and should the Mongols learn of those, they would be curious enough to send a small fleet to those lands and maybe further. Just as the Abrahamic religions have been forced to change in order to keep pace with the knowledge being acquired, Tengriism would also eventually adapt. Now I will say that I don't expect the Mongols to start colonizing the Americas right away, as none of the European powers of the time did. They were looking for Asia and just happened upon the Americas by accident and even then it took another two decades to learn that they were separate from Asia.