True but in this ATL Ptolemaic Empire, Seleucids Empire, etc are as not weak as in the OTL. In fact in this ATL these Diadochi states didn't go against each other so often as in OTL. That helped them to stabilise and be much stronger than OTL. West Med is kind of backwater compared to this guys...
The Massaliot league. A Hellenistic period Massalia Timeline
- Thread starter Sersor
- Start date
Skallagrim
Banned
Nevertheless, the presence of rivals is healthy. Massalia will not sink into complacency and overconfidence. They were in danger of underestimating their foes before.
On the other hand, they have to deal with Hannibal for all time. Even though @Sceonn is certainly not wrong that Hannibal is likely to be defeated, of course. My point was more that such a man can exploit being underestimated. The latest update shows how damaging he can be. If Massalia goes war-weary and lets him keep a part of Iberia just to end the war... that would be unwise.
Get rid of him, so Rome stands weakened and alone. Then kill Rome later, as Rome killed Carthage in OTL.
On the other hand, they have to deal with Hannibal for all time. Even though @Sceonn is certainly not wrong that Hannibal is likely to be defeated, of course. My point was more that such a man can exploit being underestimated. The latest update shows how damaging he can be. If Massalia goes war-weary and lets him keep a part of Iberia just to end the war... that would be unwise.
Get rid of him, so Rome stands weakened and alone. Then kill Rome later, as Rome killed Carthage in OTL.
Though to be honest,we have yet to see any Cannae style battles by either Scipio or Hannibal.What Hannibal did seems to be to exploit Massaliot divergence in Italy to march through the Pyrenees rather than being able to do so due to any brilliance on his part.
If Hannibal can win a Cannae-style battle,I wonder if the Romans would renege the peace treaty and jump back in?
If Hannibal can win a Cannae-style battle,I wonder if the Romans would renege the peace treaty and jump back in?
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i don't like this becoming Hellenic-Wank. I like when It simply Massaliot League get leg up
Skallagrim
Banned
Sure, but what's realistic? Was OTL a Rome-wank? As @Sersor already indicated, there are already those who are calling for the utter destruction of Rome. For Massalia, at just makes sense to at least destroy Hannibal. To let him go would be foolish. The Gates of Herakles must be Massalian. A renewed Rome-Carthage alliance must be prevented.
Well said. Indeed OTL was kind of a Rome- wank...
3rd century BC was kind of a Hellenic wank. This ATL is focused to WI no Rise of OTL Rome. Ofc that doesn't mean that the League will always be ok. If no Rome, other powers will rise. So i choose for Massalia to rise. In general in this ATL, for plausibility reasons,i try to use things that happened in OTL 3rd century BC and remake/twist them with different actors.
Ofc there are and some "small" wank( stirrup,artillery) but i try to make them as plausible as possible. Last but not least, we are now almost 100 years inside this ATL, butterflies will fly a lot. Thats why ill write maximum 100 more years of this ATL. After that i think will be really hard to have any plausibility.
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How sad. I was hoping we get to the ATL 476 at least, when the Western Roman Empire.
It will be interesting to watch the confrontation between Western and Eastern Hellenes.
By the way Seleucids soon have to start to change national policy, or will receive rebellion Persians.
Italy map update.
Ligurian,Insubres and Boii tribes are loose vassals/allies of Massaliot League.
If the Romans miracle win, they will be a very long time to hate Hellenes (and all who dances).
I am nitpicking, but you got the Insubres too far northwest and the Boii WAY too large and too northeast. Also, Roman control should be larger in the northeast, unless the Senones successfully rebelled (hard) and smaller to the Northwest, where I doubt they could have subdued the Apuani.Italy map update.
Ligurian,Insubres and Boii tribes are loose vassals/allies of Massaliot League.
You nitpicking
but you are right. Although this in not OTL. For example the area under the name of Insubres, is the area that is under Insubres(massaliot League ally) control.So that doesn't mean that only Insubres live in that area. Senones gain their independence with the peace treaty of 207 BC.About Apuani they were conquered by Romans several years ago(in this ATL).
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207 BC part 2. The battle of Emporion.
207 BC part 2
The battle of Emporion.
In anticipation of the battle, Nikephoros with an army of forty five thousands set up an entrenched camp protecting the approach to Emporion and the rest of the heartlands. Hannibal had successfully crossed the river with his forty thousands troops and set up a camp only about four km from the camp of Nikephoros. Hannibal’s further advance from his camp was made with the river protecting his back and Right.
The battle began with a charge by the Carthaginian flanks. There was a charge on the right by the Carthaginian cavalry wing commanded by Hannibal himself, which broke their opposing infantry leading to a pursuit by the Carthaginian cavalry, leaving the field to unsuccessfully attack the League camp. At roughly the same time, on the Carthaginian left, a mounted archers counter attack by the League, disrupted the Carthaginian cavalry charge on that wing.
Hannibal led a charge to exploit a gap opened in the League left but the attack failed. The League tagmata then charged the first Carthaginian line, while their flanks were still protected. The Carthaginian center successfully and tirelessly pushed back the tagmata.
