Romans May have experience sure, but not against the phalanx of the Hellenistic world, but against the likes of Samnites and Etruscans, which use a completely different tactic. And in OTL Punic wars the consuls that fought against Hannibal were quite incompetent, if Phyrrus is even half the general Hannibal thought him to be (and he very likely is at least that) he should be beating off the Romans with ease.....

The only time the phalanx was beaten by the Romans was when it was lead horribly, had nothing anchoring their flanks, or got it self taken over rough ground. At other times the Romans were steadily getting wrecked. In the flat plains of Italy and with great cavalry like Thessalians Phyrrus should be able to do well....

Also the Roman cavalry was quite weak at the time, the hammer and anvil tactic should work wonders here.....
Which is the reason I am thinking that Pyrrhus is probably losing his edge.The guy is getting old,around 59 years old.This is the only explanation I can come up with since Sensor does believe that Pyrrhus is a military genius.The past posts by Sensor also seems to indicate that he believes Pyrrhus is highly overrated.
 
Last edited:
Romans May have experience sure, but not against the phalanx of the Hellenistic world, but against the likes of Samnites and Etruscans, which use a completely different tactic. And in OTL Punic wars the consuls that fought against Hannibal were quite incompetent, if Phyrrus is even half the general Hannibal thought him to be (and he very likely is at least that) he should be beating off the Romans with ease.....

The only time the phalanx was beaten by the Romans was when it was lead horribly, had nothing anchoring their flanks, or got it self taken over rough ground. At other times the Romans were steadily getting wrecked. In the flat plains of Italy and with great cavalry like Thessalians Phyrrus should be able to do well....

Also the Roman cavalry was quite weak at the time, the hammer and anvil tactic should work wonders here.....

Well you have some valid points there but Romans had previous experience against phalanx and Pyrrhus. Last time that they fight, Pyrrhus did better but it's not like that he crashed the Romans. This time Romans managed to go better. After all we are talking about the war machine of Rome during the first Punic war.
Besides this is a ATL. I don't think my version of what happen is extreme.
 
Last edited:
Well you have some valid points there but Romans had previous experience against phalanx and Pyrrhus. Last time that they fight Pyrrhus did better but it's not like that he crashed the Romans. This time Romans managed to go better. After all we are talking about the war machine of Rome during the first Punic war.
I think it's fair to say that we are all quite disappointed by Pyrrhus' performance.We were sort of expecting a proto-Hannibal here plus all the resources Hannibal would only dream of getting.
 
Well you have some valid points there but Romans had previous experience against phalanx and Pyrrhus. Last time that they fight Pyrrhus did better but it's not like that he crashed the Romans. This time Romans managed to go better. After all we are talking about the war machine of Rome during the first Punic war.

Wouldn't Phyrrus have learned as well? Theureophoroi and Thoratikai (spearmen and swordsmen) are used by the Diadochi to great effect and was starting to replace the traditional phalangites and Hoplitai, and they also fight in the way the Romans fight. These troops that are newly available would greatly counter the Romans, and if used well (which Phyrrus can) should be able to thrash the Romans completely.......

Phyrrus doesn't need to be Hannibal, but the amount of backup that he has should more then make up for it....
 
I think it's fair to say that we are all quite disappointed by Pyrrhus' performance.We were sort of expecting a proto-Hannibal here plus all the resources Hannibal would only dream of getting.

This pretty much, Phyrrus was good and he doesn't get shown too much, so it would be nice to see him accomplish more, and I doubt we want a repeat of OTL Rome wank so.....

:p
 
Wouldn't Phyrrus have learned as well? Theureophoroi and Thoratikai (spearmen and swordsmen) are used by the Diadochi to great effect and was starting to replace the traditional phalangites and Hoplitai, and they also fight in the way the Romans fight. These troops that are newly available would greatly counter the Romans, and if used well (which Phyrrus can) should be able to thrash the Romans completely.......

Phyrrus doesn't need to be Hannibal, but the amount of backup that he has should more then make up for it....
Yeah,Pyrrhus definitely isn't living up to his reputation.He's supposed to be Hannibal's superior,but he isn't even achieving half of Hannibal did despite getting all the resources Hannibal could only dream of having.
 
Yeah,Pyrrhus definitely isn't living up to his reputation.He's supposed to be Hannibal's superior,but he isn't even achieving half of Hannibal did despite getting all the resources Hannibal could only dream of having.

Well maybe the time isn't right yet.....

Up to Sersor really....
 
Well maybe the time isn't right yet.....

Up to Sersor really....

I would love to see a grand sudden victory, where Rome runs out of its great generals (that even IOTL were surprisingly prevalent), and Phyrrus storms up the west coast.

Sadly, whilst Rome did have experience fighting with and against hoplite formations (see the Kingdom of Rome), the terrain of Italy and the way the various hill tribes fought makes big pitched battles on a giant field rare. Those were the battles most Greek armies excelled at. That and in narrow passes. I'm surprised by the victories so far, as a better Roman strategy would be to try and cause ambushes and fight on uneven terrain - but I do hope that with their repulsion of Phyrrus they'll overpush and get wrecked.

I would like to provide some defense of Sersor though, whilst Greek armies were Hoplite/Phalangite based, even with the mixed arms, Hannibal had a large number of Celtiberians in his armies, who introduced the particular swords and throwing spears the Romans are envisioned with, which might provide some idea as to why Phyrrus isn't doing so well. - But give him a larger number of Samnite troops, an overconfident Consul could fight on broken ground, where Phyrrus would be (in theory) at a disadvantage, only for a huge Samnite mercenary force to crash into the Roman rear - and opening the way to Rome, with Roman surrender of Magna Grecia, and either Independence for the Samnites, or a King Phyrrus of the Samnites. That would be an accidental bit of statesmanship for Phyrrus, which leaves Rome disadvantaged in a future war.
 
I would love to see a grand sudden victory, where Rome runs out of its great generals (that even IOTL were surprisingly prevalent), and Phyrrus storms up the west coast.

Sadly, whilst Rome did have experience fighting with and against hoplite formations (see the Kingdom of Rome), the terrain of Italy and the way the various hill tribes fought makes big pitched battles on a giant field rare. Those were the battles most Greek armies excelled at. That and in narrow passes. I'm surprised by the victories so far, as a better Roman strategy would be to try and cause ambushes and fight on uneven terrain - but I do hope that with their repulsion of Phyrrus they'll overpush and get wrecked.

I would like to provide some defense of Sersor though, whilst Greek armies were Hoplite/Phalangite based, even with the mixed arms, Hannibal had a large number of Celtiberians in his armies, who introduced the particular swords and throwing spears the Romans are envisioned with, which might provide some idea as to why Phyrrus isn't doing so well. - But give him a larger number of Samnite troops, an overconfident Consul could fight on broken ground, where Phyrrus would be (in theory) at a disadvantage, only for a huge Samnite mercenary force to crash into the Roman rear - and opening the way to Rome, with Roman surrender of Magna Grecia, and either Independence for the Samnites, or a King Phyrrus of the Samnites. That would be an accidental bit of statesmanship for Phyrrus, which leaves Rome disadvantaged in a future war.

The aforementioned Theureophoroi and Thoratikai are Greek examples of the light sword and spear troops like the Celts and Iberians, and I think that it is possible for them to be the equivalent of the mercenaries....
 
The aforementioned Theureophoroi and Thoratikai are Greek examples of the light sword and spear troops like the Celts and Iberians, and I think that it is possible for them to be the equivalent of the mercenaries....

That... that would work better tbh. But, they would need to be in serious numbers. It would be interesting to see Phyrrus experiment, either mimicking the Massalian approach, or using a Theureophoroi/Thoratikai heavy army.
 
To be sure, the Romans did seem to like a good fight. Remember they were almost constantly at war with someone or other over some pretext or other

To be sure also though--it must be rare for them to have the dubious privilege of fighting one of the acclaimed military geniuses of their age, and when they did this OTL, as when up against say Hannibal, they often got owned on the battlefield. The Roman thing was that they kept coming back to the field until they got the results they wanted.

If Pyrrhus can knock them out, yay! But is that in the cards?
 
To be sure, the Romans did seem to like a good fight. Remember they were almost constantly at war with someone or other over some pretext or other

To be sure also though--it must be rare for them to have the dubious privilege of fighting one of the acclaimed military geniuses of their age, and when they did this OTL, as when up against say Hannibal, they often got owned on the battlefield. The Roman thing was that they kept coming back to the field until they got the results they wanted.

If Pyrrhus can knock them out, yay! But is that in the cards?
I think the problem is with Pyrrhus being constantly mauled and even defeated by generals that aren't particularly famous.In particularly,he's already having so much trouble in the first two battles alone.In terms of experience,Pyrrhus and his army should have higher experience than the Romans since Pyrrhus has been in constant war while the Romans haven't really fought any wars since their last encounter with Pyrrhus.It's like hearing Alexander the Great getting beaten by some no name general despite Alexander the Great having an army that's equal or nearly equal in size to the other guy.
 