As the League’s infantry fought, Nikephoros ordered the cavalry on his left flank to attack Hannibal’s cavalry, as expected they successfully pushed back Hannibal’s cavalry, Hannibal then revealed his hidden line of infantry and surprised Nikephoros cavalry charge, Hannibal’s men were ordered to leap up and use their spears(pilla type) to thrust at League’s cavalry instead of throwing them. The league’ cavalry panicked and suffered hundreds of casualties. After failing to reform, the rest of the cavalry retreated, leaving the left wing of the league’s tagmata exposed. Hannibal then ordered in his third line, containing his most battle-hardened veterans. These broke Nikephoros left wing troops, and they fled the battlefield. Shortly after, all League forces rooted back to their camp. After finishing off the remains of league’s men in the battlefield, the Carthaginians furiously attacked the camp walls. The League troops defended bravely, but were not able to fend off the assault. This lead to a bloodbath battle for several hours. Hannibal had won a great victory. He lost around ten thousands and the League almost thirty thousands. While regrouping and preparing for the siege of Emporion, Hannibal learned that another League army just arrived from Italy and was marching against them from Massalia.
Hannibal replied “I thought all this will be enough, yes, quite enough, for the League, but they are even more avaricious”.
Iberia theatre
The dynatoi expedition joined forces with the Callaeci and Vaccaei in Orestiko and marched South.
By place:
Rome
The battle of Emporion.
In anticipation of the battle, Nikephoros with an army of forty five thousands set up an entrenched camp protecting the approach to Emporion and the rest of the heartlands. Hannibal had successfully crossed the river with his forty thousands troops and set up a camp only about four km from the camp of Nikephoros. Hannibal’s further advance from his camp was made with the river protecting his back and Right.
The battle began with a charge by the Carthaginian flanks. There was a charge on the right by the Carthaginian cavalry wing commanded by Hannibal himself, which broke their opposing infantry leading to a pursuit by the Carthaginian cavalry, leaving the field to unsuccessfully attack the League camp. At roughly the same time, on the Carthaginian left, a mounted archers counter attack by the League, disrupted the Carthaginian cavalry charge on that wing.
Hannibal led a charge to exploit a gap opened in the League left but the attack failed. The League tagmata then charged the first Carthaginian line, while their flanks were still protected. The Carthaginian center successfully and tirelessly pushed back the tagmata.
As the League’s infantry fought, Nikephoros ordered the cavalry on his left flank to attack Hannibal’s cavalry, as expected they successfully pushed back Hannibal’s cavalry, Hannibal then revealed his hidden line of infantry and surprised Nikephoros cavalry charge, Hannibal’s men were ordered to leap up and use their spears(pilla type) to thrust at League’s cavalry instead of throwing them. The league’ cavalry panicked and suffered hundreds of casualties. After failing to reform, the rest of the cavalry retreated, leaving the left wing of the league’s tagmata exposed. Hannibal then ordered in his third line, containing his most battle-hardened veterans. These broke Nikephoros left wing troops, and they fled the battlefield. Shortly after, all League forces rooted back to their camp. After finishing off the remains of league’s men in the battlefield, the Carthaginians furiously attacked the camp walls. The League troops defended bravely, but were not able to fend off the assault. This lead to a bloodbath battle for several hours. Hannibal had won a great victory. He lost around ten thousands and the League almost thirty thousands. While regrouping and preparing for the siege of Emporion, Hannibal learned that another League army just arrived from Italy and was marching against them from Massalia.
Hannibal replied “I thought all this will be enough, yes, quite enough, for the League, but they are even more avaricious”.
Iberia theatre
The dynatoi expedition joined forces with the Callaeci and Vaccaei in Orestiko and marched South.
By place:
Rome
- Scipio manages to reach Rome with few hundreds companions after a very hard trip through Alps and enemy lands.
- A military expedition in Cushites lands is organised to settle native Egyptians soldiers far from the Ptolemaic Empire heartlands.
206 BC
206 BC
With reinforcements from Italy and with major efforts from the Dynatoi,Palaioi and Neoi companies, a massive army of fifty five thousands troops marched from Massalia to Emporion. Hannibal after hearing the news and thus heavily outnumbered, decided to move back to Iberia and fill up his ranks with new recruits. After arriving in Iberia, and for the rest of this year, he fought a successful guerrilla campaign against the League forces thus earning time for his army regroup.
Ptolemaic Empire
With reinforcements from Italy and with major efforts from the Dynatoi,Palaioi and Neoi companies, a massive army of fifty five thousands troops marched from Massalia to Emporion. Hannibal after hearing the news and thus heavily outnumbered, decided to move back to Iberia and fill up his ranks with new recruits. After arriving in Iberia, and for the rest of this year, he fought a successful guerrilla campaign against the League forces thus earning time for his army regroup.
- In a battle North-East of Tagus, the Lussitani and Vettones tribes are defeated by the Dynatoi company general Anaxagorix(Gaul/Greek). The Trinovantes mercenaries once more made quite an impression in the battle.
- In a small naval battle the League fleet sunk several Carthaginian ships.
Ptolemaic Empire
- Ptolemy III dies of old age and is succeeded by his son Ptolemy IV. Ptolemy IV immediately ordered his ministers to make serious preparations to invaded and take back Syria from Antiochus III.
- With a mixed army of Bosporus Greeks,Scythian mercenaries/allies and Pergamon allies, Eumelos II led an expedition North/West of his kingdom to deal with the aggressive Scythian tribes that raided his kingdom the previous years.