259 BC. The third battle of Capua.
259 BC


The new consul Florus was impetuous and headstrong and wanted to deal with Pyrrhus once and for all.

The third battle of Capua*

Eager and confident to come to blows with Pyrrhus, Florus took measures looking for a general engagement, disregarding consul Scipio's caution not to attack and organise a defence. Unfortunately for Florus, Pyrrhus was aware of this, and prepared a plan to take advantage of Florus impetuosity. Pyrrhus had noticed a place between the two camps, flat and treeless, but well adapted for an ambuscade, since a dense forrest was covering all the end of the left side, and here he proposed to lay an ambush to surprise the enemy.

Pyrrhus was relying on a network of spies to keep informed of enemy activity. When they told him that the Romans were ready to do battle, he sent one thousand five hundred of the best cavalrymen for a special mission. This detachment of one thousand five hundred cavalry under the command of Pyrrhus oldest son Ptolemy, were instructed to conceal themselves in the other side of the forest under the cover of night, and prepare an ambush for the Romans. On the following morning, Pyrrhus sent the rest of the cavalry to harass the nearby Roman camp and retreat, so as to lure the Romans into a position from which Ptolemy’s hidden detachment could strike at the set time. In response, Florus and Scipio sent out the Roman cavalry to drive them off, and shortly afterwards they sent out the rest of the army. This led to a full engagement and the battle hung in the air for sometime. In the noon Pyrrhus deployed his war elephants, held in reserve until now. The timing with the ambush cavalry was perfect. As the Romans were driven back to the walls of their camp, to regroup and repel the elephants, the ambush cavalry strike them really hard. It was a glorious win for Pyrrhus! The Romans were annihilated. More than twenty five thousands Romans including Florus died and another nine thousands sold as slaves. The Pyrrhus army had around six thousands dead and wounded. After that Capua was again under siege.

* Roman army was near forty five thousands and Pyrrhus around thirty two(ten thousands reinforcements from Macedonia didn't make it on time, but five thousands Samnite allies made it.)

  • In Sicily the Massaliot League advancement continued westward from Agrigentum to siege the Carthaginian stronghold of Lilybeaum. In the North the Greeks with their northern sea flank secured by their naval victory at Mylae, advanced toward Thermae.
  • Ptolemy II after hearing of the victories in Sicily, decided to capitalise against Carthage. An expedition of twenty eight thousands troops, forty elephants and a fleet of one hundred ships(mostly eptares) went to conquer the libya territories of Carthage.
 
Last edited:
258 BC
258 BC

After some months under siege Capua felt to Pyrrhus. Thirty five thousand of the inhabitants were killed or sold as slaves and many works of art were carried off to Pyrrhus camp. Romans shocked from this news, send emissaries asking for peace. At first Pyrrhus wanted to continue all the way to Rome, but the news from Greece was not good. East Macedonia was under attack from Tylisians and there were also rumours for rebellion from various Greek polis. So a Peace treaty between Rome and Pyrrhus was signed. All south Italy was now under Pyrrhus control(mostly via vassals)

Peace terms

The terms of the “Treaty of Capua” designed by the Greeks were particularly heavy for Rome. Both sides agreed upon:
  • Rome evacuates all South Italy all the way up until Capua.
  • Rome returns their prisoners of war without ransom, while paying a heavy ransom on their own.
  • Rome pays a 2,000 talents of silver indemnity in ten annual installments, plus an additional indemnity of 1,000 talents immediately.

War with Carthage

All Sicily was finally under Massaliot League,Syracuse and Ptolemaic Egypt control.

Ptolemaic army conquer all Carthaginian holdings in Libya and was now marching against Carthage itself. Meanwhile, Carthage had build another mercenary army in Africa, which was ready to secure its holdings and repel Ptolemaic army . This army was composed of forty eight thousands infantry, five thousands cavalry, and forty war elephants and partly composed of Celts and Iberians.
 
Last edited:
Nice.Although,I did thought it would take at least another decisive victory over the Romans for them to throw in the towel.Likely a big fallout among the allies over who takes Sicily after the war.
 
Last edited:
Nice.Although,I did thought it would take at least another decisive victory over the Romans for them to throw in the towel.Likely a big fallout among the allies over who takes Sicily after the war.
Well Roman man pool was quite low after the three major battles and Pyrrhus had lots of new reinforcements.
 
Top